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  #71  
Old Nov 1st 2014, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
The key sentence in that law is:
"...Where a police officer has reasonable and probable grounds to believe..."
The typical cop has zero knowledge of psychology, let alone psychiatry. The typical cop will 'believe' this on prejudice, bigotry or just plain mischievous grounds. I bet you 1,000 that cops have used this law to eliminate love rivals, left wing protesters, or anyone who pisses them off for whatever reason. Getting picked up under a mental health issue even once is enough to destroy a life or a career no matter what the ensuing evaluation says.
You cited the relevant law in Ontario. Police have only the power to turn over the mentally ill suspect for psychiatric evaluation.

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And it's one of the most persistent myths in Western middle class circles that incarceration under a mental health act is 'softer', a privilege or something of that kind. One's a hundred times better of doing jail time. The typical outcome of incarceration under a mental health act is that the 'pampered' subject is permanently drugged up to his or her eyeballs (Big Pharma's got to make a living), has no recourse to legal assistance, gets no visits from human rights, charity or religious organizations and has no prospects of anything similar to parole. In short, such people tend to be left vegetating for an indefinite time, not unusually until death.
Again, you cited the relevant legislation and that makes it illegal do what you are saying is routinely done here.
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  #72  
Old Nov 3rd 2014, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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What are police officers to act on in the moment if not their own "reasonable and probable" beliefs?
Knowledge of psychology instead of beliefs. Cops are literally incompetent to make these kinds of evaluations. That they defer the apprehended people to an institution doesn't change that. Once apprehended there is already a bias towards labeling that person as mentally ill. If the institution has financial incentives in declaring people mentally ill, it's a done deal.

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Any power given to the police is liable to be abused, but surely it would be odd for the law to read that if an officer "believes" someone is behaving violently, is mentally ill, and is likely to cause bodily injury to someone else, he/she should NOT take them into custody.
These are completely subjective impressions. Note that the law doesn't require for anything violent to have happened. You can use that against everyone at any time. It's the equivalent of a pre-emptive war.

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I'm dubious as to the typicality of such treatment...

But then I'm not familiar with this subject, so maybe I should be more freaked out then I am.
Nearly everyone who's unfamiliar with the field will have the same reaction as you. Nearly no one who's familiar with it would.
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  #73  
Old Nov 3rd 2014, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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You cited the relevant law in Ontario. Police have only the power to turn over the mentally ill suspect for psychiatric evaluation.
See previous post, and specifically note that there doesn't have to be violence, only the subjective and incompetent opinion of a cop that there might be.

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Again, you cited the relevant legislation and that makes it illegal do what you are saying is routinely done here.
Sorry, that sentence seems to lack a word or two?
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  #74  
Old Nov 3rd 2014, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Knowledge of psychology instead of beliefs. Cops are literally incompetent to make these kinds of evaluations. That they defer the apprehended people to an institution doesn't change that. Once apprehended there is already a bias towards labeling that person as mentally ill. If the institution has financial incentives in declaring people mentally ill, it's a done deal.

These are completely subjective impressions. Note that the law doesn't require for anything violent to have happened. You can use that against everyone at any time. It's the equivalent of a pre-emptive war.
So I can see a case for demanding the police be better trained in recognizing mental illness, but that training will always be very imperfect; it's impractical to make all police officers psychologists. But however well trained, in the moment on the street, the officer must try to make a reasonable (albeit subjective) evaluation. If that evaluation is "This guy is mentally unstable, acting violently, and about to hurt people," it would strike me as unconscionable for the police to do nothing.

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Nearly everyone who's unfamiliar with the field will have the same reaction as you. Nearly no one who's familiar with it would.
So what are the stats here? What percentage of people picked up by the police for a mental evaluation spend the rest of their lives drugged up in an institution? How many mental patients are denied contact with their attorney, human rights, charity, or religious workers? The picture you painted as "typical" is too extreme for me to have confidence in without better evidence.

At any rate, if things are indeed so dire, it strikes me that the real problem is there. If the people doing the mental evaluations can be made competent and professional, and those detained are granted legal representation, then let the police temporarily detain those they fear will do harm. If the people who do have psychological training clear them, wipe it off their record, compensate them and move along. If the same officer detains a string of people who are all cleared as mentally competent (or at least not violent) penalize/fire the officer.
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  #75  
Old Nov 20th 2014, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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  #76  
Old Nov 22nd 2014, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: Which group most discriminated against?

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See previous post, and specifically note that there doesn't have to be violence, only the subjective and incompetent opinion of a cop that there might be.
Cops, since they are humans, are always going to be subjective. I don't see how anyone can get around that problem.

But the point is that police don't just pickup criminally violent mentally ill people and dump them in jails. They just turn them over to psychiatric experts for evaluation. I don't see any problem with this at all.

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Sorry, that sentence seems to lack a word or two?
It reads fine to me.

To restate: You cited the relevant legislation in a previous post. According to that legislation it is totally illegal to do what you keep asserting is being done on a routine basis (mentally ill people being rounded up, thrown in jail and left there forever).
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