Syrian Conflict

[MeMyselfAndI]

Originally Posted by Donkey

You are understandably angry, but do you really think all out war with Turkey is the right path?

I am sick of all the talking and negotiating and political bullshit. Turks want WWIII, let's have it, we Russians have kicked Ottomans many times in history, even in Crimea we let them have it, when all of Europe was on their side, same as now btw

If Putin declares war on Turkey tomorrow, I will reenlist to the Marines. Gladly. Killing Turks would be a pleasure.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

I am sick of all the talking and negotiating and political bullshit. Turks want WWIII, let's have it, we Russians have kicked Ottomans many times in history, even in Crimea we let them have it, when all of Europe was on their side, same as now btw

If Putin declares war on Turkey tomorrow, I will reenlist to the Marines. Gladly. Killing Turks would be a pleasure.

I certainly don't think that the Turks want WWIII. Not even the Turkish government.

But even if they want it, why give it to them?

[MeMyselfAndI]

Originally Posted by Donkey

I certainly don't think that the Turks want WWIII. Not even the Turkish government.

But even if they want it, why give it to them?

Because we should avenge our people, always.

But it does not matter what I say or think, Kremlin has just ruled out a military response to Turkey: http://lifenews.ru/mobile/news/171593

Our leaders are fucking cowards today. Pathetic.

[dilettante]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

Because we should avenge our people, always.

But it does not matter what I say or think, Kremlin has just ruled out a military response to Turkey: http://lifenews.ru/mobile/news/171593

Our leaders are fucking cowards today. Pathetic.

Perhaps your leaders simply care too much about the lives of your people to risk killing thousands of them over the fate of a single jet.

You're talking about WWIII and launching nukes at Ankara. You have to know that would lead to retaliation. Do you really care so little about yourself, your family, and your fellow Russians that you'd guarantee the death of tens of millions of them for the sake of revenge?

Honestly, if Putin feels the need to "punish" Turkey somehow, I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to find a way to do it without starting a war.


As an aside, MM&I, how sure are you that the Russian jet didn't actually violate Turkish airspace and ignore repeated warnings from Turkey? If I recall correctly, Russian pilots have been pretty bold of late, buzzing a US destroy, etc. Does it really seem unlikely that one would have crossed the border in Syria, either by accident or intentionally to 'tease' the Turks? Do you really trust your government to admit it if that were the case?

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

Because we should avenge our people, always.

But it does not matter what I say or think, Kremlin has just ruled out a military response to Turkey: http://lifenews.ru/mobile/news/171593

Our leaders are fucking cowards today. Pathetic.

Well thank goodness your leaders aren't fools.

Killing a hundred Turks or a thousand Turks or a million Turks isn't justice. It's vengeance, and on an international scale that is suicidal. It's also not Christian.

[Donkey]

Don't take this as any defense of Turkey's government by the way.

In fact I think they are one of the major obstacles to defeating ISIS and achieving peace and stability in the region.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Originally Posted by dilettante

Perhaps your leaders simply care too much about the lives of your people to risk killing thousands of them over the fate of a single jet.

You're talking about WWIII and launching nukes at Ankara. You have to know that would lead to retaliation. Do you really care so little about yourself, your family, and your fellow Russians that you'd guarantee the death of tens of millions of them for the sake of revenge?

Honestly, if Putin feels the need to "punish" Turkey somehow, I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to find a way to do it without starting a war.


As an aside, MM&I, how sure are you that the Russian jet didn't actually violate Turkish airspace and ignore repeated warnings from Turkey? If I recall correctly, Russian pilots have been pretty bold of late, buzzing a US destroy, etc. Does it really seem unlikely that one would have crossed the border in Syria, either by accident or intentionally to 'tease' the Turks? Do you really trust your government to admit it if that were the case?

Even if it was, our plane was not threatening anybody, and should have been allowed to leave, as always happens. When our air force intercepts foreign aircraft, they do not touch them either. That is the way of the civilized world, but what would Turks know about that?

So, are you saying America and Europe would retaliate against a fellow Christian country on behalf of Muslim Turkey? Oh, why am I asking... Did I not just mention the bloody Crimean War... We Orthodox were always worse than the Muslims to you people...

Originally Posted by Donkey

Well thank goodness your leaders aren't fools.

Killing a hundred Turks or a thousand Turks or a million Turks isn't justice. It's vengeance, and on an international scale that is suicidal. It's also not Christian.

Defending yourself is absolutely Christian.

I would arm the Kurdish rebels in Turkey, give them all the weapons they ask for, and let them go, set their cities on fire. That would be a lesson, hopefully...

In other news... Karina just told me in her Tatarstan, in Nizhnekamsk, her father, she was just on phone with him, he says on their local TV they said a Turkish man, 32 years old, was beaten to death. Two young local guys followed him outside from a nightclub and jumped on him, he died in hospital from head injury...

That is just a start. Turks here in Russia need to get out, because there will be retaliation, they will not be safe.

[dilettante]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

Even if it was, our plane was not threatening anybody, and should have been allowed to leave, as always happens. When our air force intercepts foreign aircraft, they do not touch them either. That is the way of the civilized world, but what would Turks know about that?

So, are you saying America and Europe would retaliate against a fellow Christian country on behalf of Muslim Turkey? Oh, why am I asking... Did I not just mention the bloody Crimean War... We Orthodox were always worse than the Muslims to you people...

The religion doesn't matter; it's a question of treaty obligations. But, yeah, if Russia openly attacked a NATO member, Europe and the US would have to respond in force. That's the entire point of the treaty.

As to the plane, if the Turks flew a warplane over Russia and ignored demands that they leave 10 times, you'd really oppose Russia ever opening fire? That just seems out of character.

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

Defending yourself is absolutely Christian.

1) No it isn't. List one New Testament passage or leader gives any support at all for that? Christ and all twelve apostles were either executed or forcibly exiled and NONE of them ever made even the slightest attempt to defend themselves by force. Jesus explicitly said NOT to strike back if someone strikes you and to love, NOT to hate, those who are your enemies.

2) Revenge is not self-defense. Bombing Ankara will not defend or save the life of a single Russian. It will only guarantee that more of them die.

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

In other news... Karina just told me in her Tatarstan, in Nizhnekamsk, her father, she was just on phone with him, he says on their local TV they said a Turkish man, 32 years old, was beaten to death. Two young local guys followed him outside from a nightclub and jumped on him, he died in hospital from head injury...

That is just a start. Turks here in Russia need to get out, because there will be retaliation, they will not be safe.

So you Russians are going to start murdering innocent Turkish people in the street because of what their government did a thousand miles away? What was that you said about being part of the civilized [much less the Christian] world?

[MeMyselfAndI]

Originally Posted by dilettante

The religion doesn't matter; it's a question of treaty obligations. But, yeah, if Russia openly attacked a NATO member, Europe and the US would have to respond in force. That's the entire point of the treaty.

As to the plane, if the Turks flew a warplane over Russia and ignored demands that they leave 10 times, you'd really oppose Russia ever opening fire? That just seems out of character.



1) No it isn't. List one New Testament passage or leader gives any support at all for that? Christ and all twelve apostles were either executed or forcibly exiled and NONE of them ever made even the slightest attempt to defend themselves by force. Jesus explicitly said NOT to strike back if someone strikes you and to love, NOT to hate, those who are your enemies.

2) Revenge is not self-defense. Bombing Ankara will not defend or save the life of a single Russian. It will only guarantee that more of them die.



So you Russians are going to start murdering innocent Turkish people in the street because of what their government did a thousand miles away? What was that you said about being part of the civilized [much less the Christian] world?

A. I do not support these revenge murders of innocent people. It is actually interesting to me that this incident is provoking much more rage here than the passenger plane over Sinai. Though, I guess I can see why: here, there is an actual country and nation to blame, unlike there, where there was just ISIS, a multinational entity whose members come from many different places, including, thousands, from here, from Russia and ex-USSR... Here, there is Turkey to focus anger on.

B. Having claimed down somewhat, no do not support war with Turkey either. Though, there must be some answer, our government looks weak right now, not sure abroad, but here at home. After military response was ruled out, you should have read what Russian forums are saying about Putin, they are spitting on the Kremlin. Weakness and cowardice is what is most despised in leaders here. If Putin does not act, strongly, he will lose that approval rating of his.

The government is cutting all military ties with Turkey and considering cutting air travel too; a guided missile cruiser, Moskva, is being moved towards Syria with orders to fire antiaircraft weapons against any targets threatening Russian forces; and fighters will now escort all bomber aircraft on missions.

We shall see if this is enough to placate the public opinion...

[dilettante]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

A. I do not support these revenge murders of innocent people. It is actually interesting to me that this incident is provoking much more rage here than the passenger plane over Sinai. Though, I guess I can see why: here, there is an actual country and nation to blame, unlike there, where there was just ISIS, a multinational entity whose members come from many different places, including, thousands, from here, from Russia and ex-USSR... Here, there is Turkey to focus anger on.

Yes, it's easier to have a concrete, easily identified foe. I think that desire is behind at least some of the anti-Muslim rhetoric here in the US; people want to strike back at someone close at hand. There aren't any ISIS citizens handy, so they look to strike at someone else, regardless of whether they're guilty. It's a bad part of human nature, but a very real one, all over the world.

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

B. Having claimed down somewhat, no do not support war with Turkey either. Though, there must be some answer, our government looks weak right now, not sure abroad, but here at home. After military response was ruled out, you should have read what Russian forums are saying about Putin, they are spitting on the Kremlin. Weakness and cowardice is what is most despised in leaders here. If Putin does not act, strongly, he will lose that approval rating of his.

The government is cutting all military ties with Turkey and considering cutting air travel too; a guided missile cruiser, Moskva, is being moved towards Syria with orders to fire antiaircraft weapons against any targets threatening Russian forces; and fighters will now escort all bomber aircraft on missions.

We shall see if this is enough to placate the public opinion...

If it's any consolation, I suspect that, while publicly NATO will declare support for Turkey, privately they'll be yelling at the Turks to chill out and take it down a notch.

I can't imagine this incident will seriously harm Putin's position in Syria, and he has way too much influence there to be considered "weak." I imagine he'll find a way to either held Assad down a Turkish jet or just blow up some Syrian rebel stuff and tell everyone in Russia that it was Turkish.