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  #51  
Old Aug 14th 2011, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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Originally Posted by The_Dot View Post
I do not see anything in that article which justifies, or even remotely explains the grinning jackass on Facebook posing with his stolen loot.
No one is trying to justify anything. Proper analysis seeks to understand the phenomenum in question.

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Pray, can you explain the behavior? It seems to me there is no justification or explanation, just feeble excuse. But I could be wrong.
Explain the behavior? What part of a riot needs explanation? And why? A riot is a riot.

Indeed, I think the Telegraph link that Donkey posted explains what was going on rather well.
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  #52  
Old Aug 14th 2011, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Btw, here's an interesting discussion of "The Mob" that Margot linked me to a while back.


http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/02/10/deindividuation/
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  #53  
Old Aug 14th 2011, 09:11 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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I don't think ANYONE is trying to justify the behavior. As for explaining it, I think it explains it pretty well, but that's a matter of perception I suppose.
Nothing justifies or explains attacking innocent people, looting and robbing businesses.

It does not matter if you are poor, or you have no education. I was poor and had no education when I came to Moscow. I know many who were the same way. But they did not turn to crime, even when they were desperate.

I'll give you a famous (famous here, anyway) example.

Once, a few years ago, two young men came to Moscow as migrant workers. Mikhail Galustian, 24 years old at the time, came from Armenia,
and Valeriy Magdyash, 28 - from Moldova. They worked on construction. Eventually, they met in a make-shift dorm house in a basement they both lived in. They became friends. As it turned out, they both had a passion for singing and acting. Their common dream became to make a film about the lives of gastarbaiters (migrant workers) in Russia. One time they were both a part of a team of workers hired to build a new sauna/pool house at the dacha of well-known
producer Semyon Slepakov. While they were working there, Mikhail put all his courage together and actually approached Slepakov and told him of his idea. Slepakov actually liked it.

Well, today Galustian and Magdyash are TV stars. Their comedy show 'Nasha Russia' ('Our Russia'), about gastarbaiters, is a hit, it is now in its fifth installment, and several full films have also been made from it


Galustian on the left, Magdyash on right.



They made good lives for themselves, but also, through humour, they bring attention to the lives of other gastarbaiters, the problems and hardships they face, etc. Though, I will admit: this show is controversial: many groups and activists that work to defend and help the migrant workers, including my wife, say 'Nasha Russia' relies on crude stereotypes and makes fun of gastarbaiters. But, that is a matter of some other discussion. What I am trying to say is, even in this society, with luck and determination, you can make things happen for you. I am sure it is even easier in prosperous Britain, let alone America.

Those criminals have no excuse.
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  #54  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 12:24 AM
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NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

MeMyselfandI, the story about Mikhail Galustian and Valeriy Magdyash, would not have been famous, if their achievements had been something that everyone could do. A small minority of people have the strength to do what they did, but only a small minority.
And even if everyone DID have the strength, there is only room for so many such success stories.
You don't need to print stories like this, just point to any Brazilian footballer - it's okay to be living on the streets, because you can always train and become world-class footballer, and if you aren't good enough at football, that's your fault.
Your story is utterly unhelpful.
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  #55  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 12:02 PM
The_Dot The_Dot is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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No one is trying to justify anything. Proper analysis seeks to understand the phenomenum in question.
It seems to me that there are two possibilities.

One, he could be a disaffected youth who isn't being given enough, or
Two, he's a thieving POS.

Personally, I'll go with #2 on this one.
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  #56  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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Originally Posted by The_Dot View Post
It seems to me that there are two possibilities.

One, he could be a disaffected youth who isn't being given enough, or
Two, he's a thieving POS.

Personally, I'll go with #2 on this one.
And every single person who went out and rioted is just a thieving POS?
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  #57  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 02:34 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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Originally Posted by NickKIELCEPoland View Post
MeMyselfandI, the story about Mikhail Galustian and Valeriy Magdyash, would not have been famous, if their achievements had been something that everyone could do. A small minority of people have the strength to do what they did, but only a small minority.
And even if everyone DID have the strength, there is only room for so many such success stories.
You don't need to print stories like this, just point to any Brazilian footballer - it's okay to be living on the streets, because you can always train and become world-class footballer, and if you aren't good enough at football, that's your fault.
Your story is utterly unhelpful.
Oh there are many stories. There was a homeless man in Novosibirsk who saved money from bottles he collected and returned and, believe it or not, taught himself to buy and sell stock. In two years, he made enough money to get himself a decent apartment.

Although I concede this: Russia is a unique country in that our homeless are among the most well-educated on the planet. Former Soviet university professors are now living on the street, such are the times. One street man I regularly pass near the garages, on my way to work, I always see him reading Dostoevski or Tolstoy... Seriously. It is strange and also somewhat shameful IMHO
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  #58  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 02:36 PM
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NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

MeMyselfandI, I know there are many stories. Every Brazilian football star is a story just like what you tell.

But the stories are just a tiny tiny tiny percentage of the global poor.
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  #59  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 03:44 PM
The_Dot The_Dot is offline
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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And every single person who went out and rioted is just a thieving POS?
If they were rioting, as opposed to protesting, yes.

Burning buildings, beating people and stealing things is rioting, and has nothing whatsoever to do with protesting.

What do you call this proud thief's activities?
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  #60  
Old Aug 15th 2011, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Urban Violence in London

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Originally Posted by The_Dot View Post
It seems to me that there are two possibilities.

One, he could be a disaffected youth who isn't being given enough, or
Two, he's a thieving POS.

Personally, I'll go with #2 on this one.
Sure. But one 'thieving POS' does not a riot make. I should think that most thieves are opportunists - if a riot is going on, that's a good time to go stealing. But thieves didn't create or sustain the riot in a half-dozen cities for several days - they are just one element of the participants.

That is to say, a major riot occured in UK - regardless if any opportunistic thieves did some 'smash & grab' on high street shops. Thus, it is interesting and worthy of analysis is why the riot took place in the first place - not the actions of any given individual thief who may have participated. Indeed, opportunist thieves are a dime a dozen and quite predictable.
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