Discussion World Forum  


Go Back   Discussion World Forum > Politics & Current Events > World Politics (Non-US)

World Politics (Non-US) For discussions of politics, issues and elections from around the world.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 06:17 PM
The Drunk Guy's Avatar
The Drunk Guy The Drunk Guy is offline
Bad Motherfucker
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 'Round back
Posts: 2,339
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
I think that's a rather simplistic and erroneous description of the Fall of the Roman Empire.
I picture fat Romans being carried into battle on pillowed palanquins powered by weak, eunich slaves. Sword in one hand and a hunk of meat in the other.
__________________
Vae, puto deus fio...
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 07:48 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,820
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Drunk Guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI View Post
Well, I suppose ancient Greece had the same problem.

And that's one reason Constantinople is called Istanbul today. I believe all great empires fell when their peoples softened in their bodies and their convictions. Roman Empire fell to the barbarians because fat, spoiled Romans could not fight back against the barbarians raw, savage power.
I think that's a rather simplistic and erroneous description of the Fall of the Roman Empire.
I picture fat Romans being carried into battle on pillowed palanquins powered by weak, eunich slaves. Sword in one hand and a hunk of meat in the other.


To be very brief, the [Western] Roman Empire's armies were, for several centuries [post 180AD], almost entirely filled with the same raw barbarian savages as they were fighting against. Indeed, the best and most dangerous barbarians were the double-turncoats - the ones who became Roman mercenaries and advanced to became Roman-trained generals and then turned back to lead the barbarian armies against Rome.

But no, Western Rome never really failed militarily (though this is debatable). The key to Western Rome's fall was entirely economic - before the split of the Empire, 75% of the tax revenue came from the Eastern half but 75% of the army was based in the Western half. Btw, the army made up about 90% of the cost of the Roman state (a standing army of 300,000-350,000 troops). Once the Empire split, the Western half was doomed - they needed a HUGE army and they couldn't afford to pay for one. They held on rather bravely for a couple centuries but the writing was on the wall for the Western Roman Empire.

I think if the accusation of 'softness' is to be made against the Roman Empire, it may perhaps be the Eastern Roman Empire (aka the Byzantines) to whom it might apply - as they really did seem to 'fold' under the pressure from the Arabs and Turks in the 10th-11th century (Constantinople was even sacked by Western Crusaders in the 12th century - supposedly coming to 'help' the Byzantines!). Again, they held on bravely for another four centuries after all those losses under difficult odds, so it is hard to accuse them of 'softness' either.
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 08:30 PM
Americano's Avatar
Americano Americano is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,614
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
And then came Vietnam and people learned that the state/government authorities can and will lie to the people. All the goodwill faith in authority just went out the window. Now if a school principal wants to discipline a student, I want to know if the Principal is just doing it cover his ass, or to cover-up some other administration failing or if it is his own fetish. The thought that an authority figure might be motivated by the honor of doing the right thing doesn't even occur to me - their track record is just so bad that it seems as if anyone who trusts authority figures is either ignorant or stupid. There is just too much evidence out there.

And that's why kids don't get physically punished at school - no one trusts the judgement of authority figures any more - with good reason - they lie and they will sacrifice your kid to protect their own skins/jobs/prestige.
That was a small part of it, the major change being publicized sociologists constructing perfect scenarios for raising middle-class children in an ideal family home/school which included adamant condemnation of using physical force in disciplining children.

First came the 'time out' where a child was placed facing a wall to 'contemplate' a misdeed. That didn't seem to be working as there was still a large percentage of parents not raising children under ideal circumstances and ongoing incidents of child abuse. Children under legal age were then given rights to report a parent who physically struck them and such parents faced jail time for doing so with no questions asked. No big surprise, child abuse didn't drop but many parents were discovering their sweet darlings were turning into uncontrollable social monsters and nightmare teenagers/young adults. Many US public schools are little more than very expensive detention camps.

The one size fits all social engineering failure syndrome.

Not everyone lives in a carefully constructed, perfect scenario. Most don't. Some kids do need their asses kicked to recognize the often drastic difference between right and wrong.
__________________
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
~H.L. Mencken~
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 08:35 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,820
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
That was a small part of it, the major change being publicized sociologists constructing perfect scenarios for raising middle-class children in an ideal family home/school which included adamant condemnation of using physical force in disciplining children.
Yes, that's true - I forgot that came out at pretty much exactly the same time period.

The combination was a powerful one.
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 09:27 PM
Americano's Avatar
Americano Americano is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,614
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post


To be very brief, the [Western] Roman Empire's armies were, for several centuries [post 180AD], almost entirely filled with the same raw barbarian savages as they were fighting against. Indeed, the best and most dangerous barbarians were the double-turncoats - the ones who became Roman mercenaries and advanced to became Roman-trained generals and then turned back to lead the barbarian armies against Rome.

But no, Western Rome never really failed militarily (though this is debatable). The key to Western Rome's fall was entirely economic - before the split of the Empire, 75% of the tax revenue came from the Eastern half but 75% of the army was based in the Western half. Btw, the army made up about 90% of the cost of the Roman state (a standing army of 300,000-350,000 troops). Once the Empire split, the Western half was doomed - they needed a HUGE army and they couldn't afford to pay for one. They held on rather bravely for a couple centuries but the writing was on the wall for the Western Roman Empire.
My history lessons on that era were long ago but wasn't the end hastened by extended drought creating repeated crop failures in much of the empire resulting in drastically reduced tax revenue in the form of grain also used as the primary diet of the legions? I know the legions ate anything they could get their hands on including all types of meat but remember grain tax being the economic basis of ongoing occupation loot. Soldiers not paid or fed quickly change loyalties.

Quote:
I think if the accusation of 'softness' is to be made against the Roman Empire, it may perhaps be the Eastern Roman Empire (aka the Byzantines) to whom it might apply - as they really did seem to 'fold' under the pressure from the Arabs and Turks in the 10th-11th century (Constantinople was even sacked by Western Crusaders in the 12th century - supposedly coming to 'help' the Byzantines!). Again, they held on bravely for another four centuries after all those losses under difficult odds, so it is hard to accuse them of 'softness' either.
__________________
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
~H.L. Mencken~
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 09:57 PM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

The idea that you have to beat your child to make them turn into a decent human being is absolutely ludicrous.

Indeed, these kids that all y'all are gleefully and arrogantly disparaging probably saw more than their fair share of parental "physical discipline."

Jfc.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 11:45 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 6,453
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
The idea that you have to beat your child to make them turn into a decent human being is absolutely ludicrous.

Indeed, these kids that all y'all are gleefully and arrogantly disparaging probably saw more than their fair share of parental "physical discipline."

Jfc.
It is not about 'beating'. It is about instilling in them a healthy respect for authority, for their elders, and their community.

And those children who rioted in Britain did not have enough of any of those, at least partly due to a society that encourages over-coddling, spoiling and impunity from parents; and culture of entitlement, selfishness, yes indeed, arrogance from those children. A society, a civilization, where underaged children can SUE their parents for disciplining them... is doomed. That's it.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old Aug 16th 2011, 11:56 PM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

What constitutes discipline? A spanking? A belting? A 2x4?

Sorry, but that's a load of shit. If you can't raise your kids to behave without beating them, you are a bad parent.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old Aug 17th 2011, 03:55 AM
NickKIELCEPoland's Avatar
NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8,080
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

MeMyselfandI how has Russian society benefitted from your idea of disciplining children?
__________________
Europe
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old Aug 17th 2011, 09:32 AM
The_Dot The_Dot is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 431
Default Re: Urban Violence in London

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
The idea that you have to beat your child to make them turn into a decent human being is absolutely ludicrous.

Indeed, these kids that all y'all are gleefully and arrogantly disparaging probably saw more than their fair share of parental "physical discipline."

Jfc.
I don't see anything "arrogant" in disparaging the actions of thieves, murderers and arsonists.

As far as glee, I don't see any here. Sympathy for the true victims, but no glee.

The true victims here are the shop owners and residents who had their livelihoods stolen, or their homes burned to the ground.

But hey, that's the cost of "sticking it to the man", eh?
__________________

I am the 0.00000033%
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008 - 2017, DiscussionWorldForum.com