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View Poll Results: Do you support net neutrality as a goal?
Yes - the net should remain neutral 13 86.67%
No - private companies can do whatever they like to make profits 1 6.67%
I don't know - this topic is very complicated 1 6.67%
I just like voting in polls 0 0%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 11:40 AM
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Daktoria Daktoria is offline
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Michael View Post
I hold that the greatest threat to intellectual property rights are large multinational corporations with big fat budgets to bribe governments with to permit their "claims" of perpetual intellectual property - particularly when this includes stealing from the public domain (see Disney).

Intellectual property rights exist to inspire/reward creativity. They ought not to be considered as tools to maintain corporate monopolies (as they they so often are explicitly used for).
I don't see where the foundation for this positive right of inspiring creativity comes from (nor do I see how government intervention can inspire creativity beyond the restrictions it previously shackled upon it). Sure, monopolies can hinder property right enforcement through manipulation of the legal system, but entrepreneurs innovate because they want their worlds to be structured a certain way, not so they can be enslaved to the masses (which is why charity is important, yada yada yada for the umpteenth time).
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  #12  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
Why are your own choices and cultures important though when they're going to be subverted under the tide of the mob, a mob that celebrates and panics over gluttony?
My choices and preferences of culture have been known to change.
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  #13  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

That's... not really what I'm asking about. Maybe choices and preferences change, maybe they don't, but why do they matter when their supposed value comes from society's appreciation despite how society is an impulsive beast that reacts to unpredictable trends?
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  #14  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

I believe that the internet should remain neutral.

Suppose some multi-faceted organization that is a service provider, but also has its hands in other stuff. Suppose that corporation is engaged in perpetrating human rights abuses.

I don't want to suddenly have access to news articles about that shut off.

I know it's a tenuous hypothetical, but I think it's a relevant point.
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  #15  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

The transmission of information is the legacy of being human. While this transmission has traditionally been done in the form of oral histories, the written word, be it as typeset and lithographs on paper or pixels on a screen, is a relatively newer thing (c. 6000 y.a.) but no less important surely. Images and symbols in the form of art go back about 30,000 years. The tricky thing here is that the very knowledge of writing was hoarded as an exclusive right of royalty and their charges. The very instruments used to produce text (clay tablets and a writing wedge) were reserved for certain classes of people. Even today paper and pencils are not objects of everyday use for large parts of the world. I see the internet as an extension of the written word AND as an extension of artforms that have long been part of human history.

This is a thin edge but I believe that access to the written word and images and symbols is part of being human. If they occur in the form of internet images then the argument is no different.
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  #16  
Old Sep 21st 2009, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Greendruid View Post
The transmission of information is the legacy of being human. While this transmission has traditionally been done in the form of oral histories, the written word, be it as typeset and lithographs on paper or pixels on a screen, is a relatively newer thing (c. 6000 y.a.) but no less important surely. Images and symbols in the form of art go back about 30,000 years. The tricky thing here is that the very knowledge of writing was hoarded as an exclusive right of royalty and their charges. The very instruments used to produce text (clay tablets and a writing wedge) were reserved for certain classes of people. Even today paper and pencils are not objects of everyday use for large parts of the world. I see the internet as an extension of the written word AND as an extension of artforms that have long been part of human history.

This is a thin edge but I believe that access to the written word and images and symbols is part of being human. If they occur in the form of internet images then the argument is no different.
The existence of the English language itself is a testament to the failure of the attempt to keep latin as the official language of the law (as a way of keeping elite control).

Humans can be crafty and resourceful - we don't always do what our elites order us to do.
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  #17  
Old Sep 22nd 2009, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

I remember when CATV became widely available in the early 80s. I just couldn't wrap my head around paying for television. Moreover, I didn't understand why the FCC would be so strict with broadcast television yet CATV could provide broadcasting that was seemed totally outside the censors of the FCC. I had a hunch money was somehow involved somewhere. Of course, CATV still enjoys much less censorship than broadcast television, but advertising is all over CATV.

And now we have large corporations with oodles of cash wanting to muscle in to the internet marketplace. Every fiber of my being screams "NO!" I do not want the internet to go the same route as CATV with corporations and advertisers dictating what I can and cannot view, or me having to pay a hefty fee to see what I do want to see at a speed worth watching.

Sadly, and as always, I think money will win out in the end.
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  #18  
Old Sep 22nd 2009, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

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Sadly, and as always, I think money will win out in the end.
I think you're right. I think the way these bastards will angle it will weaken the vitality of the internet, too. Some providers have been testing "volume-based billing," charging by the MB. Once they get this system up and running, they'll each set up they're own YouTube that is free to watch and filled to the brim with advertisements and we'll see the death sentence of the neutral net.
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  #19  
Old Sep 22nd 2009, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

To be blunt, I'm really disappointed with the lack of confidence portrayed regarding consumer sovereignty in this thread so far, and the idea of using government to defend laziness is an extreme abuse of legal authority under liberal precepts.

I mean frankly, if the people are willing to go to these lengths, then I don't see any reason why businesses shouldn't preemptively flood the internet with every kind of crap imaginable since the people are effectively declaring war on firms under the threat of expropriation....

...either that or just not pay taxes and endorse every sort of criminal sabotage of the internet possible so consumers get stuck in one security dilemma after the next. Sure the people could engage in some sort of mob justice to retaliate, but that spoils all of the information demanded to be made available anyway which, in the process, makes net neutrality a worthless cause since the only way to retain self-control is to conform to popular interests.

There's nothing liberal about that at all.

Last edited by Daktoria; Sep 22nd 2009 at 09:55 AM.
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  #20  
Old Sep 22nd 2009, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
To be blunt, I'm really disappointed with the lack of confidence portrayed regarding consumer sovereignty in this thread so far, and the idea of using government to defend laziness is an extreme abuse of legal authority under liberal precepts.

I mean frankly, if the people are willing to go to these lengths, then I don't see any reason why businesses shouldn't preemptively flood the internet with every kind of crap imaginable since the people are effectively declaring war on firms under the threat of expropriation....

...either that or just not pay taxes and endorse every sort of criminal sabotage of the internet possible so consumers get stuck in one security dilemma after the next. Sure the people could engage in some sort of mob justice to retaliate, but that spoils all of the information demanded to be made available anyway which, in the process, makes net neutrality a worthless cause since the only way to retain self-control is to conform to popular interests.

There's nothing liberal about that at all.
You do realize that the internet was created by government money right? That it was entirely built as a public utility (originally as a private playpen for the US military, then for international university research).

The private web-market players are the late arrivals to the internet (beginning in 1994).

Sounds to me like you are assuming the internet is some vast private resource owned by private companies. Private companies only control the individual point of access.

Thus, the issue of net neutrality is whether or not multinational private corporations are going to be able to takeover this public resource and align its operation to fit their profit models. Nothing new here - US has a long history of giving public resources over to private profit (radio and tv spectrum for example).
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