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  #31  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 04:09 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Al Jazeera
Le Monde
Der Spiegel
The Telegraph
And the full history of the law in Belgian Parliament (Dutch):
http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage...45&legislat=53

No hoax.
What can I say. How come you are not invading belgium. There is no way that so many people can be fooled by so much stupidity. I prefer to believe in human nature. People are good. They are not going to kill their own kids.
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  #32  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 05:19 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
What can I say. How come you are not invading belgium. There is no way that so many people can be fooled by so much stupidity. I prefer to believe in human nature. People are good. They are not going to kill their own kids.
Good people do not let their children suffer in agony either. Unless you are some kind of sadist. Do you think God is a sadist, that he would want little children going on in terrible pain, knowing there is no cure for their condition?
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  #33  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 05:42 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Good people do not let their children suffer in agony either. Unless you are some kind of sadist. Do you think God is a sadist, that he would want little children going on in terrible pain, knowing there is no cure for their condition?
Oh, but God performs miracles all the time. Why would he wait for you to kill those children. Why would you assume that if they are left alive just a bit longer, he would not heal them?
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  #34  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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I agree that it's a minefield logically.
But the Law (generally, not this specific one) isn't logical. You'd never find a majority for enabling pedophilia.
No, but one might find a team of crack lawyers can weasel that result out of the existing law.

That's how law works. Once you create the law, it stands - including the loopholes that may turn out to change the whole impact of the law.

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It's the children themselves that have to express the wish and they have to maintain it through discussions with parents and the medical team. If it were e.g. the parents expressing the wish behind the back of the child (not altogether inconceivable) the medical team would not allow it. If it were just the doctor wanting it, the parents and the psychologists wouldn't agree. And so on. There are too many people involved in the decision for some singular do-gooder to get the upper hand.
Ostensibly, the "do-gooders" are the authors of this law. I don't trust the authors of the law.

The ONLY legal standing for laws criminalizing sex with children is the assertion that minors cannot legally give consent to anything. This bill recognizes the right and ability of a minor to give legal consent. Do you see the problem here?

The other problem I have with this is parents. In cases of 8yo children being sent to work 16 hours a day in a sweatshop, it is ALWAYS the parents who initiate this shit - they are the ones who profit. Likewise with child-sex - it is remarkable how many child-porn investigations show that it is parents who are renting out or pimping out their own children. Parents themselves are the number one source for the malicious abuse of children.

In other words, experience suggests that parents represent the greatest danger to the welfare any given child. I believe that any law that gives parents more legal power over children is backwards, regressive and dangerous.
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  #35  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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...I prefer to believe in human nature. People are good. They are not going to kill their own kids.
Dude, you should look up some statistics about the relative dangers to children.

In the overwhelming majority of cases of child abuse (physical or sexual), or child murder, it is one or the other parent that is guilty. Second biggest category of offenders is a blood-relation who is not a parent. Third biggest category of offenders is a close family friend or step-parent.
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  #36  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
What can I say. How come you are not invading belgium. There is no way that so many people can be fooled by so much stupidity. I prefer to believe in human nature. People are good. They are not going to kill their own kids.
That is an odd thing to believe in. The history of human sacrifice suggests that people will kill their own kids. Also, human history doesn't tell a story of people who are morally good.
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  #37  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

I could understand allowing this in the right circumstances, though not if it's really the case that "the case for children is considered to be entirely equal to that for adults." What precisely does it mean to say that "the decision is made in conjunction with all concerned"? Does conjunction mean agreement or just that they get to express an opinion?

That is to say, I can see the value if the law requires that the child, the parents, and the physicians all independently agree to the euthanasia. All the better if the justice department (or Belgian equivalent) audited every case afterwards, which shouldn't be too difficult if there really are so few.

In that case, the child would not be operating with precisely the same legal standing as adults (since I assume that Belgium adults don't need their parents permission).
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  #38  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
The other problem I have with this is parents. In cases of 8yo children being sent to work 16 hours a day in a sweatshop, it is ALWAYS the parents who initiate this shit - they are the ones who profit. Likewise with child-sex - it is remarkable how many child-porn investigations show that it is parents who are renting out or pimping out their own children. Parents themselves are the number one source for the malicious abuse of children.

In other words, experience suggests that parents represent the greatest danger to the welfare any given child. I believe that any law that gives parents more legal power over children is backwards, regressive and dangerous.

...

Dude, you should look up some statistics about the relative dangers to children.

In the overwhelming majority of cases of child abuse (physical or sexual), or child murder, it is one or the other parent that is guilty. Second biggest category of offenders is a blood-relation who is not a parent. Third biggest category of offenders is a close family friend or step-parent.
I wonder if that isn't simply a side-effect of the fact that the overwhelming majority of children are raised by their parents and not by someone else? In this case, the raw numbers would seem to matter less than the percentages.

Is a child being raised by his/her parents more or less likely to be abused than a child being raised by someone who is not their parent?
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  #39  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Is a child being raised by his/her parents more or less likely to be abused than a child being raised by someone who is not their parent?
Now that would certainly be interesting study/data to see!

I guess the core of my dislike of this policy is that granting of any power of life/death to the state or to parents is a nasty legal precedent that I don't want to break.

My inherent cynicism can't let go of the idea that bascially EVERY law that has ever been created by a legislature has been subsequently used and abused for applications entirely unrelated to the purpose of the original law's intent or creation. On this basis, I don't want to give parents or governments or doctors the right to sign-off on someone's death.

I fundamentally believe that the only person who can rightfully choose to end a [conscious] human life is the possessor of it. And on this basis, the only issue that strikes me here is that of the "legal competence" of minors since the parent and the doctors are essentially superfluous to the issue. Might as well just select a random group of strangers by lot to make the call, if the call doesn't belong solely to the person in question.
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  #40  
Old Feb 16th 2014, 10:03 PM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

Duma is voting to ban all adoption to Belgium, if the new euthanasia law would affect children from Russia.
http://top.rbc.ru/politics/17/02/2014/905429.shtml

Well, we already essentially banned adoption there anyway, along with all countries where gay marriage is legal: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...al/494484.html

Do not see what is the point of another ban on top of the previous one... Just silly posturing IMHO
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