Discussion World Forum  


Go Back   Discussion World Forum > Politics & Current Events > World Politics (Non-US)

World Politics (Non-US) For discussions of politics, issues and elections from around the world.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 09:51 AM
dilettante's Avatar
dilettante dilettante is offline
Moderator
Resident Historian
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,082
Default Re: Greece

So how does that whole referendum thing work, actually?

From a US perspective, I'm not sure there's any parallel. If Obama just unilaterally decided to refer some major political/economic question to a popular referendum, I'm pretty sure Congress would just laugh at him and the SCOTUS would say "you can't do that."

But apparently Papandreou did just that, all by himself, in Greece?
__________________
kyrie eleison
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 10:18 AM
Americano's Avatar
Americano Americano is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,614
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
So how does that whole referendum thing work, actually?

From a US perspective, I'm not sure there's any parallel. If Obama just unilaterally decided to refer some major political/economic question to a popular referendum, I'm pretty sure Congress would just laugh at him and the SCOTUS would say "you can't do that."

But apparently Papandreou did just that, all by himself, in Greece?
First the Greek Parliament has to approve a referendum bill. If approved, the measure then goes to the voters for a decision. Papandreou currently has a slim party majority (152/300) but six of his supporters have threatened to resign if the referendum bill moves forward.

If approved, the earliest a vote could be held is December or more likely January. Without an injection of funds, Greece goes belly-up in mid-January.
__________________
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
~H.L. Mencken~
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 10:54 AM
dilettante's Avatar
dilettante dilettante is offline
Moderator
Resident Historian
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,082
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
First the Greek Parliament has to approve a referendum bill. If approved, the measure then goes to the voters for a decision. Papandreou currently has a slim party majority (152/300) but six of his supporters have threatened to resign if the referendum bill moves forward.

If approved, the earliest a vote could be held is December or more likely January. Without an injection of funds, Greece goes belly-up in mid-January.
Ah. Thanks. That part hadn't filtered through to me.
__________________
kyrie eleison
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 11:47 AM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickKIELCEPoland View Post
The Greek Prime Minister has decided that the Greek people must approve the debt repayment plan, in a referendum, before it can be implemented.

I hope that the voting sheets say, "If you answer no, please go to question 2. Question 2, how do you suggest Greece pays the debt back?"

If someone rejects a plan, they must have another plan up their sleeve. That's the rule.
Default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
Populations get the governments and indirectly business structures the majority voted for, nothing more, nothing less. Not a peep when economic times are good. When times get tough it inevitably becomes a blame game, with blame focused anywhere but on the whining populace itself.
If they blame the government and financial institutions that they allowed to destroy their economy, is that blame misplaced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
So how does that whole referendum thing work, actually?

From a US perspective, I'm not sure there's any parallel. If Obama just unilaterally decided to refer some major political/economic question to a popular referendum, I'm pretty sure Congress would just laugh at him and the SCOTUS would say "you can't do that."

But apparently Papandreou did just that, all by himself, in Greece?
There is no structure for a national referendum in the United States.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 05:54 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,823
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
If approved, the earliest a vote could be held is December or more likely January. Without an injection of funds, Greece goes belly-up in mid-January.
Correction: French banks go belly up mid-January. Greece doesn't.

That's an important distinction. Greece will still be there. The French banks won't.

It is important to see what is driving this dynamic. Hint: it isn't Greece or Greek debt. The Euro-elites are worried about French bankers, not Greek peasants.
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old Nov 2nd 2011, 09:20 PM
Americano's Avatar
Americano Americano is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,614
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Correction: French banks go belly up mid-January. Greece doesn't.

That's an important distinction. Greece will still be there. The French banks won't.

It is important to see what is driving this dynamic. Hint: it isn't Greece or Greek debt. The Euro-elites are worried about French bankers, not Greek peasants.
If necessary France will nationalize 'keeper' banks to maintain their vast domestic pension exposure to derivatives (a serious US issue). For France to virtually beg China to step in with financial assistance is indicative of the crisis level. France, the former Indochina colonial despot begging China for assistance is almost laughable. We'll certainly see how important French and Greek markets are to China. China is within a decade of absorbing US and EU consumer exports by internal consumption.

Greece has used debt to live far beyond its means since going through civil war, then military rule and finally discovering democracy where the citizenry could vote itself a higher standard of living through debt assumption encouraged by its elected representatives. Greece will always be there but how it maintains retirement pensions for all equaling workforce income with a majority of its infrastructure nationalized and no sovereign credit will be an interesting scenario.
__________________
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
~H.L. Mencken~
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Nov 3rd 2011, 05:47 PM
Michael's Avatar
Michael Michael is offline
Administrator
Herder of Cats
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14,823
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
If necessary France will nationalize 'keeper' banks to maintain their vast domestic pension exposure to derivatives (a serious US issue). For France to virtually beg China to step in with financial assistance is indicative of the crisis level. France, the former Indochina colonial despot begging China for assistance is almost laughable. We'll certainly see how important French and Greek markets are to China. China is within a decade of absorbing US and EU consumer exports by internal consumption.
Agreed. It is a significant sign of the times that France is reduced to begging China for help.

The French government is acting just like the US government - the only policy they are interested in is one that preserves the status quo (which is wildly corrupt and dysfunctional - but highly profitable for their own elite class).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
Greece has used debt to live far beyond its means since going through civil war, then military rule and finally discovering democracy where the citizenry could vote itself a higher standard of living through debt assumption encouraged by its elected representatives. Greece will always be there but how it maintains retirement pensions for all equaling workforce income with a majority of its infrastructure nationalized and no sovereign credit will be an interesting scenario.
Yes, Greece called all this down on their own heads by their own actions. No doubt about that.

And yes, a sovereign default isn't likely to be pretty, but I'm thinking it would probably be less bad for the Greek citizenry than impoverishing the country in order to pay for a bailout of the incompetent and very rich elites of France/EU.
__________________
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Nov 3rd 2011, 08:14 PM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Greece

It took Argentina like four Presidents in as many years (iirc) to sort it out, but they came out feeling pretty ok in the end.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Nov 3rd 2011, 09:31 PM
Americano's Avatar
Americano Americano is offline
Globetrotter
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,614
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
And yes, a sovereign default isn't likely to be pretty, but I'm thinking it would probably be less bad for the Greek citizenry than impoverishing the country in order to pay for a bailout of the incompetent and very rich elites of France/EU.
Looking at Greece statistics I don't think they have much choice. 65% of their exports are to other EU members while trade deficits are downright scary as a net importer of food, petroleum, natural gas and almost all industrial equipment. A new (or old) currency with no natural resources or technology exports to back it would make Greece the world bargain basement tourist destination for unknown decades.

Greece citizenry lived too high on the hog with no sound economic basis and there's always a price to pay for those mistakes. Their recent current account history is almost a log of debt proceeds. The question is whether or not EU pockets are deep enough to facilitate an eventual recovery for Greece, even with (to Greek citizenry) draconian austerity measures. Some doubt it. And then there's Italy.
__________________
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
~H.L. Mencken~
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Nov 3rd 2011, 09:34 PM
Donkey's Avatar
Donkey Donkey is offline
Official Forum Mascot
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 7,771
Default Re: Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
Looking at Greece statistics I don't think they have much choice. 65% of their exports are to other EU members while trade deficits are downright scary as a net importer of food, petroleum, natural gas and almost all industrial equipment. A new (or old) currency with no natural resources or technology exports to back it would make Greece the world bargain basement tourist destination for unknown decades.

Greece citizenry lived too high on the hog with no sound economic basis and there's always a price to pay for those mistakes. Their recent current account history is almost a log of debt proceeds. The question is whether or not EU pockets are deep enough to facilitate an eventual recovery for Greece, even with (to Greek citizenry) draconian austerity measures. Some doubt it. And then there's Italy.
Square this with the article that Michael posted in the other thread and I copied into this one? I guess it's more convenient to ignore it.
__________________
"It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize."
Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008 - 2017, DiscussionWorldForum.com