Discussion World Forum  


Go Back   Discussion World Forum > Politics & Current Events > U.S. Politics

U.S. Politics Congress, elections, government and discussion of all US political issues.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old Jan 21st 2017, 08:30 AM
Sucre's Avatar
Sucre Sucre is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 335
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Resist my friends, Resist.

I don't agree with Dominick. It is time to show what you think. Don't shie from expressing your opinions and from rebunking lies (there will be a lot of them), in public and when ever you can.

Stay courteous. Always. Do not use insults, do not use violence. Be as factual as possible. Use irony. Try to uncover contradictions.
__________________
Liberté ... j'écris ton nom ...
  #72  
Old Jan 21st 2017, 04:19 PM
Dominick's Avatar
Dominick Dominick is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dying Europe
Posts: 3,837
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Could not disagree more. The basis for resistance is community.

Organize and radicalize your social circle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
Resist my friends, Resist.

I don't agree with Dominick. It is time to show what you think. Don't shie from expressing your opinions and from rebunking lies (there will be a lot of them), in public and when ever you can.

Stay courteous. Always. Do not use insults, do not use violence. Be as factual as possible. Use irony. Try to uncover contradictions.
Sorry, but you guys are still missing the point of what exactly is going on. Being factual is pointless. Today every nitwit with an Internet connection's opinion is fully equivalent to the position of an academic with the highest credentials. This viewpoint is embraced and reinforced by the powers that be, at least the new powers. It's literally the position of the Brexit part of the Tory cabinet (e.g. Gove) and of course obviously that of the Trump administration. And it goes without saying that what's now the media is more than supporting this.

This isn't business as usual. This isn't a strained muscle or a dislocated shoulder which will bounce back. This is an irreversible and multiple complex break. This is the de-intellectualization of Western civilization. It's the end of the Age of Reason. It's not hyperbole. It's simply what has happened to every civilization of the past. Golden Ages don't last. Think about ancient Greece. One moment you have the Socrates-Plato-Aristoteles trinity. But what was there a hundred years from that? Nothing much. I could make the illustration with every civilization that once flourished.

Trump is a symptom of this rather than a cause. He's not that important. This has been in the making for decades. Purely statistically, after the population explosion in the 20th century, there should now be thousands of people of the level of a Newton, a Descartes, a Locke, a Rousseau, a Bach, a Beethoven, a Smith, a Mozart, you name it. Well, where are they? There's billions of us now and there's hardly a soul worth mentioning in the aforementioned illustrious list (which can easily be expanded). Apart from Chomsky (who's 88 ) can you give me a single name worth being put on the same shelf as all the big names of the last centuries? It's the same in every other aspect of culture. Who since Joyce and Stravinsky is worth a mention? Beyoncé and JK Rowling? But what can one expect when education is nothing more than corporate potty training.

And now this obvious decline has become policy. Being an intellectual will be not only a cause for being shunned and ridiculed, it will be downright dangerous. It's often overlooked because of the much bigger number of other victims but in any -literally any- swing towards authoritarianism the very first target are the intelligentia. This isn't just the case with Mao, Stalin, Hitler et al but it was no less the case when the Roman or Ottoman Empires declined. Or any other one.

On top of all that it's still just one factor. There are plenty more. If we're honest about it we must admit that the rise and peak of Western civilization was based on robbing the rest of the planet blind. That's coming to an end too. Partly because the planet's running out of resources to plunder to begin with and partly because globalization has ironically led to a much greater awareness amongst the exploited people of the world that they are in fact being exploited. And they don't like it very much to use a British style understatement. Global equalization is inevitable which for the West means a big fat pay-cut. Note that with this equalization I mean the equal distribution of poverty and misery around the globe rather than the equal distribution of wealth.

The latter is yet another aspect of the decline. The massive hoarding of all the revenues from economical activity into off-shore accounts is eventually going to leave all governments in the same condition as the current Greek one. Endless artificial debts towards vastly wealthy financial institutions leaving no means to counter any of the aforementioned issues and thus a cast-in-stone guarantee that it only can get worse.

Then there's the complete return of racism as a valid and mainstream position, the acceptance of discrimination and de-humanizing to deal with people (e.g. refugees from wars we started in the first place), and indeed already the normalization of genocide as a 'final solution'. In case anyone missed it, Duterte in the Philippines is doing just that, even brags about his personal participation in it and there's no reaction from anyone in the world. Zilch, nada. Ergo, it's indeed already acceptable policy again.

And then there's climate change. With nationalists in especially China, India and now the USA, the already pathetic attempts to do something against it are now over and done with. All that's left is the inherent resilience of the system itself. Admittedly that's largely an unknown. On the one hand it must necessarily be very high as life has survived for 4 billion years which is really an incredibly long time which few people can actually appreciate. During that time the system has received punches (e.g. shield volcano eruptions, impacting asteriods, etc.) of a magnitude which make the Lisboa quake or the Aceh tsunami look like an impolite burp. And yet, life prevailed. But on the other hand, no species or group of species is guaranteed to survive. There have been quite a few bottlenecks where over 95% of all living species did not make it. And it's usually the most complex species which get the boot precisely because they are complex. A species which relies on the presence of energy and technology is probably not going to get good odds here.

In case you're starting to wonder where I'm going with all this, it's to point out that all of these evolutions are interdependent and that you can't fight the one without fighting them all. So, if you want to fight all of this simultaneously, be my guest. And if you do it with reason, be aware that:
a) no one will listen unless they already know
b) you will end up being shunned and ostracized, if not worse.
__________________
Wir haben es wieder nicht gewusst.
  #73  
Old Jan 22nd 2017, 12:23 AM
Non Sequitur's Avatar
Non Sequitur Non Sequitur is offline
Official Forum Lutheran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Kingdom on the Left and the Right
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Sorry, but you guys are still missing the point of what exactly is going on. Being factual is pointless. Today every nitwit with an Internet connection's opinion is fully equivalent to the position of an academic with the highest credentials. This viewpoint is embraced and reinforced by the powers that be, at least the new powers. It's literally the position of the Brexit part of the Tory cabinet (e.g. Gove) and of course obviously that of the Trump administration. And it goes without saying that what's now the media is more than supporting this.

This isn't business as usual. This isn't a strained muscle or a dislocated shoulder which will bounce back. This is an irreversible and multiple complex break. This is the de-intellectualization of Western civilization. It's the end of the Age of Reason. It's not hyperbole. It's simply what has happened to every civilization of the past. Golden Ages don't last. Think about ancient Greece. One moment you have the Socrates-Plato-Aristoteles trinity. But what was there a hundred years from that? Nothing much. I could make the illustration with every civilization that once flourished.

Trump is a symptom of this rather than a cause. He's not that important. This has been in the making for decades. Purely statistically, after the population explosion in the 20th century, there should now be thousands of people of the level of a Newton, a Descartes, a Locke, a Rousseau, a Bach, a Beethoven, a Smith, a Mozart, you name it. Well, where are they? There's billions of us now and there's hardly a soul worth mentioning in the aforementioned illustrious list (which can easily be expanded). Apart from Chomsky (who's 88 ) can you give me a single name worth being put on the same shelf as all the big names of the last centuries? It's the same in every other aspect of culture. Who since Joyce and Stravinsky is worth a mention? Beyoncé and JK Rowling? But what can one expect when education is nothing more than corporate potty training.

And now this obvious decline has become policy. Being an intellectual will be not only a cause for being shunned and ridiculed, it will be downright dangerous. It's often overlooked because of the much bigger number of other victims but in any -literally any- swing towards authoritarianism the very first target are the intelligentia. This isn't just the case with Mao, Stalin, Hitler et al but it was no less the case when the Roman or Ottoman Empires declined. Or any other one.

On top of all that it's still just one factor. There are plenty more. If we're honest about it we must admit that the rise and peak of Western civilization was based on robbing the rest of the planet blind. That's coming to an end too. Partly because the planet's running out of resources to plunder to begin with and partly because globalization has ironically led to a much greater awareness amongst the exploited people of the world that they are in fact being exploited. And they don't like it very much to use a British style understatement. Global equalization is inevitable which for the West means a big fat pay-cut. Note that with this equalization I mean the equal distribution of poverty and misery around the globe rather than the equal distribution of wealth.

The latter is yet another aspect of the decline. The massive hoarding of all the revenues from economical activity into off-shore accounts is eventually going to leave all governments in the same condition as the current Greek one. Endless artificial debts towards vastly wealthy financial institutions leaving no means to counter any of the aforementioned issues and thus a cast-in-stone guarantee that it only can get worse.

Then there's the complete return of racism as a valid and mainstream position, the acceptance of discrimination and de-humanizing to deal with people (e.g. refugees from wars we started in the first place), and indeed already the normalization of genocide as a 'final solution'. In case anyone missed it, Duterte in the Philippines is doing just that, even brags about his personal participation in it and there's no reaction from anyone in the world. Zilch, nada. Ergo, it's indeed already acceptable policy again.

And then there's climate change. With nationalists in especially China, India and now the USA, the already pathetic attempts to do something against it are now over and done with. All that's left is the inherent resilience of the system itself. Admittedly that's largely an unknown. On the one hand it must necessarily be very high as life has survived for 4 billion years which is really an incredibly long time which few people can actually appreciate. During that time the system has received punches (e.g. shield volcano eruptions, impacting asteriods, etc.) of a magnitude which make the Lisboa quake or the Aceh tsunami look like an impolite burp. And yet, life prevailed. But on the other hand, no species or group of species is guaranteed to survive. There have been quite a few bottlenecks where over 95% of all living species did not make it. And it's usually the most complex species which get the boot precisely because they are complex. A species which relies on the presence of energy and technology is probably not going to get good odds here.

In case you're starting to wonder where I'm going with all this, it's to point out that all of these evolutions are interdependent and that you can't fight the one without fighting them all. So, if you want to fight all of this simultaneously, be my guest. And if you do it with reason, be aware that:
a) no one will listen unless they already know
b) you will end up being shunned and ostracized, if not worse.
"By your endurance you will gain your souls." Luke 21:19
__________________
Lighten our darkness.
  #74  
Old Jan 22nd 2017, 10:11 AM
MeMyselfAndI MeMyselfAndI is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 6,453
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Sorry, but you guys are still missing the point of what exactly is going on. Being factual is pointless. Today every nitwit with an Internet connection's opinion is fully equivalent to the position of an academic with the highest credentials. This viewpoint is embraced and reinforced by the powers that be, at least the new powers. It's literally the position of the Brexit part of the Tory cabinet (e.g. Gove) and of course obviously that of the Trump administration. And it goes without saying that what's now the media is more than supporting this.

This isn't business as usual. This isn't a strained muscle or a dislocated shoulder which will bounce back. This is an irreversible and multiple complex break. This is the de-intellectualization of Western civilization. It's the end of the Age of Reason. It's not hyperbole. It's simply what has happened to every civilization of the past. Golden Ages don't last. Think about ancient Greece. One moment you have the Socrates-Plato-Aristoteles trinity. But what was there a hundred years from that? Nothing much. I could make the illustration with every civilization that once flourished.

Trump is a symptom of this rather than a cause. He's not that important. This has been in the making for decades. Purely statistically, after the population explosion in the 20th century, there should now be thousands of people of the level of a Newton, a Descartes, a Locke, a Rousseau, a Bach, a Beethoven, a Smith, a Mozart, you name it. Well, where are they? There's billions of us now and there's hardly a soul worth mentioning in the aforementioned illustrious list (which can easily be expanded). Apart from Chomsky (who's 88 ) can you give me a single name worth being put on the same shelf as all the big names of the last centuries? It's the same in every other aspect of culture. Who since Joyce and Stravinsky is worth a mention? Beyoncé and JK Rowling? But what can one expect when education is nothing more than corporate potty training.

And now this obvious decline has become policy. Being an intellectual will be not only a cause for being shunned and ridiculed, it will be downright dangerous. It's often overlooked because of the much bigger number of other victims but in any -literally any- swing towards authoritarianism the very first target are the intelligentia. This isn't just the case with Mao, Stalin, Hitler et al but it was no less the case when the Roman or Ottoman Empires declined. Or any other one.

On top of all that it's still just one factor. There are plenty more. If we're honest about it we must admit that the rise and peak of Western civilization was based on robbing the rest of the planet blind. That's coming to an end too. Partly because the planet's running out of resources to plunder to begin with and partly because globalization has ironically led to a much greater awareness amongst the exploited people of the world that they are in fact being exploited. And they don't like it very much to use a British style understatement. Global equalization is inevitable which for the West means a big fat pay-cut. Note that with this equalization I mean the equal distribution of poverty and misery around the globe rather than the equal distribution of wealth.

The latter is yet another aspect of the decline. The massive hoarding of all the revenues from economical activity into off-shore accounts is eventually going to leave all governments in the same condition as the current Greek one. Endless artificial debts towards vastly wealthy financial institutions leaving no means to counter any of the aforementioned issues and thus a cast-in-stone guarantee that it only can get worse.

Then there's the complete return of racism as a valid and mainstream position, the acceptance of discrimination and de-humanizing to deal with people (e.g. refugees from wars we started in the first place), and indeed already the normalization of genocide as a 'final solution'. In case anyone missed it, Duterte in the Philippines is doing just that, even brags about his personal participation in it and there's no reaction from anyone in the world. Zilch, nada. Ergo, it's indeed already acceptable policy again.

And then there's climate change. With nationalists in especially China, India and now the USA, the already pathetic attempts to do something against it are now over and done with. All that's left is the inherent resilience of the system itself. Admittedly that's largely an unknown. On the one hand it must necessarily be very high as life has survived for 4 billion years which is really an incredibly long time which few people can actually appreciate. During that time the system has received punches (e.g. shield volcano eruptions, impacting asteriods, etc.) of a magnitude which make the Lisboa quake or the Aceh tsunami look like an impolite burp. And yet, life prevailed. But on the other hand, no species or group of species is guaranteed to survive. There have been quite a few bottlenecks where over 95% of all living species did not make it. And it's usually the most complex species which get the boot precisely because they are complex. A species which relies on the presence of energy and technology is probably not going to get good odds here.

In case you're starting to wonder where I'm going with all this, it's to point out that all of these evolutions are interdependent and that you can't fight the one without fighting them all. So, if you want to fight all of this simultaneously, be my guest. And if you do it with reason, be aware that:
a) no one will listen unless they already know
b) you will end up being shunned and ostracized, if not worse.
I actually kind of agree with Duterte. Maybe outright killing drug addicts is extreme. But, just let them kill themselves with their adddiction, do not waste more resources on them.

You know, Russia is a world leader in abuse of various substances.

We recently had cases of mass poisoning by bad alcohol in Siberia: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN14G119

There is much hand wringing, as you see, the government has launched investigations and such, even Putin spoke out about it all. But one man, a doctor, actually, I listened to on a TV talk show a couple weeks ago, he said, do you all not see, that people who would drink fu k bath lotion (or cologne or even automobile antifreeze fluid in some cases!) are beyond help, at this point? When these people die off, it is not a bad thing, it is a natural cleansing of our society from undesirable, unproductive elements I agree with him on that.

Of course, I know I may have felt differently if personally knew and loved any of those who died...
  #75  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 02:00 PM
Sucre's Avatar
Sucre Sucre is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 335
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Can anybody explain to me what's wrong with Obama care?

From a European perspective it is unconceivable that anybody would want to lose healthcare. Fraom a rational/ financial poit of view, I do not understand how a free market health care can work better for patients? (Certainly, it does not in Germany where both regimes are available.)
__________________
Liberté ... j'écris ton nom ...
  #76  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 02:32 PM
Non Sequitur's Avatar
Non Sequitur Non Sequitur is offline
Official Forum Lutheran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Kingdom on the Left and the Right
Posts: 2,142
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
Can anybody explain to me what's wrong with Obama care?
so here are three different perspectives:
BBC

At the end of this article there is a "flaws section which basically deals with what the actual issues are. The Premium increase is a big one and has played out poorly in the news

The Atlantic
This article wonders whether Obamacare's political problems are a branding problem. This idea comes up because, when polled, many people like the coverage they are getting under Obamacare, but when asked whether they like "Obamacare" they will say no. Basically, remove the name and lots of people like it.

The Heritage Foundation
The Heritage Foundation is really conservative and this article is from 2009 when the law was first passed, however I would highlight number 2 on the list. Quite honestly, the individual mandate rubs a large percentage of the country the wrong way. We are, after all, a nation founded on a tax revolt. The idea that the government can "command" you to buy something runs counter to what many think this country stands for.

Quote:
From a European perspective it is unconceivable that anybody would want to lose healthcare. Fraom a rational/ financial poit of view, I do not understand how a free market health care can work better for patients? (Certainly, it does not in Germany where both regimes are available.)
To understand the argument you have stop thinking about it as a debate over what is the best policy from a financial standpoint. Absolutely a European system is more efficient. The real debate in America is whether, when the federal government controls, mandates, and/or forces you into healthcare programs is there then a fundamental threat to liberty.

Also, a huge part of this is basically racism and an uninformed public. A black president mandating what, for many, is a tax increase is just beyond the pale. And as I said, many people actually like the coverage and appear to just not understand that "Obamacare" is responsible for that.
__________________
Lighten our darkness.
  #77  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 07:01 PM
Dominick's Avatar
Dominick Dominick is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dying Europe
Posts: 3,837
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
"By your endurance you will gain your souls." Luke 21:19
While I was raised religiously, it was Catholicism so my Bible knowledge is subpar. I have no idea which message this is supposed to convey. Care to elaborate?
__________________
Wir haben es wieder nicht gewusst.
  #78  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 07:02 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,835
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
Can anybody explain to me what's wrong with Obama care?
Short answer? Because Obama is black. And he's a Democrat. That's pretty much it.

For example, if you do an opinion poll in Kentucky (a deep Red state) about healthcare, you will find that an overwhelming majority of the voters in Kentucky HATE "Obamacare" with a passion, but in the same damn poll, a large majority likes Kynect - which is what Obamacare/AHA is officially called in Kentucky.

In other words, Americans generally like the AHA and really like it if/when the know more about it. But when it is called "Obamacare", they immediately link it up with all the Fox News bullshit about it, and they hate it because that's what they are trained to do.

Btw, for anyone interested in comparative healthcare issues, Switzerland has the healthcare market that is most similar to the US. If the US were to improve their healthcare system, it would ideally become more like Switzerland. Anyone who speaks of "single-payer" system in the USA is just an idiot who hasn't got a clue (regardless if you think "single-payer" is a good system or not).
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
  #79  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 07:04 PM
Dominick's Avatar
Dominick Dominick is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dying Europe
Posts: 3,837
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
Can anybody explain to me what's wrong with Obama care?
It's socialism, dammit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sucre View Post
From a European perspective it is unconceivable that anybody would want to lose healthcare. Fraom a rational/ financial poit of view, I do not understand how a free market health care can work better for patients? (Certainly, it does not in Germany where both regimes are available.)
The patients are of low relevance in the US. US health care is not about health or care, it's about profit.
__________________
Wir haben es wieder nicht gewusst.
  #80  
Old Jan 23rd 2017, 07:05 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,835
Default Re: The Trump Regime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
so here are three different perspectives:
BBC

At the end of this article there is a "flaws section which basically deals with what the actual issues are. The Premium increase is a big one and has played out poorly in the news

The Atlantic
This article wonders whether Obamacare's political problems are a branding problem. This idea comes up because, when polled, many people like the coverage they are getting under Obamacare, but when asked whether they like "Obamacare" they will say no. Basically, remove the name and lots of people like it.

The Heritage Foundation
The Heritage Foundation is really conservative and this article is from 2009 when the law was first passed, however I would highlight number 2 on the list. Quite honestly, the individual mandate rubs a large percentage of the country the wrong way. We are, after all, a nation founded on a tax revolt. The idea that the government can "command" you to buy something runs counter to what many think this country stands for.



To understand the argument you have stop thinking about it as a debate over what is the best policy from a financial standpoint. Absolutely a European system is more efficient. The real debate in America is whether, when the federal government controls, mandates, and/or forces you into healthcare programs is there then a fundamental threat to liberty.

Also, a huge part of this is basically racism and an uninformed public. A black president mandating what, for many, is a tax increase is just beyond the pale. And as I said, many people actually like the coverage and appear to just not understand that "Obamacare" is responsible for that.
Indeed. All of the major provisions of the AHA (aka Obamacare) are very popular with a majority of American voters, as long as you don't call it "Obamacare" which every knows sucks real bad! Enough said.
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2008 - 2017, DiscussionWorldForum.com