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View Poll Results: Is France right to ban the burqa?
Yes 3 21.43%
No 11 78.57%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
Old Sep 10th 2012, 10:56 AM
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Dominick Dominick is offline
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Default Re: Is France right to ban the burqa?

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
The only point here is that the European style constitution makes this a systemic problem (which are very difficult to change), where as the US style constitution makes this a political problem (which is theoretically easier to change).
I'm actually not so sure that it should be constitutional in France.

Here's the decision of the Conseil constitutionnel, the counsel that decides on these matters:

http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.f...010.49711.html

There's an English translation here:
http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.f...is.100327.html

And here's the problem:
The burqa ban, although I use the expression myself all the time, isn't really a burqa ban. Specifically mentioning a religious garment would indeed make it immediately unconstitutional. So the law is about la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, i.e. prohibiting the concealing of the face in public.

This makes it a security issue with no relation to religious freedom. And that's how it's interpreted in the first two points of the decision. But in point three the context is outlined of the nature of religious freedom in France. This is already not logical. If it's just a security issue, point three should never even be in the decision.

And in point four a plain value judgement is made specifically for the context of the burqa (qu'il a également estimé que les femmes dissimulant leur visage, volontairement ou non, se trouvent placées dans une situation d'exclusion et d'infériorité manifestement incompatible avec les principes constitutionnels de liberté et d'égalité | [Eng.] It also felt that those women who conceal their face, voluntarily or otherwise, are placed in a situation of exclusion and inferiority patently incompatible with constitutional principles of liberty and equality) which is never mentioned in the actual text of the law !

I'm no lawyer, far from it, so I don't know if this argument is legally sound but it's certainly not formally logical.
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  #142  
Old Sep 10th 2012, 06:06 PM
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Michael Michael is offline
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Default Re: Is France right to ban the burqa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
I'm actually not so sure that it should be constitutional in France.

Here's the decision of the Conseil constitutionnel, the counsel that decides on these matters:

http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.f...010.49711.html

There's an English translation here:
http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.f...is.100327.html

And here's the problem:
The burqa ban, although I use the expression myself all the time, isn't really a burqa ban. Specifically mentioning a religious garment would indeed make it immediately unconstitutional. So the law is about la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, i.e. prohibiting the concealing of the face in public.

This makes it a security issue with no relation to religious freedom. And that's how it's interpreted in the first two points of the decision. But in point three the context is outlined of the nature of religious freedom in France. This is already not logical. If it's just a security issue, point three should never even be in the decision.

And in point four a plain value judgement is made specifically for the context of the burqa (qu'il a également estimé que les femmes dissimulant leur visage, volontairement ou non, se trouvent placées dans une situation d'exclusion et d'infériorité manifestement incompatible avec les principes constitutionnels de liberté et d'égalité | [Eng.] It also felt that those women who conceal their face, voluntarily or otherwise, are placed in a situation of exclusion and inferiority patently incompatible with constitutional principles of liberty and equality) which is never mentioned in the actual text of the law !

I'm no lawyer, far from it, so I don't know if this argument is legally sound but it's certainly not formally logical.
Please note that an argument need not be formally logical for it to be legally sound. Each premise of the law is applied separately. So if three points are considered, they are considered separately or independently of each other, not accumulatively or as a group.

Btw, I based my original prediction of the constitutional legality of a burqa ban on the wording of the original law and the provision in the French constitution that commands the government to ensure equal treatment of women in all aspects of life. The original preamble to the burqa-ban law stated that protecting the equality of women was the goal and the preamble to a law normally is the instruction to the courts for reading the 'context' or purpose of the law. On this ground alone, the French constitution has the legal power to ban burqas - this trumps all other provisions of the French constitution.

Btw, I do notice that the French 'constitutional council' appears to be using a variation on Canada's Oakes Test there.

(For those who do not know, the Oakes Test is a system of questions devised by Canada's supreme court for dealing with legal issues where constitutional rights may be in confict with other constitutional rights - it is an excellent test to use and I commend all constitutional courts that use it.)
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  #143  
Old Nov 17th 2012, 11:03 PM
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NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
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Default Re: Is France right to ban the burqa?

This quote is from another thread, but MeMyseldandI, do you think it is relevant to this thread too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI View Post
if you move to another place, you change yourself to ways acceptable there, not the other way around. Her Tatars are the same way: if you are in Tatarstan, you must respect their customs and culture. And that is their right too.
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/...ead.php?t=4188
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  #144  
Old Oct 21st 2014, 02:11 AM
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NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
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Default Re: Is France right to ban the burqa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI View Post
The hat is called papakha. It is a huge part of North Caucasian, and Cossack, cultures.

Invented (as basically all North Caucasian fashion) by Circassians



Then, Ossetians started wearing them


And Cossacks, espcially Kubanians and Terekians, as they mixed more with Caucasians and their culture became Caucasianized over centuries, today they too wear papakhas



And from the Cossacks, the rest of us borrowed it, changing it a bit, adding the ear-flaps, and what else. Gave it a new name, ushanka.

By the way, papakhas worn in North Caucasus are not made from bear skin, but from sheep (worn by Circassians, Ossetians, Nogais) or wolf (Chechens, Lezgins, Bats, Ingush, [b][b]Cossacks).
Was the hat you borrowed an ushanka, Pan Wolodojowski?
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