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  #21  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 08:53 AM
The_Dot The_Dot is offline
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Opposing and pissing off the powers that control the status quo cannot be called "sheeplike" without playing a partisan game.
Really?

Let's say that Fred participates in the walk-out during the Exxon guy's speech not because he cares deeply about the peak-oil issue, but because all his friends are doing it - maybe because it feels like he's "sticking in to the man" by walking out.

How is that not sheeplike? He's moving with the flock for the sake of moving with the flock.

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Indeed, mindlessly following the official authorities no matter what is the very definition of 'sheeplike' behavior. Objecting to that is not.
Sitting there listening to someone you probably disagree with is "mindlessly following the official authorities"? How so?

Without having ANY idea where I am on the issue of climate change, you're prepared to level accusations of playing a "partisan game"? Not sure I follow how you derived that conclusion. Curious.
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  #22  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Why always?
Well for two reasons:
1. It goes back to the question of whether the ends justify the means? To this question I always answer no.

2. On a more basic level effectiveness and morality are two entirely different subjects (at least to me). Effectiveness deals with whether a course of action is able to reach certain goals. Morality deals with whether those actions and goals should be tried.
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  #23  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 01:15 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Well for two reasons:
1. It goes back to the question of whether the ends justify the means? To this question I always answer no.
Why not look at each situation differently. If someone were to break into my house and threaten to kill my family i would use whatever means i am capable of to achieve the end of stopping that from happening. Indeed, the means to me in such a situation would be irrelevant. Only the ends matter in that situation, therefore any and all means would justify that specific end. (Note that this does not necessarily imply violence, escaping the situation with family intact is also a means to the same end). But if there is nowhere to run then violence is a moral imperative.


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2. On a more basic level effectiveness and morality are two entirely different subjects (at least to me). Effectiveness deals with whether a course of action is able to reach certain goals. Morality deals with whether those actions and goals should be tried.
Yes, but the degree to which a goal is morally necessary is related to the degree of effectiveness of the methods we choose to reach that goal. In my example above the goal has to be reached by whatever means necessary.
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  #24  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Why not look at each situation differently. If someone were to break into my house and threaten to kill my family i would use whatever means i am capable of to achieve the end of stopping that from happening. Indeed, the means to me in such a situation would be irrelevant. Only the ends matter in that situation, therefore any and all means would justify that specific end. (Note that this does not necessarily imply violence, escaping the situation with family intact is also a means to the same end). But if there is nowhere to run then violence is a moral imperative.
There is a world of difference between a person breaking into a home and someone giving a commencement address.

There is no comparison, on any level, between the two.
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Old Jun 29th 2011, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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There is a world of difference between a person breaking into a home and someone giving a commencement address.

There is no comparison, on any level, between the two.
Where did i suggest harm should come to the CEO of Exxon for giving a commencement addresses? In fact i said quite clearly he should never have been invited to speak in the first place. My desire to seem him come to harm is based on his executive decision to misinform the public on climate science. To me this is a crime against humanity of huge proportions.

My break and enter example with nowhere to run is analogous to this culture killing the life-support systems of the planet. At what point do we resist that? Or do we alway just pull out the Ghandi card whenever any suggestion of resistance that may require effective applications of violence comes up?
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  #26  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Where did i suggest harm should come to the CEO of Exxon for giving a commencement addresses? In fact i said quite clearly he should never have been invited to speak in the first place. My desire to seem him come to harm is based on his executive decision to misinform the public on climate science. To me this is a crime against humanity of huge proportions.
This appears to be a call for harm as opposed to walking out of the address:

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How can there be any discourse or progress with liars? As heinberg notes in his speech it is a well documented fact that Exxon led the charge to misinform the public on matters of climate science. It an embarrassment to the school and to the students that such a man would even be allowed on campus. Walking out on him is pretty mild. I'd prefer he be beaten to a bloody pulp.
Sorry, but this really sounds very similar to this:



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Originally Posted by andrewl View Post
My break and enter example with nowhere to run is analogous to this culture killing the life-support systems of the planet. At what point do we resist that? Or do we alway just pull out the Ghandi card whenever any suggestion of resistance that may require effective applications of violence comes up?
Wow. I see I have now met what my British friends refer to as a Eco-mentalist. Murder is justified for what you declare to be crimes against the planet?

If you truly feel this way, why have you not actually done it? ( I am assuming you are not posting from a prison cell and this have not made an attempt to put your belief system into action. )
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  #27  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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This appears to be a call for harm as opposed to walking out of the address:
Harm for successfully manufacturing doubt about climate science and preventing any meaningful action to address it, not for giving a commencement address. I'm sorry that was not clear.



Quote:
Sorry, but this really sounds very similar to this:





Wow. I see I have now met what my British friends refer to as a Eco-mentalist. Murder is justified for what you declare to be crimes against the planet?

If you truly feel this way, why have you not actually done it? ( I am assuming you are not posting from a prison cell and this have not made an attempt to put your belief system into action. )
Seriously? you think that murdering those who insult a religion is the same as resistance against corporations and governments destroying the earth's life support systems? And you are resorting to insults?

I do not believe you are being honest. This is very typical of those who refuse to confront the reality of what is being done to the planet.
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  #28  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Harm for successfully manufacturing doubt about climate science and preventing any meaningful action to address it, not for giving a commencement address. I'm sorry that was not clear.
It's still advocating violence for expressing an opinion.

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Originally Posted by andrewl View Post
Seriously? you think that murdering those who insult a religion is the same as resistance against corporations and governments destroying the earth's life support systems? And you are resorting to insults?
It's not that dissimilar. You are expressing a desire to kill people because of statements they make. You disagree with them, so they are to be beaten and perhaps killed.

It is interesting to note the terms you use. Murder is "resistance"? Perhaps not.

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I do not believe you are being honest. This is very typical of those who refuse to confront the reality of what is being done to the planet.
I believe climate change is a serious issue. I just don't follow you down the path of calling for violence and murder against those who don't agree with me. I guess that means I am not as devoted to the cause as you are, or something like that. Since you are calling for violence, I'm perfectly fine with it.
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  #29  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

I very much disagree with Andrew in terms of methodology, but in fairness I think he is more interested in beating these people to a pulp because of the destruction they commit against the environment.
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  #30  
Old Jun 29th 2011, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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It's still advocating violence for expressing an opinion.
I disagree. Exxon is spending millions of dollars misinforming the public deliberately. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Quote:
It's not that dissimilar. You are expressing a desire to kill people because of statements they make. You disagree with them, so they are to be beaten and perhaps killed.
My desire is to stop them from harming the ability of the earth to support life and to stop them from misinforming the public about it. It is only a disagreement in the same way that i would disagree with someone killing my family.

Quote:
It is interesting to note the terms you use. Murder is "resistance"? Perhaps not.
The point is resistance. It may or may not include violence. The means are only important in terms of how effective they are. I simply refuse to rule out violence categorically when the opponent is more than willing to use violence.

Quote:
I believe climate change is a serious issue. I just don't follow you down the path of calling for violence and murder against those who don't agree with me. I guess that means I am not as devoted to the cause as you are, or something like that. Since you are calling for violence, I'm perfectly fine with it.
So we both are aware that the science is very clear on the fact that this culture is killing the oceans, is causing global warming, is causing the deforestation of the earth, and is literally causing a mass extinction via habitat destruction. I'm very curious why you would categorically dismiss even the possibility of violence as a means of resisting this?
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