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  #31  
Old Jul 3rd 2015, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Quote:
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Euro zone countries tried in vain to stop the IMF publishing a gloomy analysis of Greece's debt burden which the leftist government says vindicates its call to voters to reject bailout terms, sources familiar with the situation said on Friday.

The document released in Washington on Thursday said Greece's public finances will not be sustainable without substantial debt relief, possibly including write-offs by European partners of loans guaranteed by taxpayers.

It also said Greece will need at least 50 billion euros in additional aid over the next three years to keep itself afloat.

Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and the Washington-based global lender that has been simmering behind closed doors for months.
Source

So the EU is trying to hide the facts eh?

The plot thickens!
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  #32  
Old Jul 4th 2015, 02:11 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

How Greece got to owe it soul to the company store, the IMF and World Bank:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...onomic-hit-men
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  #33  
Old Jul 4th 2015, 09:28 AM
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NickKIELCEPoland NickKIELCEPoland is offline
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Tomorrow Greece are having a referendum.
"A referendum to decide whether or not Greece is to accept the bailout conditions proposed jointly by the European Commission (EC), the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the European Central Bank (ECB) on 25 June 2015, is due to take place on 5 July 2015."
Opinion polls are very very close.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...ferendum,_2015
The Greek government is campaigning for a no-vote, while the Eurozone leadership overall, hopes for a yes result.

Last edited by NickKIELCEPoland; Jul 4th 2015 at 09:32 AM.
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  #34  
Old Jul 5th 2015, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Best line I've read on this issue recently...

"Germany hasn't tried to destroy Europe for quite a few decades lately so this latest attempt is way overdue."

And what really annoys me most about this whole Greek debt debate is the way the EU/IMF seems obsessed with the idea of 'spendthrift debtors' but seems to completely ignore the corresponding 'reckless and foolish creditors'. It takes two to tango and it requires a whole lot of 'reckless and foolish creditors' in order to create a Greek mountain of debt.
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  #35  
Old Jul 5th 2015, 03:09 PM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

This Greek "no" vote may be a victory for the little guy over the crony capitalist elite banksters who made the IMF loans and the crony capitalists who benefited from the IMF loans that the little working stiffs were supposed to pay off.

Unless the CIA orchestrates a coup or something.
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  #36  
Old Jul 5th 2015, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
So these particular financial shenanigans have brought down Greece but no where else in the western world where they are all equally applied?
Oh but they had (e.g. Iceland) and have. Just wait a bit. Greece's situation is far from unique. Other countries have other -but admittedly better- ways of hiding their true entire debt. E.g. Belgium and Germany channel it to their regions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
You are mistaken. Your statement in reply is entirely ideological, mine was purely factual.

Fact: every western country has been living a 'government provided' lifestyle that they are not ready, willing or able to pay for. This is proven by the massive annual deficits of western governments and their annually accumlated national debts.

Fact: if Bill Gates owes a million dollars and you owe a million dollars, the debt comparison is not the same. Bill Gates' ability to repay the debt is substantially greater than yours. Thus, even if say Italy had the same level of debt as Greece, Italy might have a substantially greater ability to repay the debt than Greece does, even though the level of debt be the same.
That's not the correct analogy. If I owned a personal debt to the same amount as my yearly income and Bill owned a personal debt to the amount of his then we'd be in the same situation. GDP is GDP. There was nothing wrong with Greece's economy before 2008.

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
This is a valid point. The policies that have been enacted in Greece since the debt crisis began, supported by the EU, IMF and the banker-creditors of Greece, have been disasterous and in many ways, ideologically motivated. No argument there.

But that is entirely beside the point that the nation of Greece incurred these debts - over a course of many decades - that the nation of Greece is quite unready, unwilling or unable to repay.

That is to say, the crisis in Greece wasn't caused by any austerity policy (quite the contrary actually). The crisis in Greece began when Greece's creditors refused to offer ever more credit to roll over Greek national debt that was just growing ever larger. That's what happened. No ideology required. Banks have no obligation to re-finance anyone's debt.
Depends on what you call the crisis. I call millions of people at starvation level poverty a crisis. None of those have ran off with the goods in the past. Those who did are not in a life and death predicament today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
I refuse to give a pass to the voters and citizens of Greece who have consistently and constantly - for over half a century - demanded higher and increasing levels of government spending and were unready, unwilling or unable to pay for that government spending.

Certainly the Greek ruling elite class has a large share of the blame for the state of affairs in Greece over the last century. But they didn't follow this policy alone and against the wishes of the Greek citizenry. The Greek people had many opportunities to vote against this policy - they never did.
If the EU and global finance experts didn't know what the real situation was, how was the average Greek to know?
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  #37  
Old Jul 5th 2015, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This Greek "no" vote may be a victory for the little guy over the crony capitalist elite banksters who made the IMF loans and the crony capitalists who benefited from the IMF loans that the little working stiffs were supposed to pay off.

Unless the CIA orchestrates a coup or something.
No need for the CIA. If Syriza fails, the next landslide victory will go to Golden Dawn (). That might suit the EU better. They don't have a problem with Hungary violating every human right in the books either.
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  #38  
Old Jul 5th 2015, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Step 1 to the recovery of Greek solvency:

Identify the 15,000 Greek nationals with off shore accounts. Issue international arrest warrants against them. Seize their assets.

Quite possibly: problem solved.

Hint: they're not pensioners, unemployed, school teachers, cement workers or ship welders.
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  #39  
Old Jul 6th 2015, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
...There was nothing wrong with Greece's economy before 2008.
This is entirely absurd.

From the OECD Economic Survey of Greece, 2000:

- unemployment rate 11.5% is amongst the highest in Europe
- income per capita is amongst the lowest in Europe
- national debt equal to 100% of GDP and is the highest in Europe
- budget deficit equal to 4.6% of revenues and higher than average in Europe
- government running a 6% primary surplus (without debt repayments, meaning that over 10% of government revenues are presently going to service interest on the debt)
- really bad demographic factors (aging workforce, one of the oldest in Europe)
- healthcare reform is non-existent, but desperately necessary to control increasing cost over-runs
- government acknowledges that "human resource management is rigid, service is poor and remuneration is low, leading to high transaction costs" (ie. lots of government corruption)
- unemployment rate for those under 25 years of age is highest in Eurozone
- due to income tax revenue being about half the European average, Greece relies heavily on payroll taxes, resulting in a comparatively very high cost of labor which acts as a drag on employment and the economy as a whole
- employment rate (52-54% average) that is way below European norms (approx 60%)
- current account deficit averaging more than 3% since 1980 (non-stop negative)
- trade deficit of about 10% (also consistent since 1980, non-stop negative)

Source

Quote:
Olympics 'may cost Greece dear'

The 2004 Olympics has already given host nation Greece a significant economic boost - but experts have warned it may be in for a hard landing.

PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) warned soaring costs and budget overruns could leave the country with hefty debts
Source

The Olympics news report is dated 2004. There is a huge wave of reports from 2004 warning that Greek deficit and debt rates were rising faster than expected due to massive cost over-runs associated with Olympic and infrastructure spending programs. That's on top of the fact that Greece was already the most indebted nation in Europe with non-stop government deficits being used to pay for it - even before they went on an Olympic-debt-fueled spending binge.

Bottom line is that this shows that in the 2000-2004 period, Greece was the basketcase of Europe, suffering from very low levels of employment, very high levels of unemployment, high debt levels, low productivity, inefficient and expensive public services, high levels of public corruption and strongly negative trends in both current accounts and trade deficits.

That's a recipe for exactly what's happening now in Greece. Suffice it to say that every negative prediction about Greek economy since 2000 has been proven to be true and every positive prediction about the Greek economy since 2000 has been proven to be false. Greece in 2015 is exactly where one would expect it to be based on the 2000 survey, assuming the Greeks would do nothing about their problems, which they didn't, and would keep increasing spending and cutting taxes, which they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
If the EU and global finance experts didn't know what the real situation was, how was the average Greek to know?
The data shows that the EU, global and Greek financial experts knew exactly what the real situation was. This information has always been publicly available. Everyone chose to ignore it or pretend it was just temporary, not a constant and consistent trend for 50 years, which it was.

They all desperately wanted to believe that Greece could turn it all around and magically become prosperous and solvent. It didn't.
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  #40  
Old Jul 7th 2015, 05:33 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Greek government balance sheet 2010-2012:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gree...ih=585&dpr=1.5
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