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  #21  
Old Feb 12th 2014, 12:45 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
If complex aspects of personality such as homosexuality are genetic then they are emergent properties of the whole genome and not some simple minded on/off switch which your questions imply. Evolutionary pressure doesn't select on such complex aspects of the genome because there are far to many allele mutations involved to be statistically realistic. That is, unless the property has a blatant impact on general viability or the ability to reproduce. This is no the case with homosexuality.

In the other case, i.e. if homosexuality is not genetic then that still doesn't mean that it isn't innate. There isn't enough information in the human genome to describe all higher level aspects of human nature. Most of those are emergent properties of the brain which is not genetically described in detail in the genome.

There is thus not really an issue as there is not necessarily any link between evolution and homosexuality either way.
If psychology and the way people think is genetic then people would always tend to be like their parents. Gay people come from straight parents, and therefore they would be straight, according to your logic.
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  #22  
Old Feb 12th 2014, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
If complex aspects of personality such as homosexuality are genetic then they are emergent properties of the whole genome and not some simple minded on/off switch which your questions imply. Evolutionary pressure doesn't select on such complex aspects of the genome because there are far to many allele mutations involved to be statistically realistic. That is, unless the property has a blatant impact on general viability or the ability to reproduce. This is no the case with homosexuality.

In the other case, i.e. if homosexuality is not genetic then that still doesn't mean that it isn't innate. There isn't enough information in the human genome to describe all higher level aspects of human nature. Most of those are emergent properties of the brain which is not genetically described in detail in the genome.

There is thus not really an issue as there is not necessarily any link between evolution and homosexuality either way.
Exactly.
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  #23  
Old Feb 12th 2014, 05:57 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by NickKIELCEPoland View Post
Exactly.
You think you have made your point?
We are discussing whether it is predetermined or choice.
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  #24  
Old Feb 12th 2014, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
You think you have made your point?
We are discussing whether it is predetermined or choice.
It is not by choice. End of discussion.
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  #25  
Old Feb 12th 2014, 06:56 PM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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It is not by choice. End of discussion.
You have to give a reason for your argument (why it is not a choice), or else this is not a debate. And in this case it was useless for you to enter the discussion.
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  #26  
Old Feb 13th 2014, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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It is not by choice. End of discussion.
If you want to think it's by choice, then no one is stopping you. As far as I'm concerned, it's so obviously not by choice that it's not worth discussing. But as I said, no one is stopping you from thinking it's by choice. And no one is stopping you from expressing that belief either.
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Last edited by NickKIELCEPoland; Feb 13th 2014 at 12:09 AM.
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  #27  
Old Feb 13th 2014, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
You have to give a reason for your argument (why it is not a choice), or else this is not a debate. And in this case it was useless for you to enter the discussion.
No, my point was merely that the question of whether it is by choice has been so exhaustively debated to the end of demonstrating that it is not a conscious choice so far as to make any claims of it being a choice utterly irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by NickKIELCEPoland View Post
If you want to think it's by choice, then no one is stopping you. As far as I'm concerned, it's so obviously not by choice that it's not worth discussing. But as I said, no one is stopping you from thinking it's by choice.
Did you intend to quote my post?
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  #28  
Old Feb 13th 2014, 01:47 AM
shekib82 shekib82 is offline
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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No, my point was merely that the question of whether it is by choice has been so exhaustively debated to the end of demonstrating that it is not a conscious choice so far as to make any claims of it being a choice utterly irrelevant.



Did you intend to quote my post?
Listen man, that's the whole point. This issue has been whitewashed by western media. If I were to think of a reason in good faith, it would be because homosexuals have been ostracised and even persecuted for year. Indeed, it is common to only quote the bible when it comes to killing them.

But is ending a person's persecution based on a lie, a good thing? That is the point of my "Scientific" analysis. And Kid yourselves not, this is an analysis scientific. As you do not find something similar in those debates you are mentioning. But it is science in its purest form and it is not morally reprehensible to the atheist liberal conscience which both you and Nick follow. Neither is it me a christian.

So, first wouldn't just be better to say "Well, we do kinky stuff in bed with women, why should we jail people who do kinky stuff in bed with men?". That will end the persecution. But when it becomes a sexual preference, then all the so called civil rights aspects of it well vanish into thin air. The military aspect first and foremost, and then that whole "Right to Marry" thing.

This debate started of on a scientific basis. I assume (and with good reason) that since both of you cannot debate this on its scientific merits you are now trying to shush me. Which really is why these internet debates become stupid after some time. No one ever says: "Hey you are right". But, I like it this is why I keep coming. This is fun.

So go ahead come up with other stuff...
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  #29  
Old Feb 13th 2014, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
You think you have made your point?
We are discussing whether it is predetermined or choice.
Did you choose who to be attracted to?

I didn't. I have a thing for petite brunettes, but as best I can tell I had no hand in choosing that preference. In fact, pretty much all my experience with physical attraction demonstrates that it is something my consciousness is [often unwillingly] affected by, not something I consciously choose to create.

Why would I assume that the attraction experienced by gay men and lesbians is any different?

And really, if we can really just choose what sexual orientation we want, who in their right mind would ever choose one that invites so much social stigma and persecution?
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  #30  
Old Feb 13th 2014, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Homesexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by shekib82 View Post
This issue has been whitewashed by western media.
Any examples of this alleged 'whitewashing'?
Being a westerner, I think most westerners think to themselves;
"a) I don't choose who I'm attracted to, so probably neither do gay people
b) If they could choose, what possible motive could they have for choosing to be a group that is persecuted so many places all round the world, and by so many people,
"
and conclude that they haven't chosen.

But if you have examples of media articles which have hypnotised people, then please post them.
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