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  #11  
Old Jun 28th 2011, 04:33 PM
The_Dot The_Dot is offline
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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How can there be any discourse or progress with liars? As heinberg notes in his speech it is a well documented fact that Exxon led the charge to misinform the public on matters of climate science. It an embarrassment to the school and to the students that such a man would even be allowed on campus. Walking out on him is pretty mild. I'd prefer he be beaten to a bloody pulp.

Andrew
Wow. Violence is a recourse for those you disagree with? Perhaps even murder?

That's just sad.
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  #12  
Old Jun 28th 2011, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Wow. Violence is a recourse for those you disagree with? Perhaps even murder?

That's just sad.
It's not a disagreement on opinion. They spend millions of dollars effectively misinforming the public on perhaps the two most critical issues the world faces, energy and the environment, and then they are invited to spew their garbage to graduating students right before they move into the work force. That is what is sad.

Exxon is killing all of us. Im all in favor of laying the beats to these people and using direct action to stop them from functioning. The world is not going to magically change, the corporations and governments are going to continue destroying the biosphere.

Their most effective tool to get what they want is violence (be it war in the ME for control and access to oil, or be it logging corps in the amazon sending out goons to murder activists). Why should we dismiss violence as a means of stopping them?

Violence is a part of humanity, and it can be very effective.

Andrew
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  #13  
Old Jun 28th 2011, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Violence is a part of humanity, and it can be very effective.

Andrew
effectiveness and morality are always two different subjects.
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Old Jun 28th 2011, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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It's not a disagreement on opinion. They spend millions of dollars effectively misinforming the public on perhaps the two most critical issues the world faces, energy and the environment, and then they are invited to spew their garbage to graduating students right before they move into the work force. That is what is sad.

Exxon is killing all of us. Im all in favor of laying the beats to these people and using direct action to stop them from functioning. The world is not going to magically change, the corporations and governments are going to continue destroying the biosphere.

Their most effective tool to get what they want is violence (be it war in the ME for control and access to oil, or be it logging corps in the amazon sending out goons to murder activists). Why should we dismiss violence as a means of stopping them?

Violence is a part of humanity, and it can be very effective.

Andrew
So, is there any room for dissent or debate on this topic, or must all dissent by met with violence?

(note that no matter what you say here, it's pretty much a matter of degree. The proverbial Slippery Slope if you will).
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Old Jun 28th 2011, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Sadly, this also reflects the sad state of affairs we have arrived at as a people:



Aside from being pathetically poor manners, this closed-mindedness is not a good sign for anyone.

Are we truly to the point where we cannot sit and listen to a point of view that we don't agree with? Or must every thought and word conform rigidly to the "correct" line of reasoning in order to even be heard?

Objectively, the chances are that regardless of one's beliefs on the issue, there were useful and valid points in both speeches. It used to be that institutions of higher learning instilled a respect for opposing views.

Truly sad.
Actually, universities have a much longer history of political protesting than they do as being institutions of higher learning. And universities have never taught respect for anything except the status quo and authority.

As for teaching respect for opposing views, there isn't much history of universities doing that before the 20th century. Universities in the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries would expell you for not worshipping sufficiently the truths they chose to indoctrinate you with.

Personally, I consider the fact that a large number of students walked out on the official guest to be a sign of promise and hope. The world has too many sheep already.

Indeed, modern university administrations also have a HUGE history of trying to politically indoctrinate students to be good little plebs and NEVER question authority. They are always trying to control the politics on campus to favor the corporate status quo (which is always opposed by the student body).
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Old Jun 28th 2011, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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Actually, universities have a much longer history of political protesting than they do as being institutions of higher learning. And universities have never taught respect for anything except the status quo and authority.

As for teaching respect for opposing views, there isn't much history of universities doing that before the 20th century. Universities in the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries would expell you for not worshipping sufficiently the truths they chose to indoctrinate you with.

Personally, I consider the fact that a large number of students walked out on the official guest to be a sign of promise and hope. The world has too many sheep already.

Indeed, modern university administrations also have a HUGE history of trying to politically indoctrinate students to be good little plebs and NEVER question authority. They are always trying to control the politics on campus to favor the corporate status quo (which is always opposed by the student body).
The walkout seems a bit, well, sheepy as well. It's all a matter of which shepherd is being followed.

Apparently, though, the walk-out should instead have been a lynching. At least, that appears to be what Andrew is suggesting. Who knew?
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Old Jun 28th 2011, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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I'm not suggesting it would be exciting.

But this is no different that the closed-minded folks who won't listen to a Presidential address today because of who the President is. It's a sign of intellectual weakness, just as it would be if students listened to the Exxon guy and then walked out on the Post Carbon speaker.
I haven't listened to a presidential address in I can't remember when regardless of who was/is in office. Boring as watching paint dry. Anyone who can read should be well aware of what any oil company leadership is going to say in a speech; more of the same old, tired drivel promoting that industry while rationalizing the exhaustion of a finite resource.

That school is graduating students of science, not liberal arts. I'm pleased for their generation that they're not condoning corporate PR and misinformation for their graduation ceremony.
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Old Jun 28th 2011, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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The walkout seems a bit, well, sheepy as well. It's all a matter of which shepherd is being followed.
Opposing and pissing off the powers that control the status quo cannot be called "sheeplike" without playing a partisan game.

Indeed, mindlessly following the official authorities no matter what is the very definition of 'sheeplike' behavior. Objecting to that is not.
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Old Jun 29th 2011, 01:46 AM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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effectiveness and morality are always two different subjects.
Why always?
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Old Jun 29th 2011, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Peak Oil: A Chance to Change the World

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So, is there any room for dissent or debate on this topic, or must all dissent by met with violence?

(note that no matter what you say here, it's pretty much a matter of degree. The proverbial Slippery Slope if you will).
Sure. There is always room for honest dissent and debate. That is not what is happening here.

I wholly disagree that it is just a matter of degree. Yes, there are degrees, but there is also right and wrong. I know that destroying the the earth's life support systems is wrong, not kinda wrong. I'm mainly concerned that doing nothing about this problem, immediately, will result in the most horrendous degree of violence that this culture is capable of.
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