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  #41  
Old Jun 19th 2012, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Americano View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree. I view it as socialism ran amok from a decade ago and you feel a 50% haircut for investors isn't enough to rectify Greece's blunders. .
You keep flogging that dead horse but Greece was alternately run by liberal-democrats and social-democrats during that period. And social-democrats, especially in the last twenty years or so, are economically anything but socialists. In the UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Greece, etc. the social democrats have ALL supported the implementation of neo-liberal and anti-social policies. The actual socialist party in Greece, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, was no part of the government.
There has been very little socialism in Europe since the days of Reagan/Thatcher. I'll make you a list of the real socialist parties in Europe if you want. None of them has been involved in the explosion of the public debt since the 1970's, early 1980's.

Furthermore, isn't it hilarious that the parties that were the originators of the debt, i.c. Νέα Δημοκρατία and ΠΑΣΟΚ, and who were vilified for that, are now esteemed the saviours of Greece, the Euro and the Eurozone because they're not ΣΥΡΙΖΑ? Politics really is targeted at people with very short memories.

NB
ΣΥΡΙΖΑ = Syriza
Νέα Δημοκρατία = New Democracy
ΠΑΣΟΚ = PASOK
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  #42  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
You keep flogging that dead horse but Greece was alternately run by liberal-democrats and social-democrats during that period. And social-democrats, especially in the last twenty years or so, are economically anything but socialists. In the UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Greece, etc. the social democrats have ALL supported the implementation of neo-liberal and anti-social policies. The actual socialist party in Greece, ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, was no part of the government.
There has been very little socialism in Europe since the days of Reagan/Thatcher. I'll make you a list of the real socialist parties in Europe if you want. None of them has been involved in the explosion of the public debt since the 1970's, early 1980's.

Furthermore, isn't it hilarious that the parties that were the originators of the debt, i.c. Νέα Δημοκρατία and ΠΑΣΟΚ, and who were vilified for that, are now esteemed the saviours of Greece, the Euro and the Eurozone because they're not ΣΥΡΙΖΑ? Politics really is targeted at people with very short memories.

NB
ΣΥΡΙΖΑ = Syriza
Νέα Δημοκρατία = New Democracy
ΠΑΣΟΚ = PASOK
I don't care about the political parties. They come and go. I'm referring to elected officials incurring unserviceable debt to secure a false, higher standard of living for the citizenry in exchange for votes. Is that not citizen responsibility?
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  #43  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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I don't care about the political parties. They come and go. I'm referring to elected officials incurring unserviceable debt to secure a false, higher standard of living for the citizenry in exchange for votes. Is that not citizen responsibility?
What about elected officials incurring unserviceable debt in order to please the bankers (or in return for kickbacks from bankers) in hopes of gaining bank employment after being trashed out of political office for being incompetent? Is that citizen responsibility?

There are always different ways to look at any issue.

Indeed, US military spending gets inflated specifically by this process of military personnel seeking favor with defense contractors in return for defense contractor employment post-military career. This should be considered criminal behavior, but in the US military, it earns promotions. Same game with politicians - they also get promotions for pleasing bankers and screwing the taxpayer.
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  #44  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Americano View Post
I don't care about the political parties. They come and go. I'm referring to elected officials incurring unserviceable debt to secure a false, higher standard of living for the citizenry in exchange for votes. Is that not citizen responsibility?
Whatever it is, it is not "socialism run amok" which was your initial (and often repeated) claim. Syriza was founded precisely against the neo-liberal policies of PASOK and New Democracy which are the parties that are responsible for the deficits. If anything it's (right-wing) neo-liberalism run amok.
And that doesn't just go for Greece but for all those countries that are knee-deep in poo.
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  #45  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Whatever it is, it is not "socialism run amok" which was your initial (and often repeated) claim. Syriza was founded precisely against the neo-liberal policies of PASOK and New Democracy which are the parties that are responsible for the deficits. If anything it's (right-wing) neo-liberalism run amok.
And that doesn't just go for Greece but for all those countries that are knee-deep in poo.
Yes, I'll certainly agree with this. The worst hit countries in Europe over the last four years have been the ones that were following the 'so-called' American model with high levels of imports, with record high trade/payments deficits and riding easy money real estate bubbles and artificial housing construction booms. That is to say, Iceland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Latvia (following the USA). Oddly enough, I don't think Greece was playing that same game (I don't know if Greece had a real estate bubble going like all the others).

Btw, Canada under the Conservative party felt left out of the party and has worked hard to catch up so that Canada now has exactly the same problem (but we are just at the top of our real estate bubble now - featuring million dollar bungalows in the leafy inner-suburbs of both Vancouver and Toronto - created AFTER 2008 meltdown in the USA).

Anytime one of these bubbles pop, that spikes the debt rates (for both public and private entities) as well as the cost of servicing debt. That means that debt levels that may be considered normal/average/noproblem today, can turn into "danger-zone-debt" overnight when interest rates fluctuate and aged debts come due with unfortunate timing.

The spike in borrowing costs encourages the government to cut spending so they don't need to borrow so much - but that process hurts the economy so that overall spending contracts and thus tax revenues fall in turn. That just makes the government spending problem worse. All of this is unfolding across almost all of Europe right now.

Basically, the ECB and many European governments are doing what can only be called "anti-Keynesian" policy by cutting public spending during an economic contraction period (making the contraction worse).
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  #46  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Greece

Fun question: Why don't the Greeks and the Spaniards just go to the US Fed and borrow billions on overnights at zero interest like the big bankrupt American banks were allowed to do?
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  #47  
Old Jun 20th 2012, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
What about elected officials incurring unserviceable debt in order to please the bankers (or in return for kickbacks from bankers) in hopes of gaining bank employment after being trashed out of political office for being incompetent? Is that citizen responsibility?

There are always different ways to look at any issue.

Indeed, US military spending gets inflated specifically by this process of military personnel seeking favor with defense contractors in return for defense contractor employment post-military career. This should be considered criminal behavior, but in the US military, it earns promotions. Same game with politicians - they also get promotions for pleasing bankers and screwing the taxpayer.
The US citizenry elects that leadership and worships its military. Democracy in action. Until something goes wrong and then begins the search for blame. To repeat myself, if their bread and circus remain at acceptable levels the masses seldom question anything, regardless of governing system.
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  #48  
Old Aug 26th 2013, 08:30 AM
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Default Re: Greece

Greece 'may need 10bn euros more' in aid - Stournaras

Gee, what a surprise. When you destroy a country and push most of the population in abject poverty and unemployment it needs more help. Who could've thought ? Strange huh.
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  #49  
Old Aug 26th 2013, 08:55 AM
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Default Re: Greece

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Greece 'may need 10bn euros more' in aid - Stournaras

Gee, what a surprise. When you destroy a country and push most of the population in abject poverty and unemployment it needs more help. Who could've thought ? Strange huh.
Greece did it pretty good job of destroying itself with debt to live beyond its means.
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  #50  
Old Aug 26th 2013, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Greece

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Greece 'may need 10bn euros more' in aid - Stournaras

Gee, what a surprise. When you destroy a country and push most of the population in abject poverty and unemployment it needs more help. Who could've thought ? Strange huh.
Pretty clear that austerity is a failed policy entirely.
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