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Old Nov 15th 2016, 12:39 PM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Self-Hating Jew

I really liked Carey Wedler's "Dear Liberal Friends" video and tried to find out more about her on the web.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk8DDFE8v3I

One thing that I found out is that due to things she has published about Israel she has been labelled a "self-hating Jew" by some people.
http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08/...y-carey-elizab...

Then, I was just outside doing some mindless yard work and it occurred to me that since both my sets of grandparents were Christian and I view Christianity as ridiculous at best and an abomination at worst, that I must be a Self-Hating Christian!

I've long thought that the term self-hating Jew was pretty ignorant, but this revelation brought it home even more.
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Old Nov 16th 2016, 07:15 PM
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Then, I was just outside doing some mindless yard work and it occurred to me that since both my sets of grandparents were Christian and I view Christianity as ridiculous at best and an abomination at worst, that I must be a Self-Hating Christian!

I've long thought that the term self-hating Jew was pretty ignorant, but this revelation brought it home even more.
The difference is that even if you were raised/christened/baptized as a Christian, you can disavow it and become 'not-Christian' if you so choose.

With Jews, they don't permit that. They insist that one is born a Jew, so that any born Jew who doesn't toe the party-line is a 'self-hating-Jew' - because they cannot disavow their Judaism.

In other words, it is a just a word trap Jews use against other Jews to enforce unity with the party message.

The same doesn't work against atheists - if you call them 'self-hating Christians' they will just deny being a Christian.

Indeed, that's the one feature of Judaism that I've always found the most troubling and disturbing about Judaism - the way they conflate their religion and ethnicity into one. That seems obnoxious and totalitarian even by the standards of religion, per se, which isn't known for permitting any kind of human choice or agency.
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Old Nov 16th 2016, 11:18 PM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Indeed, that's the one feature of Judaism that I've always found the most troubling and disturbing about Judaism - the way they conflate their religion and ethnicity into one. That seems obnoxious and totalitarian even by the standards of religion, per se, which isn't known for permitting any kind of human choice or agency.
Since the advent of Israel, Mid-Eastern Jews can't help but conflate religion and nationality, and this makes it doubly difficult for Westerners of Jewish heritage who would embrace free-thinking. It seems like they must give up both their heritage and their religion.

But a lot of them do it, just as freethinking American inhabitants from Italy, Ireland, Afghanistan, etc., may still have warm spots in their hearts for the Old Country, but give up political ties.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Self-Hating Jew

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The difference is that even if you were raised/christened/baptized as a Christian, you can disavow it and become 'not-Christian' if you so choose.
Nope, at least not in Catholic countries. Lil'me, hardly renowned as a fundamentalist Christian across the Internet, is still registered and counted as a Christian for official purposes. Because baptized. There's no procedure either through the Church or the government to change that. And it has consequences such as the Church getting subsidies in my name and the percentage of religious people being hugely overestimated.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 07:14 PM
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Nope, at least not in Catholic countries. Lil'me, hardly renowned as a fundamentalist Christian across the Internet, is still registered and counted as a Christian for official purposes. Because baptized. There's no procedure either through the Church or the government to change that. And it has consequences such as the Church getting subsidies in my name and the percentage of religious people being hugely overestimated.
That's just a bullshit local bureaucratic rule that doesn't impinge upon the key philosophical point that one can disavow being a Christian, but one cannot disavow being a Jew. Btw, I had my (Anglican) baptism officially removed from the registry. All I had to do was request it. I did that like 25 years ago. But then again, Canadian Churches don't receive any tax revenues from the Government of Canada, so numbers on any baptism registry have no financial incentives.

Btw, I always felt sorry for Belgium being caught on the wrong side of the impressive Dutch war of independence against Spain - though the Belgians chose that position certainly.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 07:19 PM
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That's just a bullshit local bureaucratic rule that doesn't impinge upon the key philosophical point that one can disavow being a Christian, but one cannot disavow being a Jew. Btw, I had my (Anglican) baptism officially removed from the registry. All I had to do was request it. I did that like 25 years ago. But then again, Canadian Churches don't receive any tax revenues from the Government of Canada, so numbers on any baptism registry have no financial incentives.

Btw, I always felt sorry for Belgium being caught on the wrong side of the impressive Dutch war of independence against Spain - though the Belgians chose that position certainly.
If by local you mean the Vatican, then yes. There's no 'redemption' for Catholics.
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Old Nov 17th 2016, 07:24 PM
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If by local you mean the Vatican, then yes. There's no 'redemption' for Catholics.
No, I suspect it is Belgium specifically (or other specific Catholic countries) rather than ALL Catholic countries.

Quebec is and has always been overwhelmingly Catholic, but that rule doesn't exist in Quebec. Quebec Catholic Church receives no money from Canadian Government.

I suspect you might find variations on that rule where Churches receive subsidy money from the taxpayer, regardless if the church is Protestant or Catholic. Denmark, England and Sweden might be good places to look at since they all have officially state-sanctioned [protestant] Churches with ministers basically drawing a state salary.
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Old Nov 18th 2016, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Self-Hating Jew

Some things stick with you. On some deep level I still identify as Catholic even though I am most certainly not, due to one kind of major deal breaker.

Latin ethnicity is sort of tied to Catholicism, though certainly not to the extent that Judaism/Being Jewish is tied.
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Old Nov 18th 2016, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Self-Hating Jew

In Russia, there is a sort of distinction among Jews, because many Jews here are atheists, yet they still identify together as an ethnic group. Religion is Judaism or Iudaizm in Russian pronunciation, and its adherents are referred to as Iudei or Judeans. The ethnic group are referred to as Yevrei, Hebrews. Anyone whose family name ends in -ovich, -evich, -son, -berg, -burg, -sky, -er, etc, is considered Yevrei, on the Census and such. No matter if they are religious or not. It is frustrating for some, because not everyone WANTS to be seen as a Yevrei (it is not always a GOOD thing to be seen as here, lets put it that way... antisemitism is not a joke in Russia...); and you may have never been to a synagogue in your life and is, culturally, a vodka drinking, pork eating Russian as much as any ethnic Russkiy, yet if your name is, say, Farber, or Ginzburg, or Rabinovich, if you write Russkiy as your ethnicity on the Census, the Census worker may well actually cross that out and write in Yevrei instead. Like, "do not flatter yourself, no, you are NOT a Russian, you pathetic little zhid (not nice word for Jews)."

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Old Nov 18th 2016, 06:53 PM
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Some things stick with you. On some deep level I still identify as Catholic even though I am most certainly not, due to one kind of major deal breaker.

Latin ethnicity is sort of tied to Catholicism, though certainly not to the extent that Judaism/Being Jewish is tied.
I'm pointing at the distinction between actual rules and mere cultural norms.
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