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Environment Climate Change, Pollution, Endangered Species, Industrial Agriculture, Degrading Habitats & Renewable Energy.

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  #71  
Old May 13th 2011, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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Originally Posted by andrewl View Post
Why does it matter if you don't understand why i think life has value and why i want to preserve the biosphere? These sorts of questions seem incredibly unimportant.

Andrew
Understanding is the basis of relationships.

Without relationships, the environment is meaningless.
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  #72  
Old May 13th 2011, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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Understanding is the basis of relationships.

Without relationships, the environment is meaningless.
I want people to understand the environment instead of destroying it.

Without the environment, relationships are worse than meaningless, they are impossible.

Andrew
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  #73  
Old May 13th 2011, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

Destroying the environment depends on what you believe to be its proper structure though.

Even if you're a functionalist, you have to believe in the proper structure of consequences.

The thing about relationships is they're not premised on aesthetics. Aesthetics are stimulus, and stimulus comes from subjects and objects alike. For example, for all you know, I could be an algorithm.

Even if you met me in real life, I could be a robot, or I could be say an organic, metabolic robot that's predetermined by genetics, neurology, and hormones instead of transitors, capacitors, and resistors.

You need something more than stimulus for a relationship, but stimulus is all the environment provides.
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  #74  
Old May 13th 2011, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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You need something more than stimulus for a relationship, but stimulus is all the environment provides.
Then where does my dinner come from?

Aesthetics doesn't feed me.
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  #75  
Old May 13th 2011, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
Destroying the environment depends on what you believe to be its proper structure though.

Even if you're a functionalist, you have to believe in the proper structure of consequences.

The thing about relationships is they're not premised on aesthetics. Aesthetics are stimulus, and stimulus comes from subjects and objects alike. For example, for all you know, I could be an algorithm.

Even if you met me in real life, I could be a robot, or I could be say an organic, metabolic robot that's predetermined by genetics, neurology, and hormones instead of transitors, capacitors, and resistors.

You need something more than stimulus for a relationship, but stimulus is all the environment provides.

The environment provides life, not stimulus.

Andrew
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  #76  
Old May 13th 2011, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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Then where does my dinner come from?

Aesthetics doesn't feed me.
Aesthetics is not just about how things look. It's also about how things smell, taste, feel, and hear.

Eating your dinner is important to you because it lets you feel full and avoid the anguish of an empty stomach. However, that doesn't entitle you to an ecosystem where other beings are obligated to fit a niche in order to ensure your nourishment. It also doesn't entitle you to a niche remaining undisturbed. In fact, ecosystems disturb niches all the time in evolution and natural disasters.

For example, what would be the difference between a nuclear bomb and the asteroid we believe killed the dinosaurs? What makes mankind so despicable that we deserve to be discriminated against?

Last edited by Daktoria; May 13th 2011 at 10:28 PM.
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  #77  
Old May 13th 2011, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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The environment provides life, not stimulus.

Andrew
I don't think this is provable because any evidence you provide will inherently qualify as stimulus.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but the fact-value distinction is very important when it comes to the meaning (not purpose) of life. It's what allows us to treat life differently from unliving nature.

Some ideas you might want to read about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism

Last edited by Daktoria; May 13th 2011 at 10:32 PM.
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  #78  
Old May 14th 2011, 08:29 AM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
Aesthetics is not just about how things look. It's also about how things smell, taste, feel, and hear.

Eating your dinner is important to you because it lets you feel full and avoid the anguish of an empty stomach. However, that doesn't entitle you to an ecosystem where other beings are obligated to fit a niche in order to ensure your nourishment. It also doesn't entitle you to a niche remaining undisturbed. In fact, ecosystems disturb niches all the time in evolution and natural disasters.

For example, what would be the difference between a nuclear bomb and the asteroid we believe killed the dinosaurs? What makes mankind so despicable that we deserve to be discriminated against?
Nice attempt at a dodge.

You said the environment produces nothing but stimulus.

I countered that by saying the environment, at the very least, produces my dinner.

Ergo, your assertion that the environment produces nothing is hogwash.
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  #79  
Old May 14th 2011, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

It's impossible to prove the difference because in order to believe the environment nourishes you, you have to sense stimulus. At least:

1) There's pain from going hungry.
2) Your stomach feels full.
3) Nourishment allows you to sense more stimulus within the environment. For example, if you were in a comatose or vegetable state and hooked up to an IV drip, you wouldn't know that you're still in, or supported by, the environment.

Last edited by Daktoria; May 14th 2011 at 09:14 AM.
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  #80  
Old May 14th 2011, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Enviropessimism

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It's impossible to prove the difference because in order to believe the environment nourishes you, you have to sense stimulus.
If I have no dinner, I die.

On that basis, I have a direct relationship with the environment that produces my dinner. Not to mention oxygen molecules and H2O.
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