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Old Aug 5th 2011, 03:53 PM
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Default Angela Merkel and European economy.

Could Angela Merkel be a candidate for the Nobel Economics Prize? In the middle of a European economic crisis, this level-headed, calm woman has focused on solutions, rather than rhetoric. The country which she has led since 2005 is one of the few countries in Europe, that isn't experiencing a crisis, and is now showing others how it's done. I am usually very sceptical about politicians, but it is difficult not to be persuaded by such a sincere-seeming person.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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Could Angela Merkel be a candidate for the Nobel Economics Prize? In the middle of a European economic crisis, this level-headed, calm woman has focused on solutions, rather than rhetoric. The country which she has led since 2005 is one of the few countries in Europe, that isn't experiencing a crisis, and is now showing others how it's done. I am usually very sceptical about politicians, but it is difficult not to be persuaded by such a sincere-seeming person.
Nobel prize for worst politician of the 21st century - up against GW Bush?

German politics are one of the main driving forces in CAUSING the crisis and making it all but impossible to resolve. Fact is, EU monetary policy is essentially defined as "what is good for Germany, screw everyone else". The fact that Greece, Spain and Italy are getting screwed by German financial policy is the crisis in Europe.

I sure wish Germany had a REAL leader and not some salary-sucking chair warmer fighting hard to maintain a status quo that is impossble to maintain.

And if idiotic and incompetent German banks didn't pour so much money into these bankrupt economies (chasing profits that didn't exist), there would be no problem in Europe right now. But EU policy is all about defending German banks.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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Nobel prize for worst politician of the 21st century - up against GW Bush?

German politics are one of the main driving forces in CAUSING the crisis and making it all but impossible to resolve. Fact is, EU monetary policy is essentially defined as "what is good for Germany, screw everyone else". The fact that Greece, Spain and Italy are getting screwed by German financial policy is the crisis in Europe.

I sure wish Germany had a REAL leader and not some salary-sucking chair warmer fighting hard to maintain a status quo that is impossble to maintain.

And if idiotic and incompetent German banks didn't pour so much money into these bankrupt economies (chasing profits that didn't exist), there would be no problem in Europe right now. But EU policy is all about defending German banks.
Well, from what I can see, Greece and other are in debt. Not necessarily their fault, but nevertheless, a debt which needs to be repaid, as all debts should be repaid.

Merkel, and her government, are struggling to get a situation in which, after many years, Greece will finally pay off its debts, and be able to look the world in the eye, not as a charity case, but as the proud nation it always has been.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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Well, from what I can see, Greece and other are in debt. Not necessarily their fault, but nevertheless, a debt which needs to be repaid, as all debts should be repaid.
Individuals and corporations repudiate debt on a daily basis. We have court systems setup especially to deal with this common occurance. Heck, we have some businesses who's business model is built on the idea of declaring bankruptcy every year.

And as far as I'm concerned, if a bad debt exists, it is 100% the fault of the lender for making a foolish investment. That's what investment risk is all about. I can't fault deadbeats for acting like deadbeats. I fault the idiot that loaned the deadbeat money and expected to make a profit.

Having the taxpayer bailout the stupid/greedy investors who lost their marbles is really bad public policy and just guarentees that the problem will just get worse since everyone knows nothing matters because they will just get another bailout.

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Merkel, and her government, are struggling to get a situation in which, after many years, Greece will finally pay off its debts, and be able to look the world in the eye, not as a charity case, but as the proud nation it always has been.
I don't see things like this at all. Greece is a basket case, entirely corrupt and probably the worst governed country in Europe (and has been consistently so for several decades). Fact is, Greece will never actually pay off her debts in full and everyone knows this. That fact means that most of the German and French banking sectors are actually insolvent at this time.

That's the crisis - how to bailout out Greece AND bailout German/French banks and German/French investors when the actual cost of doing so exceeds the EU budget - and pretend that it is NO ONE'S FAULT at the same time. That's tricky.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

I've already conceded that the debt is not necessarily the fault of Greece.

And Greece are not a corporate cowboy. They are a patriotic people. Merkel, for whatever motives, is motivating the Greeks to show the world that they CAN pay the debt back, or at least the bulk of it.

And when this is done, it will be a precedent to the future; No, it's NOT acceptable to default on a debt, and it's also NOT acceptable to treat a debtor like an enemy.

The Merkel-led rescuers, have arranged a program of debt-repayment, and the Greek government are very grateful that they can ascribe the program to Merkel and Co. since this is easier to tell their electorate (politicans have always got one eye on the next election).
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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I've already conceded that the debt is not necessarily the fault of Greece.

And Greece are not a corporate cowboy. They are a patriotic people. Merkel, for whatever motives, is motivating the Greeks to show the world that they CAN pay the debt back, or at least the bulk of it.
Yes, Merkel is desperate to have the Greeks pay back their debts. The health of the German banking industry is dependent upon it. Without endless bailouts to the Greeks, the German banking industry would be bankrupt - and that's what Merkel is really afraid of. In other words, Merkel is merely taking a self-serving and short term approach to the problem. The real problem is being avoided (because it is uncomfortable for Germany to talk about how they are screwing the rest of the EU).

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And when this is done, it will be a precedent to the future; No, it's NOT acceptable to default on a debt, and it's also NOT acceptable to treat a debtor like an enemy.
I say it is unacceptable to bailout the German banks - and saddling the cost of it on the Greek taxpayer (and average Greek citizens). That's what they are doing.

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The Merkel-led rescuers, have arranged a program of debt-repayment, and the Greek government are very grateful that they can ascribe the program to Merkel and Co. since this is easier to tell their electorate (politicans have always got one eye on the next election).
Yes, the Germans are borrowing [more] money to lend [more] to Greece so that Greece can pay back [more] money to [more] German banks - and they are sticking the cost of this on the Greek people.

In other words a "Germany first, screw everyone else" policy is what caused the problem and now "Germany first, screw everyone else" is the policy solution.

But the Greek politicians get to keep their cushy jobs and fat pensions and don't have to admit that they are corrupt and incompetent - they've passed their problem off onto others - the poor suffering taxpayers.

Everything is pretty much an exact copy of the US bank bailout back in 2008. Same game.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

So what if she's doing it for her self?
Who cares what her motive is (hence mycomment 'for whatever motive').
A whole post about Merkel's motive, and not one suggestion that she is doing any other than good.
The Greeks are in debt and that is why they must pay it back.
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Old Aug 5th 2011, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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So what if she's doing it for her self?
Who cares what her motive is (hence mycomment 'for whatever motive').
A whole post about Merkel's motive, and not one suggestion that she is doing any other than good.
The Greeks are in debt and that is why they must pay it back.
I don't have a problem with forcing Greece to pay the debt (or with Greece defaulting).

And I don't really care what Merkel's motives are either. I'm sure she believes she is honestly doing what she thinks is best for Germany and Europe.

I'm just pointing out some particularly awkward facts about the matter that makes the issue more interesting - and it is interesting because what we are watching is potentially a mortal wound to the EU project. The Greek situation is merely the opening act that sets the stage for the real drama that may come all too soon. Germany and the EU government 'punted' on the Greek problem and used a 'bandaid' approach to the problem. That won't be possible for Spain or Italy because the scale of the problem is much larger and that will force a crisis and the Greek solution set some very bad precedents that can't actually be upheld if applied on the scale of Spain or Italy.
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Old Aug 6th 2011, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

Here's a summary of the latest deal from the economist.
Also, some analysis and why the right thing will not be done.
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Old Aug 6th 2011, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Angela Merkel and European economy.

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Here's a summary of the latest deal from the economist.
Also, some analysis and why the right thing will not be done.
The Economist is so anti-EU it's not true. But I'm now going to read it - but I suspect it will be the usual.

Okay, I've read it. Surpised at how neutral it is. Fair play to the Economist for providing an insightful and unbiased article, and I now eat humble pie.
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