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  #21  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 12:56 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
This is logically very difficult.

If one accepts the dogma that 'minors' are incapable of giving consent to sexual acts, then one must ask, how can 'minors' be capable of giving concent to their own euthanasia?

And the flipside is of course, if 'minors' are considered capable of this decision of euthanasia, then this opens the floodgates for the sex issue.

Bottom line is that children are either 'minors' incapable of any legal decisions, or they are not.

And if 'minors' are not capable of legal decisions, we are faced with the prospect of 3rd persons pronouncing a sentence of 'death' upon innocent children. How can one validate a law that gives power to adults, with presumed good intentions, to kill children?

There is nothing in the world I fear more than 'do-gooders with good intentions'. I would never trust such people.
Here's a better way to look at things. Human rights are inalienable. You cannot renounce your human right. Therefore, you can never give consent to end your own life (the right to life is the ultimate human right). You want to do it on your own, you are doing something illegal. This why when people attempt suicide they get forced into psychiatric detention.
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  #22  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 12:58 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

And here we get back to my original observation. This thing must be a hoax.

CNN might as well publish that Germany just allowed human burgers to be sold. It is an artistic thing. It doesn't add up. I don't believe that this is actually news.
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  #23  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 01:47 PM
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Michael Michael is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
Here's a better way to look at things. Human rights are inalienable. You cannot renounce your human right. Therefore, you can never give consent to end your own life (the right to life is the ultimate human right). You want to do it on your own, you are doing something illegal. This why when people attempt suicide they get forced into psychiatric detention.
What? Human rights are alienable and extremely deniable - so much so that I'm inclined to say that they don't really exist. They certainly don't exist as actual laws. And any government can override them just about any time the government chooses.

That being said, if one grants that such 'human rights' exist, then I might aver that if I don't have the right to kill myself, then the right has no meaning at all.

In case you are curious, the legal prohibitions against suicide originate with Christianity (suicide is against God's law). In so far as secular states enforce such laws, the only rational explanation is that suicide deprives the state of their entitlement to future tax revenues, which as far as I'm concerned is anything but defensible. As it stands, laws against suicide have only religion to uphold them - which is why such laws are being progressively challenged and struck down.
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  #24  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 02:43 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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What? Human rights are alienable and extremely deniable - so much so that I'm inclined to say that they don't really exist. They certainly don't exist as actual laws. And any government can override them just about any time the government chooses.

That being said, if one grants that such 'human rights' exist, then I might aver that if I don't have the right to kill myself, then the right has no meaning at all.

In case you are curious, the legal prohibitions against suicide originate with Christianity (suicide is against God's law). In so far as secular states enforce such laws, the only rational explanation is that suicide deprives the state of their entitlement to future tax revenues, which as far as I'm concerned is anything but defensible. As it stands, laws against suicide have only religion to uphold them - which is why such laws are being progressively challenged and struck down.
Ok, first for christianity: I will not argue christ in here, I do fully believe in him, but I will argue secularly.

So, the right to kill oneself is not a right at all in any state. Not because it deprives it of anything. But because one must be irrational to do this. If you are fully atheist and you kill yourself you know that you have lost everything.
Insanity is defined by knowing what is right from what is wrong. How can harming yourself in the worst way possible be right? It cannot.

This is why even bearing pain. A lot of pain. Is better than non existing. Think about it. What could be worse than non existing?

It is easy to figure out. You value your life. Or else you would simply jump out of the window. When people do these irrational things, they are insane. The state has an obligation to protect the individual from himself in such cases. He will end up thanking his state later.
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  #25  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 03:37 PM
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Dominick Dominick is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
See. Now you are deciding what your children ought to have a right to. And to be specific, you are deciding that they have a right to end their own lives.

Ok cool. I will give you this extreme example to show you that you guys are bullshiters.

What if your child male or female has an overwhelming urge to have sexual relations with a grown man or women?
And when you tell him No. What if he/she threatens to kill him/her-self?
That's not the same thing at all. The conditions for the law are:
  • Patient terminally ill beyond all medical doubt
  • Patient in constant unbearable pain
  • Initiative must come from the patient
  • Consent from parents/guardians and from the entire medical team (doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists)
Suicide on a whim clearly doesn't qualify.
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  #26  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 03:43 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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That's not the same thing at all. The conditions for the law are:
  • Patient terminally ill beyond all medical doubt
  • Patient in constant unbearable pain
  • Initiative must come from the patient
  • Consent from parents/guardians and from the entire medical team (doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists)
Suicide on a whim clearly doesn't qualify.
Is not existing better than the pain we endure here on earth?
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  #27  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
This is logically very difficult.

If one accepts the dogma that 'minors' are incapable of giving consent to sexual acts, then one must ask, how can 'minors' be capable of giving concent to their own euthanasia?

And the flipside is of course, if 'minors' are considered capable of this decision of euthanasia, then this opens the floodgates for the sex issue.

Bottom line is that children are either 'minors' incapable of any legal decisions, or they are not.
I agree that it's a minefield logically.
But the Law (generally, not this specific one) isn't logical. You'd never find a majority for enabling pedophilia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
And if 'minors' are not capable of legal decisions, we are faced with the prospect of 3rd persons pronouncing a sentence of 'death' upon innocent children. How can one validate a law that gives power to adults, with presumed good intentions, to kill children?

There is nothing in the world I fear more than 'do-gooders with good intentions'. I would never trust such people.
It's the children themselves that have to express the wish and they have to maintain it through discussions with parents and the medical team. If it were e.g. the parents expressing the wish behind the back of the child (not altogether inconceivable) the medical team would not allow it. If it were just the doctor wanting it, the parents and the psychologists wouldn't agree. And so on. There are too many people involved in the decision for some singular do-gooder to get the upper hand.
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  #28  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
Is not existing better than the pain we endure here on earth?
If you're terminally ill anyway (which is a condition for the law to apply) and are in constant unendurable pain, then, yes, non-existence is better.
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  #29  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
And here we get back to my original observation. This thing must be a hoax.

CNN might as well publish that Germany just allowed human burgers to be sold. It is an artistic thing. It doesn't add up. I don't believe that this is actually news.
Al Jazeera
Le Monde
Der Spiegel
The Telegraph
And the full history of the law in Belgian Parliament (Dutch):
http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage...45&legislat=53

No hoax.
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  #30  
Old Feb 14th 2014, 04:07 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Euthanasia for children

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
If you're terminally ill anyway (which is a condition for the law to apply) and are in constant unendurable pain, then, yes, non-existence is better.
Ok. Well you just solved world hunger. You see every minute 18 people around the globe die from starvation.
Starvation it a long and painful process. Your cells would eat one another. You don't starve by missing a couple of meals. It takes 40 or more days.
At the end you are in constant pain. Food cannot save you. And you die because your body stops.
Yet, when you look at those starving Aficans on TV you see them asking for food, not for a bullet in their heads.

What am I going to say. God Bless you. May you see his reality. You are even blind to science and logic.
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