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Old Sep 22nd 2015, 06:57 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Libertarian Trashes Christianity

If ever anything needed a little constructive criticism:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/09/...nt-christians/

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Old Sep 22nd 2015, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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If ever anything needed a little constructive criticism:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/09/...nt-christians/

Libertarianism or Christianity? They both seem to share quite a bit in common.

They both appear to be based entirely upon faith - that is to say, they exist in a world where facts don't matter. Libertarianism, like Christianity, means whatever you want it to mean at any given moment, by any given believer, and thus, can never be proven wrong and can never fail.
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Old Sep 23rd 2015, 06:40 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

, and m
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Libertarianism or Christianity? They both seem to share quite a bit in common.

They both appear to be based entirely upon faith - that is to say, they exist in a world where facts don't matter. Libertarianism, like Christianity, means whatever you want it to mean at any given moment, by any given believer, and thus, can never be proven wrong and can never fail.
The word "libertarian" has been hijacked by conservative Tea Party types, and even warmongering Sean Hannity has called himself a libertarian at times. I like the label "individualist" or "classical liberal" of the Adam Smith kind with tolerance to both free enterprise and issues like gay marriage.

Imho socialism is faith-based, where believers pray that politicians will turn water into wine and multiply loaves and fishes.
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Old Sep 23rd 2015, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

In the end, all ideologies are faith based.
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Old Sep 23rd 2015, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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, and m

The word "libertarian" has been hijacked by conservative Tea Party types, and even warmongering Sean Hannity has called himself a libertarian at times. I like the label "individualist" or "classical liberal" of the Adam Smith kind with tolerance to both free enterprise and issues like gay marriage.
Yes, but the hijacking of the label "libertarian" in the USA happened long before the tea party came along. I'd say that goes back several decades at least - probably during the Reagan era. Libertarian warmongers give the game away.

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Imho socialism is faith-based, where believers pray that politicians will turn water into wine and multiply loaves and fishes.
I believe that Non Sequitur nailed this one - all ideologies are entirely faith-based.
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Old Sep 24th 2015, 07:46 AM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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I believe that Non Sequitur nailed this one - all ideologies are entirely faith-based.
I disagree with you if you think that the simple laws of supply and demand constitute an ideology.

For example, the belief that increasing abundance of something while demand remains the same, will drive down the price of that thing. I don't think that that is faith-based, but a scientifically demonstrable fact.

Socialism, on the other hand, in ignoring human nature and the laws of supply and demand, leads to such things as the demise of the Workers Paradise Soviet Union and the economic difficulties in Greece and Detroit.

Socialism relies on religion-like dogma which has been preached to several generations of Americans in public school catechism,

It's faith-based fundamentalism portrays Uncle Sam/Big Brother as the one true, benevolent, God, and it's believers pray that ordained politicians will turn their water into wine, and multiply their fishes and loaves.

And it's popular. Bernie Sanders might well beat anyone the Republicans put up. (But, even though I think that socialism is a disastrous economic system, I would prefer Sanders to anyone the Republicans put up except maybe Kasich. I don't know enough about Kasich.)
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Old Sep 24th 2015, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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I disagree with you if you think that the simple laws of supply and demand constitute an ideology.

For example, the belief that increasing abundance of something while demand remains the same, will drive down the price of that thing. I don't think that that is faith-based, but a scientifically demonstrable fact.
True enough, but the libertarian belief that the market can solve almost any problem is nothing short of a faith statement.
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Old Sep 24th 2015, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I disagree with you if you think that the simple laws of supply and demand constitute an ideology.

For example, the belief that increasing abundance of something while demand remains the same, will drive down the price of that thing. I don't think that that is faith-based, but a scientifically demonstrable fact.
Perhaps, but I think there are two important distinctions to make here:

1) Libertarianism, even in its simplest form, is not "law of supply and demand." Economic "laws," in and of themselves, offer no goals for society, no sense of priorities, no guiding principles. They simply describe how certain systems tend to behave given a specific set of starting conditions. The same is true of all the sciences. Libertarianism, however, goes further. Offering, among other things, an ideal vision of society to pursued and a pathway toward that ideal. In so doing it separates itself from mere economic laws and becomes ideological.

2) The "law of supply and demand" is "scientifically demonstrable" only in the loosest sense of the words. It accurately predicts how people tend to behave in many circumstances, but its applicability to high dependent on the people involved. Most glaringly, it presumes that the people involved are rational actors seeking to maximize profits. This is not always the case.

E.G. To pull from my own field of knowledge, French traders in early North America presumed that, when they began offering more trade goods for certain mammal pelts (i.e. increase in demand --> increase in price) Native Americans would respond by hunting more animals (i.e. increase in price --> increase in supply). That isn't what happened. Instead, many Native American groups began hunting fewer animals (increase in price --> decrease in supply). The hunters were not, as it turned out, trying to maximize profits but only trying to maintain a certain lifestyle. Higher prices meant they were able to do so with less hunting.

There are also examples in English history of the "moral economy," where prices were determined by cultural beliefs about intrinsic value and social obligation. In such circumstances, prices might well remain fixed even when supplies rose.

All this to say, the Law of Supply and Demand presumes certain social and cultural conditions. And that's fine. Things become more complicated, however, and enter the realm of ideology when one starts declaring what social/cultural conditions should exist or describing some as "natural" and others as "aberrations."

There's nothing inherently wrong with ideologies, of course (in fact I'm not sure it would actually be logically possible to judge them from the outside).
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Old Sep 24th 2015, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

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In the end, all ideologies are faith based.
That makes me wonder what the word faith actually means in American English. For instance, it would make no sense whatsoever to say that e.g. communism is Glaube-(German), geloof-(Dutch) or foi-(French) based. In fact, it would be hilarious and a contradiction in terms. I have to specify American English here because in English the word faith is not used either in this apparently very broad sense. So what is the definition of the word so that it can be meaningfully applied in the sense of your statement?

Edit: wouldn't 'conviction' be a much better word in this specific context?
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Old Sep 24th 2015, 12:11 PM
Tom Palven Tom Palven is offline
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Default Re: Libertarian Trashes Christianity

I generally agree with dilettante in regard to "libertarianism." It is a mixed bag, especially when war-mongers like Sean Hannity occasionally refer to themselves as libertarians.

But, I think that economic side of today's "libertarians," which agrees with classical liberal Adam Smith's view that free markets are beneficial overall (Although not to those who would have government grants or protectionist government trade barriers.), is scientifically sound.

Btw, it's said that Adam Smith regarded his benevolent work, The Theory of Moral Sentiments] as a more important book than The Wealth of Nations.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I think that in the long run socialism fails for economic reasons because it ignores the mathematically scientific laws of supply and demand, probably among other things such as misjudging general human nature.
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