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  #31  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Isn't there supposed to be some kind of a process where the accusers accuse and present evidence, the accused gets to face them, and so on? How many federal bureaucrats have an 007-type license to kill? The President, the guys sitting there at Creech Air Force base in Nevada "piloting" drones, and who else? Who are the members of this special murderer caste that doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Constitution, (not that the Constitution has any relevance anymore).
Absolutely. I'm not defending the action in practice or on principle.
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Indictment by a grand jury and a jury trial in this case. But there are others. You can read them here.
But in most instances, the citizenship is not relevant. Very few of the rights that we have in this country are limited to citizens.
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  #32  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 05:18 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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But in most instances, the citizenship is not relevant. Very few of the rights that we have in this country are limited to citizens.
When we're speaking about people outside of the US, then only US citizens are protected from government by these rules. The fourteenth does state that anyone in an American jurisdiction also has access to these protections, but we're not in a thread about that subject. In other words, if you're implying bin Laden and the Gitmo crew should have those same rights, that isn't the case legally. We can all agree the assassination of bin Laden and the state of Gitmo is a shitty, lazy, and heavy-handed policy, but it is one that is not decided by Constitutional law.
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  #33  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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When we're speaking about people outside of the US, then only US citizens are protected from government by these rules. The fourteenth does state that anyone in an American jurisdiction also has access to these protections, but we're not in a thread about that subject. In other words, if you're implying bin Laden and the Gitmo crew should have those same rights, that isn't the case legally. We can all agree the assassination of bin Laden and the state of Gitmo is a shitty, lazy, and heavy-handed policy, but it is one that is not decided by Constitutional law.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but can you show me specifically in the constitution what dictates what the government can and cannot do to citizens outside of US jurisdiction (i.e. Yemen or wherever)?
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  #34  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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I'm not trying to be obtuse, but can you show me specifically in the constitution what dictates what the government can and cannot do to citizens outside of US jurisdiction (i.e. Yemen or wherever)?
Actually, the location and/or citizenship of the victim of assassination is only partially relevant - I believe the key legal issue is the President's power as Commander-in-Chief in a warzone. Different rules apparently apply there.

I think US constitutional law is a joke and US executive authority to be entirely unrestrained by anything. But that's US law and US politics. I don't have to agree with this shit to understand that assassinating US citizens can be legal under US law.

Indeed, we already went through this issue a half-dozen years ago when GW Bush issued a similar order for the extra-territorial assassination of a US citizen (I don't believe they got him though).

Heck, under GW Bush we discovered that the President could legally order the apprehension of a US citizen INSIDE the USA (without a warrent or criminal charge) and then have him tortured.
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  #35  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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Actually, the location and/or citizenship of the victim of assassination is only partially relevant - I believe the key legal issue is the President's power as Commander-in-Chief in a warzone. Different rules apparently apply there.

I think US constitutional law is a joke and US executive authority to be entirely unrestrained by anything. But that's US law and US politics. I don't have to agree with this shit to understand that assassinating US citizens can be legal under US law.

Indeed, we already went through this issue a half-dozen years ago when GW Bush issued a similar order for the extra-territorial assassination of a US citizen (I don't believe they got him though).

Heck, under GW Bush we discovered that the President could legally order the apprehension of a US citizen INSIDE the USA (without a warrent or criminal charge) and then have him tortured.
So Yemen's a warzone now?
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  #36  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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So Yemen's a warzone now?
The entire planet is a warzone if Al Queda exists. US legal declaration (invoked selectively at convenience), not mine.
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  #37  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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The entire planet is a warzone if Al Queda exists. US legal declaration (invoked selectively at convenience), not mine.
Yeah, that's where my mind was going to. What a fucking farce.
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  #38  
Old Oct 6th 2011, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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The rule of law.

Until you can instinctively understand that this was, and should be, an extremely reprehensible illegal act, Russia cannot be ruled as a democracy and requires the heavy hand of Czar Putin.

(Note: I'm referring to the fact that you are an educated middle class Russian citizen with characteristic Russian viewpoints - if your viewpoint is popular in Russia and I suspect it is, that shows how far Russia is from the actual rule of law and democracy).

In a democracy, the integrity of the rule of law is far more important than any given criminal act. It is better to let a criminal go free than to violate the principles of the proper rules of law.
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When MeMySelfandI says "They were your country's enemies, were they not? So, your government killed them. Good for your government. I do not see what the problem is" what he is stating is pure utilitarianism such as that espoused by the late John Rawls, and currently by esteemed professor Jean Bethke Elshtain, who holds that torture, murder by drones, and anything slse the state does is acceptable, a view held by almost all philosophy professors in Western society. Utilitariasm is the ethical apology for statism which holds that whatever the state does is justified by its assumed good intentions. It holds the state as paramount, ethics which are directly opposite to the Golden Rule which speaks to the individual.

What MeMyslefand I fails to recognize is that a government is not the same as a country. A country consists of the land and the people on it. Governments come and go, but the mountains and plains remain. By his reckoning, since Jews and minorities were deemed to be enemies by the NAZi government of Germany, it was perfectly proper to kill them.
No, what I am saying is, I fail to see the problem with eliminating a terrorist, someone who is a danger to your society. By that logic, it was wrong for Russia to kill Shamil Basaev, Aslan Maskhadov, Zelimkhan Yandarbiev and other Chechen separatists, those responcible for Beslan, Nord-Ost, etc. And it was wrong for Israeli Nazi hunters to find and either assasinate or abduct old Nazis in South America and elsewhere, those who took part in the Holocaust.

I am sorry, but if that is the normal Western liberal view, I cannot share in it. War is war. If you do not kill your enemy, he kills you. It really is a simple as that. The 'rule of law' has no place in the trenches. Over there, bullets rule, not law. Death rules. That is why when we hear on the news about another group of rebels destroyed by Specnaz in the mountains, most Russians, Christian and Muslim and Buddhist and other, myself included, open a bottle of champagne and raise a salut to the brave men over there, fighting this war for all of us. They too are of all faiths and all kinds of ethnic groups, but they are Russian citizens above all, and they do their duty and, if necessary give their lives.

This is whose lives we value, Micheal, and whose honor we respect. Them, not terrorist scum that they kill.
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  #39  
Old Oct 7th 2011, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but can you show me specifically in the constitution what dictates what the government can and cannot do to citizens outside of US jurisdiction (i.e. Yemen or wherever)?
I doesn't say anything about what jurisdiction the citizen is in, but the fourteenth states...

Quote:
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
(Bolding by me.) As a citizen, these protections are implied. Globe-hoppers were pretty rare back then and America didn't really have the ability to track criminals even from state-to-state, so, no, it doesn't say exactly what the rules are about an American terrorist in Yemen.

Do you need further proof that I can read?
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  #40  
Old Oct 7th 2011, 08:12 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Obama admin executes two US citizens in Yeme

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Originally Posted by The_Dot View Post
Here is some insight into how the administration decides who to kill:



Kind of scary, IMHO. This isn't the way our justice system is supposed to work...
Not to worry. After the utilitarian ethicists like Jean Bethke Elshtain work their statist apologist magic for the Machiavellians in the government, you will come to realize that these state-sponsored killings are hunky-dory, ethical, and just as American as Mom's apple pie.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79475C20111005
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