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Old Dec 13th 2015, 09:57 AM
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Default Saudi = ISIS

A nice shiny new meme has popped up on the internet and it apparently is driving the House of Saud crazy. The Saudi government is threatening to sue anyone who says it or repeats it.

SAUDI = ISIS
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Old Dec 13th 2015, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

The 9/11 attack in NY was masterminded and financed by a Saudi Arabian named Osama bin Laden. A majority of the terrorists recruited for that operation were Saudi Arabian.

In response to the attack, NATO invaded Afghanistan in order to overthrow the Taliban regime that controlled Afghanistan and aided and abetted the 9/11 attack. The Taliban regime was financed and supported by Saudi sources.

Subsequent to the invasion of Afghanistan, the US government [with Tony Blair's help] launched an invasion of Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein which lead to the breakdown of the Iraqi state and a seemingly never ending religious-civil-secular war in Iraq ever since. The Sunni opposition in this long running civil war has always been financed and supported by Saudi sources.

ISIS operating in northern Syria and western Iraq is a defacto continuation/extension of the Sunni rear-guard operation in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam. ISIS is financed and supported by Saudi sources (not to mention clandestine Turkish support as well). The ongoing attempt to overthrow the Assad government in Syria also shares Saudi and Turkish sources of finance and support.

The Paris terrorist attack was an ISIS operation. Thus the Saudis are thus closely connected with both the 9/11 attack and the Paris attack, amongst other major terrorist attacks outside the Middle East (Madrid or Bali for example). In many of these cases the perpetrators were not recruited from the Middle East, but were 'home-grown' terrorists with strong connections between the perpetrators of these acts and Saudi-financed madrases preaching wahhabism (see San Bernardino attack for a recent example).

The conclusion is obvious. Any western military operation directed towards the Middle East that does not have the primary goal of forcing a change of regime in Saudi Arabia is a complete and random waste of money, resources and human lives.

We should at least start by calling the Saudis what they are and treating them accordingly, rather than pretending that they are a civilized nation. If the Saudis threaten oil war, we should call that bluff for that's what it would be. Saudis need to sell oil even more badly than western countries need to buy Saudi oil - without oil export revenues the Saudi have absolutely nothing and no power.
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Old Dec 14th 2015, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
The 9/11 attack in NY was masterminded and financed by a Saudi Arabian named Osama bin Laden. A majority of the terrorists recruited for that operation were Saudi Arabian.
True, but Osama was a both a renegade Saudi and a renegade bin Laden, meaning that his inspiration, if you can call it that, was a reaction against the vested interests in Saudi Arabia, including the house of Saud and his own family. His issue was precisely the links between the Saudis and the West you have a problem with, albeit from a completely different perspective of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
In response to the attack, NATO invaded Afghanistan in order to overthrow the Taliban regime that controlled Afghanistan and aided and abetted the 9/11 attack. The Taliban regime was financed and supported by Saudi sources.

Subsequent to the invasion of Afghanistan, the US government [with Tony Blair's help] launched an invasion of Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein which lead to the breakdown of the Iraqi state and a seemingly never ending religious-civil-secular war in Iraq ever since. The Sunni opposition in this long running civil war has always been financed and supported by Saudi sources.

ISIS operating in northern Syria and western Iraq is a defacto continuation/extension of the Sunni rear-guard operation in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam. ISIS is financed and supported by Saudi sources (not to mention clandestine Turkish support as well). The ongoing attempt to overthrow the Assad government in Syria also shares Saudi and Turkish sources of finance and support.

The Paris terrorist attack was an ISIS operation. Thus the Saudis are thus closely connected with both the 9/11 attack and the Paris attack, amongst other major terrorist attacks outside the Middle East (Madrid or Bali for example). In many of these cases the perpetrators were not recruited from the Middle East, but were 'home-grown' terrorists with strong connections between the perpetrators of these acts and Saudi-financed madrases preaching wahhabism (see San Bernardino attack for a recent example).

The conclusion is obvious. Any western military operation directed towards the Middle East that does not have the primary goal of forcing a change of regime in Saudi Arabia is a complete and random waste of money, resources and human lives.

We should at least start by calling the Saudis what they are and treating them accordingly, rather than pretending that they are a civilized nation. If the Saudis threaten oil war, we should call that bluff for that's what it would be. Saudis need to sell oil even more badly than western countries need to buy Saudi oil - without oil export revenues the Saudi have absolutely nothing and no power.
There are a number of issues here.

First of all the situation in the field is far more complex than a black and white Sunni-Shi'a juxtaposition. According to people in the field there are up to a thousand (1000 !!) factions at any given time. Both the groups themselves and their alliances are very volatile. Some of them are not even based on religion at all, some belong to other Islam subcategories than Sunni or Shi'a and within both Sunni and Shi'a there are no less variations than there are in Christianity. So the first problem is : who's who?

Secondy, while the original source of the wealth of the house of Saud does come from crude oil, those revenues have been put to use and the economical links between them and our countries are now far more intertwined than just oil exports. There's banking, there's construction (check out the bin Laden Group alone, yes, that bin Laden family), there's so many things. And above all there's the arms trade. France (yes, France) just made a huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia.

The thing is, the elites in the world have become a single mesh, they're all intertwined with each other, even if they're supposedly oppositional. If you want too get rid of the house of Saud, you need to get rid of OUR elites too. They're a single organism.

Thirdly, Saudi Arabia isn't the only financier in the region. The Emirates play a very similar role and if anything are even more intertwined with 'our' corporations.

Fourthly and most worrisomely, there's this little town in Saudi Arabia which make it impossible for the West to force 'a change of regime in Saudi Arabia'. It's called Mecca. Any attack on Saudi Arabia is an attack on Mecca is an attack on all of Islam. Then the shit would really hit the fan.
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Old Dec 14th 2015, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
True, but Osama was a both a renegade Saudi and a renegade bin Laden, meaning that his inspiration, if you can call it that, was a reaction against the vested interests in Saudi Arabia, including the house of Saud and his own family. His issue was precisely the links between the Saudis and the West you have a problem with, albeit from a completely different perspective of course.


There are a number of issues here.

First of all the situation in the field is far more complex than a black and white Sunni-Shi'a juxtaposition. According to people in the field there are up to a thousand (1000 !!) factions at any given time. Both the groups themselves and their alliances are very volatile. Some of them are not even based on religion at all, some belong to other Islam subcategories than Sunni or Shi'a and within both Sunni and Shi'a there are no less variations than there are in Christianity. So the first problem is : who's who?

Secondy, while the original source of the wealth of the house of Saud does come from crude oil, those revenues have been put to use and the economical links between them and our countries are now far more intertwined than just oil exports. There's banking, there's construction (check out the bin Laden Group alone, yes, that bin Laden family), there's so many things. And above all there's the arms trade. France (yes, France) just made a huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia.

The thing is, the elites in the world have become a single mesh, they're all intertwined with each other, even if they're supposedly oppositional. If you want too get rid of the house of Saud, you need to get rid of OUR elites too. They're a single organism.

Thirdly, Saudi Arabia isn't the only financier in the region. The Emirates play a very similar role and if anything are even more intertwined with 'our' corporations.

Fourthly and most worrisomely, there's this little town in Saudi Arabia which make it impossible for the West to force 'a change of regime in Saudi Arabia'. It's called Mecca. Any attack on Saudi Arabia is an attack on Mecca is an attack on all of Islam. Then the shit would really hit the fan.
Nothing what you say changes anything. I'm just analyzing the situation. My point is simple. Until we have regime change in Saudi, any western military operation in the Middle East is a fool's game. Saudi Arabia is the problem and the source. Addressing anything else is just pissing in the wind at best, serving Saudi's interest at worst.

I'm just trying to show that any western military operation in the Middle East that isn't attacking Saudi is playing some other game that has nothing to do with reducing terrorism. Throwing bombs at Syria is what we are doing (US, France and now UK) and I'm curious why we are doing that since that policy can only kill people, increase Islamic radicalism and increase the probability of anti-western terrorism. I wonder what the real game these countries are playing is since their policy is clearly designed to increase Islamic terrorism and increase Islamic radicalism. Why do they want to do that?
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Old Dec 15th 2015, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

It looks like Saudi Arabia countered any future criticism and/or intervention by setting up a 'coalition against terrorism' which joins Jordan, the UAE, Pakistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Benin, Turkey, Chad, Togo, Tunisia, Djibouti, Senegal, Sudan, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Gabon, Guinea, the partially-recognized state of Palestine, the Islamic Federal Republic of the Comoros, Qatar, Cote d’Ivoire, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Maldives, Mali, Malaysia, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria and Yemen.

That's pretty much game over for the chance to do anything at all against Saudi Arabia as it would lead to a world war. It's easy to dismiss some of the coalition members but the ones in bold are enough to see the mayhem it would lead to. One should also never forget that Israel has a border with Syria.

I must admit I'm impressed they managed to set this defensive alliance up -that's what it is of course. Talk about herding cats. Compared to these the EU is a perfect homogeneity.

Also, such a cascade of alliances left, right and center sets a stage very similar to the situation prior to World War I. One wrong move and everyone will be involved in a real war. Which the whole terror thing still isn't. Good thing Obama is the current president of the USA. If it were Bush jr. or -the horror- Trump, well,....
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Old Dec 15th 2015, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
It looks like Saudi Arabia countered any future criticism and/or intervention by setting up a 'coalition against terrorism' which joins Jordan, the UAE, Pakistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Benin, Turkey, Chad, Togo, Tunisia, Djibouti, Senegal, Sudan, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Gabon, Guinea, the partially-recognized state of Palestine, the Islamic Federal Republic of the Comoros, Qatar, Cote d’Ivoire, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Maldives, Mali, Malaysia, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria and Yemen.

That's pretty much game over for the chance to do anything at all against Saudi Arabia as it would lead to a world war. It's easy to dismiss some of the coalition members but the ones in bold are enough to see the mayhem it would lead to. One should also never forget that Israel has a border with Syria.

I must admit I'm impressed they managed to set this defensive alliance up -that's what it is of course. Talk about herding cats. Compared to these the EU is a perfect homogeneity.

Also, such a cascade of alliances left, right and center sets a stage very similar to the situation prior to World War I. One wrong move and everyone will be involved in a real war. Which the whole terror thing still isn't. Good thing Obama is the current president of the USA. If it were Bush jr. or -the horror- Trump, well,....
Actually, that's a positive development for two reasons:

1) An Arab coalition to fight radical Islam and terrorism is a good thing in itself. Not likely to actually do anything, but politically and symbolically, that's a whole lot more than the Arab states have ever done on the issue.

2) It shows that Saudi was feeling a lot of political pressure and criticism that needed to be addressed. I'm not the only one pointing a big guilty finger at Saudi Arabia right now. The ground is shifting under Saudi's feet and they are obviously getting scared of where western opinion is clearly heading.
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Old Dec 15th 2015, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

Our long relationship with the Saudis is, I think, one of the larger mistakes in long term foreign policy.
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Old Dec 16th 2015, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Actually, that's a positive development for two reasons:

1) An Arab coalition to fight radical Islam and terrorism is a good thing in itself. Not likely to actually do anything, but politically and symbolically, that's a whole lot more than the Arab states have ever done on the issue.

2) It shows that Saudi was feeling a lot of political pressure and criticism that needed to be addressed. I'm not the only one pointing a big guilty finger at Saudi Arabia right now. The ground is shifting under Saudi's feet and they are obviously getting scared of where western opinion is clearly heading.
You don't seriously think this alliance will actually do something about terrorism, do you? That's just the rationale for our media. The reason this amalgam of nations got into said alliance is that the ordinary Muslims are far more afraid of us than we are of them. It's a pre-emptive, defensive alliance against further 'regime change' in their countries by us.
Not even all of NATO in combination with Russia can now afford to attack any of these nations. They'd probably still win eventually but the price would be extremely high. Pakistan has nukes after all and so does Israel which inevitably would get involved too.
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Old Dec 16th 2015, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
You don't seriously think this alliance will actually do something about terrorism, do you? That's just the rationale for our media. The reason this amalgam of nations got into said alliance is that the ordinary Muslims are far more afraid of us than we are of them. It's a pre-emptive, defensive alliance against further 'regime change' in their countries by us.
Does not my point #1 state that the Saudi alliance is "not likely to actually do anything"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
Not even all of NATO in combination with Russia can now afford to attack any of these nations. They'd probably still win eventually but the price would be extremely high. Pakistan has nukes after all and so does Israel which inevitably would get involved too.
I think you are over-thinking this. Anyway, the point is not to launch WW3 in the Middle East, but to put heavy pressure on Saudi. This alliance is evidence that pressure is working.

But my principal point still stands - any military operation in the Middle East that isn't directed at regime change in Saudi is a waste of time. Saudi is the source and principal actor in radicalizing Islam and financing terrorism. Until we do regime change in Saudi, Arab Islamic radicalism and Arab Islamic terrorism is going to be a continual fact of life.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 08:44 AM
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Default Re: Saudi = ISIS

If Ron Paul has his way, "It should be known that no longer will the US guarantee the security of the Saudi kingdom."
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/04/...udi-arabia-us/
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