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  #51  
Old Aug 11th 2015, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

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Tentative Greek Debt Accord Might Do Little to Revive Economy

ATHENS — The Greek government on Tuesday appeared to be on the verge of clinching a deal for a new international bailout worth as much as $95 billion in exchange for accepting harsh austerity terms and making sweeping changes to the way the country does business.

European officials on Tuesday cautioned that approval of the accord was far from certain. And Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in a phone call that Berlin was skeptical about the deal, saying talks should continue “for a few weeks,” according to a Greek government official.

...

The deal in its current form offers no relief on Greece’s staggering debt, which now exceeds €315 billion, or $345 billion, despite insistence by International Monetary Fund and Greek officials that an easing of that burden be part of any package. And the uncertainties surrounding months of bailout negotiations have further damaged the Greek economy, potentially making an eventual recovery more difficult than ever.

...

Any deal also needs approval from other European countries, in some cases requiring a vote by national parliaments, most notably that of Germany. The deadline is Aug. 20, when Greece needs help to make a crucial €3.2 billion payment to the European Central Bank.
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As the last two paragraphs quoted make clear, the goal of the EU is to bailout European banks, not Greece. Greek taxpayers on the hook for this additional bailout of the European banks.

Indeed, if Greece is suffereing from a monsterously large debt they can't afford to pay for, I fail to understand how $95 billion in additional debt is going to help anyone except the bankers who will cream off most of it - yet again being financially rewarded for making idiot-stupid investments in Greek sovereign debt. I'll bet the bankers who made these money-losing deals in the first place will pay themselves some big bonuses with the bailout money. That does seem to be the actual game here.
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  #52  
Old Aug 16th 2015, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Here is the most comprehensive and detailed survey of the Greek situation/crisis that I've ever read.

Seven Myths about the Greek Debt Crisis

Very interesting reading!

Basically, everything I've been saying appears to be confirmed. The key problem is the EU lacking an actual political union and the admission that the Greek problem is inevitable and will occur again due to the economic and political structure of the EU. Secondly, the whole issue is fraught with lies laid upon lies in order to support/justify the massive bailout of the European private sector banks with EU money and stick the bill to the Greek taxpayers, which has had the effect of making the whole debt crisis many times worse. And lastly, the article argues for the position I took at the beginning of the crisis - that Greek default and/or exit from the Eurozone back in 2010 or 2012 would have been the 'least bad' option for Greece.
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  #53  
Old Aug 25th 2015, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

"In the long run we are all dead."- Abstract on Monetary Reform (1923) Ch. 3
"In truth, the gold standard is a barbarous relic."- Monetary Reform (1924) p.172
--Lord John Maynard 1st Baron Keynes of Tilton

Nixon declared himself to be a Keynesian in 1971 and took the US (and thus the world) off what remained of the gold/silver standard ( Remember when our silver coins went out of circulation?).

Now, 44 years later, Keynes, Nixon, and their generations are dead, and this is already the long run for Detroit, Greece, and Puerto Rico, and the US is $18 trillion in debt.

Keynes was good-hearted, benevolent, and very much anti-war, but Henry Hazlitt ( The Conquest of Poverty), who grew up in near poverty, his father dying when Hazlitt was an infant, and he had to leave school to take care of his mother when her second husband died; and Friedrich von Hayek (The Road to Serfdom), among other economists of the Austrian School, were much better critical thinkers.
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  #54  
Old Aug 25th 2015, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
"In the long run we are all dead."- Abstract on Monetary Reform (1923) Ch. 3
"In truth, the gold standard is a barbarous relic."- Monetary Reform (1924) p.172
--Lord John Maynard 1st Baron Keynes of Tilton

Nixon declared himself to be a Keynesian in 1971 and took the US (and thus the world) off what remained of the gold/silver standard ( Remember when our silver coins went out of circulation?).
Regardless of what Nixon said, he most certainly wasn't a Keynesian in any way, nor did he ever support any public policy that could be rationally described as 'Keynesian'. He was just a good old fashioned state capitalist (giving taxpayer money away to your political supporters isn't Keynesian theory).

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Now, 44 years later, Keynes, Nixon, and their generations are dead, and this is already the long run for Detroit, Greece, and Puerto Rico, and the US is $18 trillion in debt.
And Keynesian theory is still highly functional and respected by most actual economists (who are not American rightwingers or Austrian fascists).

That being said, I'm not aware of any actual examples of Keynesian theory being actually applied except by Canada in the 1990's period under Liberal Paul Martin (when it worked exactly as designed).

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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Keynes was good-hearted, benevolent, and very much anti-war, but Henry Hazlitt ( The Conquest of Poverty), who grew up in near poverty, his father dying when Hazlitt was an infant, and he had to leave school to take care of his mother when her second husband died; and Friedrich von Hayek (The Road to Serfdom), among other economists of the Austrian School, were much better critical thinkers.
Of course Friedrich von Hayek and the Austrian school are much better critical thinkers, but only if fascism is what you are looking for because that's what their theory adds up to.

Btw, Keynes' predictions still look good. In the long run, we are indeed all dead. And the gold standard really is a barbarous relic of the past (much like slavery, which was also defended to the death and then some more).

Few things in this world could cause greater poverty and misery for more millions of people than re-adopting the gold standard. I shudder at the thought of the world-level great depression that would bring (but that's the goal that people who favor this policy tend to want).
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  #55  
Old Sep 10th 2015, 07:49 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

The difference between private and public debt:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/09/...ernments-debt/
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  #56  
Old Sep 20th 2015, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

Erm, sorry, Alexis, but it is no longer a 'victory of the people'. 'The people' said fuck you to all parties as 44% stayed home while voting is mandatory.

Le sigh, except that Golden Dawn didn't profit.
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  #57  
Old Sep 21st 2015, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

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Erm, sorry, Alexis, but it is no longer a 'victory of the people'. 'The people' said fuck you to all parties as 44% stayed home while voting is mandatory.

Le sigh, except that Golden Dawn didn't profit.
Syriza dropped a big chunk of support and quite a few seats from the last electon six months ago (and most of their party platform too!).

As I noted above, it appears that the Greek people want to stay with the Euro even though that really is the ultimate source of Greece's debt/trade/financial problem. PM Tsipras has vowed once again that is number one goal is to keep Greece in the Euro. And that means endless pain and poverty for Greece.

Greece should never have been permitted to enter the Euro currency agreement, and whoever let them in holds full blame for this fiasco. Greece is Greece and will always be Greece - meaning it is a basket-case economy that can never be competitive within the Euro. Which means, right now is as good as it will get for Greece - the future is all downhill from here.

I do believe that the reason the Greeks insist on staying in the Euro is because the EU keeps giving Greece credit and as long as Greece stays in the Euro, the EU will be forced to bailout Greece over and over again. I suppose that's the Greek plan. Like most debtor nations, Greece has never paid down their debts ever - they just roll over the debt and keep adding to it, and struggle just to pay the interest on the debt. And that's the real debt crisis in Greece - Greece is insolvent because they can't even pay interest on their debts (to the EU) without a loan from the EU. The idea of Greece ever paying off the principal seems laughable.
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  #58  
Old Oct 23rd 2015, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

What an incredibly dramatic reduction of coverage the situation of this thread has undergone.
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  #59  
Old Oct 26th 2015, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Why Greece must declare Bankruptcy

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What an incredibly dramatic reduction of coverage the situation of this thread has undergone.
It always gets quiet AFTER the latest round of bailout/loans to Greece or after an election in Greece. The issue has been doing this for some time now.

The topic tends to pick up in a couple of months when the next Greek debt crisis hits (i.e. when more bailout money is required).

I think the media is doing a lot of favors here. The more reporting on Greece there is, the worse everyone looks (including German/Greek politicians and bankers). Can't have that can we? That might make the issue look like something that is structural to the EU rather than the official media-approved meme that this issue is all about bad Greece.
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