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Old Jun 17th 2014, 04:42 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Israel is the aggressor

Recently I had a change of heart about israel and was justifying their actions. But I can't do it anymore. fact is that at the end of the day, the jews dispossed christians and muslims alike. they don't care about the palestinians wanting sharia law or whatever. what they care about is a jewish state.

I think that the palestinians have an unalienable right to return to their land in palestine. jews have a right to live there as well. But that doesn't negate the palestinian right.
So they should both learn how to share the land. And right now the ball is in the Israelis court as it has always been. And they are building settlements and confiscating more palestinian land. Instead of giving more land to the palestinians.

It is shameful to support israel.
and un-christian.
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Old Jun 17th 2014, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
Recently I had a change of heart about israel and was justifying their actions. But I can't do it anymore. fact is that at the end of the day, the jews dispossed christians and muslims alike. they don't care about the palestinians wanting sharia law or whatever. what they care about is a jewish state.

I think that the palestinians have an unalienable right to return to their land in palestine. jews have a right to live there as well. But that doesn't negate the palestinian right.
So they should both learn how to share the land. And right now the ball is in the Israelis court as it has always been. And they are building settlements and confiscating more palestinian land. Instead of giving more land to the palestinians.

It is shameful to support israel.
and un-christian.
Yes, the two sides need to learn how to share the land. But Israel appears to be increasingly uninterested in that at all. They apparently want it all and they are using superior legal/military power to take it - which is why I consider them a rogue nation. If it wasn't for countless UNSC security council vetos by the USA, the UN would have declared open war on Israel years ago (as it would be required to under UN Charter).

That being said, the Arabs/Palestinians are not exactly innocent victims of Israeli aggression. Pinning the blame on one side or the other doesn't solve the problem. Indeed, this is the biggest problem with the issue - they way every act becomes "a win" for one side and "a loss" for the other. This just entrenches the 'trench-war' mindset that appears to be driving the impass. Both sides are still making maximalist demands without any reference to comprimise. That's the language of war.
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Old Jun 17th 2014, 10:49 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Yes, the two sides need to learn how to share the land. But Israel appears to be increasingly uninterested in that at all. They apparently want it all and they are using superior legal/military power to take it - which is why I consider them a rogue nation. If it wasn't for countless UNSC security council vetos by the USA, the UN would have declared open war on Israel years ago (as it would be required to under UN Charter).

That being said, the Arabs/Palestinians are not exactly innocent victims of Israeli aggression. Pinning the blame on one side or the other doesn't solve the problem. Indeed, this is the biggest problem with the issue - they way every act becomes "a win" for one side and "a loss" for the other. This just entrenches the 'trench-war' mindset that appears to be driving the impass. Both sides are still making maximalist demands without any reference to comprimise. That's the language of war.
you are right. They both need to learn to compromise to live together in the same land.

I have been saying this for years:
the Palestinians get the west bank, gaza, east jerusalem and a lot of financial compensations so that they don't exercise their right to return to the state of Israel and to have a standing army. In return israel gets a state that with peace.

but fact is that both sides don't want to compromise on anything. For years I thought that such a solution would satisfy israel, but from the way they are settling the west bank, it doesn't seem that they want to share any part of the land. same arguments can be said about the arabs.
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Old Jun 17th 2014, 12:56 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

Jews can be... assertive, when they have the power. In the 90s here in Russia, Jewish oligarchs like Boris Berezovsky controlled the Yeltsin government


Back then, there were khanukah celebrations on Red Square, if you can believe it


When Putin came to power, the Orthodox Church rose with him


Now, it is hilarious, Jewish oligarchs, like Gazprom Chairman Miller, have become observant, church going Orthodox believers



That is Jews, my friend. They know how to adapt to any change in society for own benefit
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Old Jun 17th 2014, 05:54 PM
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Don't they have tailors in Russia? For the CEO of Gazprom and a couple of his top execs, those are pretty cheap and ill-fitting suits.

All three guys look like they are wearing off the rack "2 for 1" polyester specials. (3 for 1 in this case!)
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 08:20 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

There's a lengthy article that begins on the front page of the Times-Union, Jacksonville, Florida, today titled "Gaza Strip stirs debate here, too."

It presents both side of the Gaza conflict.

Local Rabbi, Shmuli Novack who recently returned from Israel is quoted as saying "there's no excuse for Hamas purposely firing rockets at civilians" and "There are answers I do not know. But I do know we have a responsibility to defend our children and our communities."

Local man John Rukab, whose parents came from the West Bank, "said that the only answer is for Israel to let Palestine be an independent state....If Israel would do that, Hamas wouldn't need to attack."

The article referred to "...Hamas, the Palestinian resistance movement." That phrase alone should tell you that this was not an Associated Press piece. It was written by Andrew Pantazi of the Times-Union.

On page 6 is another lengthy article, this one from the Associated Press titled Israel's march in Gaza could last up to two weeks.."

The article parrots the State Department line that the Israeli invasion is a logical attempt to stop Hamas aggression, that Hamas uses cowardly "human sheilds," and so on.

It's nice that the explanation favored by almost the whole world except for the US and Israel is also included, for a change.
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Old Jul 19th 2014, 08:42 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
There's a lengthy article that begins on the front page of the Times-Union, Jacksonville, Florida, today titled "Gaza Strip stirs debate here, too."

It presents both side of the Gaza conflict.

Local Rabbi, Shmuli Novack who recently returned from Israel is quoted as saying "there's no excuse for Hamas purposely firing rockets at civilians" and "There are answers I do not know. But I do know we have a responsibility to defend our children and our communities."

Local man John Rukab, whose parents came from the West Bank, "said that the only answer is for Israel to let Palestine be an independent state....If Israel would do that, Hamas wouldn't need to attack."

The article referred to "...Hamas, the Palestinian resistance movement." That phrase alone should tell you that this was not an Associated Press piece. It was written by Andrew Pantazi of the Times-Union.

On page 6 is another lengthy article, this one from the Associated Press titled Israel's march in Gaza could last up to two weeks.."

The article parrots the State Department line that the Israeli invasion is a logical attempt to stop Hamas aggression, that Hamas uses cowardly "human sheilds," and so on.

It's nice that the explanation favored by almost the whole world except for the US and Israel is also included, for a change.
Facts:
1- Hamas is a terrorist organisation whose goal is to liberate all palestinian lands from Israeli occupation. These lands include those that are known as Israel proper.
2- This latest round of violence was started by Israel when they killed innocent Palestinian youth and burned their bodies.

The world is beginning to rise up against the reality of Israeli aggression and in doing so they are becoming more sympathetic to groups like Hamas. I mean if you are being oppressed by such an overwhelming force, then you would become extreme in your positions and resort to terrorism to achieve them. As such the position of Hamas is more excusable than that of Israel.
For years people in America and elsewhere used to buy into the idea that Israel defends herself against those who want to destroy her. But after they have seen the scale of the violence that she inflicts on other nations, people are reconsidering their positions.
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Old Jul 21st 2014, 05:48 PM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
Facts:
1- Hamas is a terrorist organisation whose goal is to liberate all palestinian lands from Israeli occupation. These lands include those that are known as Israel proper.
2- This latest round of violence was started by Israel when they killed innocent Palestinian youth and burned their bodies.

The world is beginning to rise up against the reality of Israeli aggression and in doing so they are becoming more sympathetic to groups like Hamas. I mean if you are being oppressed by such an overwhelming force, then you would become extreme in your positions and resort to terrorism to achieve them. As such the position of Hamas is more excusable than that of Israel.
For years people in America and elsewhere used to buy into the idea that Israel defends herself against those who want to destroy her. But after they have seen the scale of the violence that she inflicts on other nations, people are reconsidering their positions.

Here is a possible scenario:

There is no love lost between Netanyahu's Likud Party and Obama. Netanyahu actively endorsed Romney in the last election, and has criticized Obama in visits to the US Congress and elsewhere.

After the November mid-term Congressional elections Obama will be a true lame duck. He will no longer have to worry about AIPAC lobby retribution against the Democrats, and can simply direct UN Rep Samantha Power and John Kerry to announce that the US, like almost the entire world, now recognizes Palestine as a nation within its 1967 borders.

Then, with Gaza and the West Bank no longer within Israel as occupied territory, it might be easier for Israel to defend its borders. The Arab League has said it would help guarantee those borders, and of course the US would help, along with its NATO allies.

This would deny the Likud Party their vision of a Greater Israel up to the Jordan River as promised in their party platform, but it would amount to a compromise with those Palestinians who have argued for a "right of return" back to the land they originally owned before the creation of modern Israel.

And, it would be a terrific slap in the face pay-back to Netanyahu and to US neoconservatives. I would love it. ( And I think that Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter would, too.)
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Last edited by Tom Palven; Jul 21st 2014 at 05:52 PM.
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Old Jul 22nd 2014, 01:32 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Here is a possible scenario:

There is no love lost between Netanyahu's Likud Party and Obama. Netanyahu actively endorsed Romney in the last election, and has criticized Obama in visits to the US Congress and elsewhere.

After the November mid-term Congressional elections Obama will be a true lame duck. He will no longer have to worry about AIPAC lobby retribution against the Democrats, and can simply direct UN Rep Samantha Power and John Kerry to announce that the US, like almost the entire world, now recognizes Palestine as a nation within its 1967 borders.

Then, with Gaza and the West Bank no longer within Israel as occupied territory, it might be easier for Israel to defend its borders. The Arab League has said it would help guarantee those borders, and of course the US would help, along with its NATO allies.

This would deny the Likud Party their vision of a Greater Israel up to the Jordan River as promised in their party platform, but it would amount to a compromise with those Palestinians who have argued for a "right of return" back to the land they originally owned before the creation of modern Israel.

And, it would be a terrific slap in the face pay-back to Netanyahu and to US neoconservatives. I would love it. ( And I think that Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter would, too.)
your scenario is as likely as hell freezing over.
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Old Jul 22nd 2014, 05:27 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Israel is the aggressor

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
your scenario is as likely as hell freezing over.
What do you envision happening over the long term?
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