Post-Secondary Education

[Michael]

Are Too Many Students Going to College?

With student debt rising and more of those enrolled failing to graduate in four years, there is a growing sentiment that college may not be the best option for all students. At the same time, President Obama has called on every American to receive at least one year of higher education or vocational training. Behind the rhetoric lies disagreement over a series of issues: which students are most likely to succeed in college; what kind of college they should attend; whether the individual or society benefits more from postsecondary education; and whether college is worth the high cost and likely long-term debt. The Chronicle Review asked higher-education experts to weigh in.

Source (http://chronicle.com/article/Are-Too-Many-Students-Going-to/49039/)

This is a very interesting article to read since it consists of a half dozen 'experts' offering their opinions on each of these questions in turn. Quite a range of opinion there.

I think the topic is an important and complex one. I certainly agree that the vast majority of people are not suited to advanced college education (the article mentions 10-15% of the population is). And indeed, as anyone who has graduated from a 'quality' institution can attest - the vast majority of one's fellow students are there simply because they come from upper middle class families and college naturally follows after high school for that set (regardless of abilities or interests - neither of which is usually present).

I don't think there is any doubt that the USA (along with most other western countries) produce way too many BA's and nowhere near enough plumbers and electricians.

And it is a simple fact of life that those without any post-secondary education are pretty much doomed to minimum wage/labor jobs for life. The days of GM (and other large manufacturers) paying $30-60 per hour for unskilled labor are long gone and will never come back.

The question is, what can we do about all this? What advice should we give high school students about their own future? How should public policy be structured for maximum (or optimal) advantage for the largest number of citizens?

[Zarquon]

A fairer deal for able students in terms of tuition and debt, by perhaps getting private banks out of the way, and 'able' defined as consistent high-school performance of 2.5 GPA or higher+standardised test scores; and more funding and expansion of vocational schools and community colleges for those so inclined.

Some states of Germany practice segregation of students into vocational and college-bound at around 6th grade or lower, and I think that's unfair.
It should be done after 8th grade, so that those who need vocational training can get 4 yrs of that + internships during the summer , and those able and willing to go to college, put in appropriate programs which should include critical thinking skills and creative writing, as far too many students are lacking in that, and by the time they reach college, its usually too late, and majority of colleges don't even know what "critical thinking" constitutes.
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Personally, I wish everyone was able to make use of a college education, and was thus, enlightened, from insularity and incuriosity, but that's just wishful-thinking.

[Margot]

I go to a small, no-name university in my home town. I wound up here because I am poor, and also because my post-op Ma seemed like a person who needed a little looking after (goddamned brain surgery is a goddamned drag. Damnit).

The school I go to is a school full of daddy’s little angel’s who couldn’t get in anywhere else, but who need to get a degree. They zip around in their BMWs, collecting DUI’s like their going to throw a ticker-tape parade with them when they graduate. Daddy foots the bill, and his sweet son or daughter destroys his or her liver and gets a business degree. YAY! I’m taking 21 credits a semester in order to escape this hellhole. In six months I’ll have my BA. It will have taken me two and a half years.

I think Zarquon is right- critical thinking is key. Make school about learning and, more importantly, learning how to learn. My sister and I have a phrase used when we’re criticizing bad literature or movies: “cut the hookers.” It means that there are too many distracting secondary characters. Kill them. I feel the same about school- cut the hookers. School isn’t for sports, or clubs, it is for academics. Do that other shit on your own time, and with your own money. That way, when school is about school from day one kids who trot off to college know exactly what they should be getting out of it. They’ll give a shit.

I think there should also be emphasis on state-run vocational schools. You, with your finger in your nose, there’s a place for you, too. And way higher standards for any college. In short: segregate that shit. Make college a goal, not an expectation. When I was in high school I didn’t go to my graduation. I didn’t get it. You’re proud of yourself for doing this? The bare minimum? WTF? Graduating high school ought to be just that- an expectation. Moving on to college, however, should be something to be proud of.

We’re structured stupidly. We teach to the lowest common denominator. Academic achievement is valued the exact same as athleticism, or money (or art). Only, money and athletes and art don’t cure cancer, do they? People should be proud to be smart, strive to be clever, value intelligence more than it is currently valued.


But yeah, /rant. That was enough high-minded despotism for the day.

[Donkey]

Given what schlock high school is these days, I think anybody will benefit from a little college, even they end up being a machinist. Unfortunately it's so often prohibitive.

[Margot]

Given what schlock high school is these days, I think anybody will benefit from a little college, even they end up being a machinist. Unfortunately it's so often prohibitive.

What? High school, college, or mechanics?

[The Drunk Girl]

There are a few factors, in my opinion, that contribute to all these kids going to college.

1. From the time students hit school, the word and the idea of college is consistently thrown around. What do you want to be when you grow up?...If you don't do good in high school, how do you expect to do well in college? Everyone needs to take these standardized tests. It becomes something that is expected of every young adult, and it almost seems like one is shunned for not going.

2. Everyone wants to be rich and have the finer things in life. And, the way it seems (or is taught) to reach this goal is to go to college and have a degree. People become scared or lack the confidence to the idea of being successful without having that degree. This has drifted over into the workforce and the employers who are looking for employees.

My mother, who worked for a non-profit for almost 20 years, program was cut due to funding. She had worked her way up the ladder and had become manager over a few programs. She doesn't have a degree, but is very knowledgeable in her job and what she does. When she went to find other jobs that she was more than qualified for, she couldn't because she didn't possess a piece of paper saying she graduated from a college or university.

3. Dumb twats, like Margot superbly explained, should go and fuck themselves. They are a waste of my time and the air that I breathe. Going to college to them is not for education, but merely to be used as an accessory to their cute little dress or designer jeans. They can go, look "pretty", join that sorority or fraternity, and party their spoiled little asses off. They're not in college to better themselves academically, but for their status.

[dilettante]

I'd recommend college for (almost) everyone. Even if they won't ever use the degree professionally, college generally expands people's experiences of the world, shows them different ways of thinking, introduces them to a wider array of people, and lets them experience brilliant and beautiful things (literature, for instance) that they might never have gotten around to otherwise. In my experience, HS students generally live in very small mental worlds when they graduate, though most of them aren't aware of it. Even a couple years in community college can help with that. To put it another way, even if you end up going right into the workforce or off to a technical school, I think just about everyone would benefit from taking the gen-ed college courses.

College can also be a nice buffer between living at home with parents and living completely on your own; it gives you some degree of independence but there are usually still people there to notice and help if you really crash and burn. I was an RA for a couple years and saw a lot of kids who really benefited from having a place to get their feet under them before they were completely on their own. That said, I'd advise against going to college while living at home; move at least a few hours away.

As for expense, I think that state should offer help to those who want to be there, and many do. Georgia, where I grew up, pays tuition to state schools for any resident who keeps a 3.0 GPA (which even the not-so-bright can manage in a community college if they're willing to work at it). Throw in a part-time or summer job, and the cost isn't prohibitive, even if you can't get a scholarship.

As far as public policy goes, I'd rather the state focus on keeping kids who demonstrate a strong desire to be in college funded than worry about aptitude, intelligence or vocational potential; colleges will sort that crew out on their own with grades, degree requirements and scholarship.

[Margot]

As far as public policy goes, I'd rather the state focus on keeping kids who demonstrate a strong desire to be in college funded than worry about aptitude, intelligence or vocational potential; colleges will sort that crew out on their own with grades, degree requirements and scholarship.

Then how do you make kids desire to go to college instead of going because they're expected to? And how can you tell the difference between the two?

[Margot]

3. Dumb twats, like Margot superbly explained, should go and fuck themselves. They are a waste of my time and the air that I breathe. Going to college to them is not for education, but merely to be used as an accessory to their cute little dress or designer jeans. They can go, look "pretty", join that sorority or fraternity, and party their spoiled little asses off. They're not in college to better themselves academically, but for their status.

I wish you and I had classes together! I need someone with whom I may share my many smirks.

[The Drunk Girl]

I wish you and I had classes together! I need someone with whom I may share my many smirks.

Well thank you very much, ma'am! :)

[Americano]

I'd recommend college for (almost) everyone. Even if they won't ever use the degree professionally, college generally expands people's experiences of the world, shows them different ways of thinking, introduces them to a wider array of people, and lets them experience brilliant and beautiful things (literature, for instance) that they might never have gotten around to otherwise. In my experience, HS students generally live in very small mental worlds when they graduate, though most of them aren't aware of it. Even a couple years in community college can help with that. To put it another way, even if you end up going right into the workforce or off to a technical school, I think just about everyone would benefit from taking the gen-ed college courses.

College can also be a nice buffer between living at home with parents and living completely on your own; it gives you some degree of independence but there are usually still people there to notice and help if you really crash and burn. I was an RA for a couple years and saw a lot of kids who really benefited from having a place to get their feet under them before they were completely on their own. That said, I'd advise against going to college while living at home; move at least a few hours away.

As for expense, I think that state should offer help to those who want to be there, and many do. Georgia, where I grew up, pays tuition to state schools for any resident who keeps a 3.0 GPA (which even the not-so-bright can manage in a community college if they're willing to work at it). Throw in a part-time or summer job, and the cost isn't prohibitive, even if you can't get a scholarship.

As far as public policy goes, I'd rather the state focus on keeping kids who demonstrate a strong desire to be in college funded than worry about aptitude, intelligence or vocational potential; colleges will sort that crew out on their own with grades, degree requirements and scholarship.

Regarding your last paragraph, what's to be done with those who don't make the cut after focusing them on emotional desire rather than capability? US high school citizenship and scholastic performance was formerly capable of making that cut and directing those who had no apparent college aptitude to service occupation goals.

Is US primary and secondary education now that fucked-up?

[The Drunk Guy]

Regarding your last paragraph, what's to be done with those who don't make the cut after focusing them on emotional desire rather than capability? US high school citizenship and scholastic performance was formerly capable of making that cut and directing those who had no apparent college aptitude to service occupation goals.

Is US primary and secondary education now that fucked-up?
That's an excellent point. In my job, I've taken care of several pre-baby-boomers who were done with school after the 8th grade. The amazing part is that they've had nice homes and very nice lives for themselves.

Take a look at a middle school graduate from today's world and you're looking at either a homeless person or a general laborer. Most can't read or write (How the fuck did they get to middle school!?!) and they straggle by on what scraps the high school graduates (poor folk) can spare for them.

This topic is especially important to me as I'm a (very, very :D) smart man who never finished college. I attended right out of high school several hours away from home and I went crazy in my dorm. I spent most nights staying up until daylight talking with my new, exotic friends and I paid no attention whatsoever to those boring-ass classes everyone talked about.

After getting kicked out, my mother (stopped just short of a doctorate) damn near shunned me. I worked at various things for a few years, trying to find something I could focus toward advancement in, all the time taking in the people, places, ideas, etc... I educated myself in a far more rich and realistic fashion than college could, but that means nothing to employers.

Eventually, I signed up for courses at a community college and performed wonderfully, particularly when I ignored the instructors and challenged myself. But that glamor wore off and I became bored with it all...because I already knew so much more about the topics than even some of the instructors! The general education requirement was an insult to my knowledge ability. Again, I left college and found a decent job with a chance to work my way up the ladder without a college degree. And my mother still gives me lectures about going back to school. :mad:

In my years of self-education, I noticed something else; college graduates I knew were often idiots that could barely perform their jobs. How does that happen? Oh, they give degrees based on how hard someone works and how much they can cram into their short term memory in order to take a test. It is so rare to find someone who actually LEARNS in college. To most college-goers, they're simply going to work. College is their pre-career career. Very few people take in what college has to offer, and what's worse is that college exists in such a way that this is not only possible, but the preferred method of doing things. :eek:

I say the American education system is a joke that has been corrupted by the ruling elite. They've dumbed down college to make it accessible by all because it's in their interest to keep us as stupid sheep. What politician wants an educated voter? What company wants an informed buyer? They've destroyed the joy of learning by replacing it with gadgets and TV shows and music videos and the world is filling up with morons.

[Donkey]

Regarding your last paragraph, what's to be done with those who don't make the cut after focusing them on emotional desire rather than capability? US high school citizenship and scholastic performance was formerly capable of making that cut and directing those who had no apparent college aptitude to service occupation goals.

Is US primary and secondary education now that fucked-up?
Yes.
That's an excellent point. In my job, I've taken care of several pre-baby-boomers who were done with school after the 8th grade. The amazing part is that they've had nice homes and very nice lives for themselves.

Take a look at a middle school graduate from today's world and you're looking at either a homeless person or a general laborer. Most can't read or write (How the fuck did they get to middle school!?!) and they straggle by on what scraps the high school graduates (poor folk) can spare for them.

This topic is especially important to me as I'm a (very, very :D) smart man who never finished college. I attended right out of high school several hours away from home and I went crazy in my dorm. I spent most nights staying up until daylight talking with my new, exotic friends and I paid no attention whatsoever to those boring-ass classes everyone talked about.

After getting kicked out, my mother (stopped just short of a doctorate) damn near shunned me. I worked at various things for a few years, trying to find something I could focus toward advancement in, all the time taking in the people, places, ideas, etc... I educated myself in a far more rich and realistic fashion than college could, but that means nothing to employers.

Eventually, I signed up for courses at a community college and performed wonderfully, particularly when I ignored the instructors and challenged myself. But that glamor wore off and I became bored with it all...because I already knew so much more about the topics than even some of the instructors! The general education requirement was an insult to my knowledge ability. Again, I left college and found a decent job with a chance to work my way up the ladder without a college degree. And my mother still gives me lectures about going back to school. :mad:

In my years of self-education, I noticed something else; college graduates I knew were often idiots that could barely perform their jobs. How does that happen? Oh, they give degrees based on how hard someone works and how much they can cram into their short term memory in order to take a test. It is so rare to find someone who actually LEARNS in college. To most college-goers, they're simply going to work. College is their pre-career career. Very few people take in what college has to offer, and what's worse is that college exists in such a way that this is not only possible, but the preferred method of doing things. :eek:

I say the American education system is a joke that has been corrupted by the ruling elite. They've dumbed down college to make it accessible by all because it's in their interest to keep us as stupid sheep. What politician wants an educated voter? What company wants an informed buyer? They've destroyed the joy of learning by replacing it with gadgets and TV shows and music videos and the world is filling up with morons.
You touch on a very important point: all of the fucking careerists that permeate college. They get their bullshit wanker business degrees, pass with a C+ in economics and an A+ in fraternity, and spend their four years talking about how they're gonna jump straight into the business world, and bitch incessantly about taking the required humanities and social science classes. I hate, hate hate them.

[Americano]

Yes.

You touch on a very important point: all of the fucking careerists that permeate college. They get their bullshit wanker business degrees, pass with a C+ in economics and an A+ in fraternity, and spend their four years talking about how they're gonna jump straight into the business world, and bitch incessantly about taking the required humanities and social science classes. I hate, hate hate them.

An undergrad business degree can't be worth much in today's society. According to friends still in the business community even MBAs from other than top schools have been a dime a dozen for quite some time due to the profitability to second and third tier university MBA mills.

Unless, of course, the recipient is an offspring from a member in good standing of the old boys club.

[Americano]

That's an excellent point. In my job, I've taken care of several pre-baby-boomers who were done with school after the 8th grade. The amazing part is that they've had nice homes and very nice lives for themselves.

Take a look at a middle school graduate from today's world and you're looking at either a homeless person or a general laborer. Most can't read or write (How the fuck did they get to middle school!?!) and they straggle by on what scraps the high school graduates (poor folk) can spare for them.

This topic is especially important to me as I'm a (very, very :D) smart man who never finished college. I attended right out of high school several hours away from home and I went crazy in my dorm. I spent most nights staying up until daylight talking with my new, exotic friends and I paid no attention whatsoever to those boring-ass classes everyone talked about.

After getting kicked out, my mother (stopped just short of a doctorate) damn near shunned me. I worked at various things for a few years, trying to find something I could focus toward advancement in, all the time taking in the people, places, ideas, etc... I educated myself in a far more rich and realistic fashion than college could, but that means nothing to employers.

Eventually, I signed up for courses at a community college and performed wonderfully, particularly when I ignored the instructors and challenged myself. But that glamor wore off and I became bored with it all...because I already knew so much more about the topics than even some of the instructors! The general education requirement was an insult to my knowledge ability. Again, I left college and found a decent job with a chance to work my way up the ladder without a college degree. And my mother still gives me lectures about going back to school. :mad:

In my years of self-education, I noticed something else; college graduates I knew were often idiots that could barely perform their jobs. How does that happen? Oh, they give degrees based on how hard someone works and how much they can cram into their short term memory in order to take a test. It is so rare to find someone who actually LEARNS in college. To most college-goers, they're simply going to work. College is their pre-career career. Very few people take in what college has to offer, and what's worse is that college exists in such a way that this is not only possible, but the preferred method of doing things. :eek:

I say the American education system is a joke that has been corrupted by the ruling elite. They've dumbed down college to make it accessible by all because it's in their interest to keep us as stupid sheep. What politician wants an educated voter? What company wants an informed buyer? They've destroyed the joy of learning by replacing it with gadgets and TV shows and music videos and the world is filling up with morons.

I think you have to exclude much of the sciences from that (valid) opinion. And don't forget education loans further condemning those obtaining undergrad degrees with insignificant labor market demand to mediocrity or default.

I'd like to see academic tenure at all levels changed to performance contracts regularly evaluated by committees consisting of a broad professional occupation range. The unions are turning academia and all public service into another GM.

[Margot]

I think you have to exclude much of the sciences from that (valid) opinion. And don't forget education loans further condemning those obtaining undergrad degrees with insignificant labor market demand to mediocrity or default.

I'd like to see academic tenure at all levels changed to performance contracts regularly evaluated by committees consisting of a broad professional occupation range. The unions are turning academia and all public service into another GM.

My school, interestingly enough, isn't unionized and thinks tenure is bullshit.

Also, it is nice to know that our student evaluations count. They aren't just thrown away because some asshole is old and has tenure. They're actually evaluated by higher-ups and passed on to the instructors.

I can bitch about my peers 'til the cows come home, but the faculty at my school is pretty rockin' (all except for that one guy, and that other guy, and the guy who hawks the loogies).

[Americano]

My school, interestingly enough, isn't unionized and thinks tenure is bullshit.

Also, it is nice to know that our student evaluations count. They aren't just thrown away because some asshole is old and has tenure. They're actually evaluated by higher-ups and passed on to the instructors.

I can bitch about my peers 'til the cows come home, but the faculty at my school is pretty rockin' (all except for that one guy, and that other guy, and the guy who hawks the loogies).

Is it private or on another planet?

[Margot]

Is it private or on another planet?

Florida public, actually. It is brand spanking new (opened in 1997) and only just left the open-admissions policy in 2005 (I think). No doubt they'll embark down the road of Heinous very soon (I think some of the teachers are trying to unionize), but for now it is pretty nice.

[The Drunk Guy]

I think you have to exclude much of the sciences from that (valid) opinion. And don't forget education loans further condemning those obtaining undergrad degrees with insignificant labor market demand to mediocrity or default. I agree that some science students are true learners, but that would only include those seeking a career in research or collegiate education. Most who study science, however, do so for a career as some sort of lab assistant or teacher and treat the subject matter as something they have to memorize to pass tests. Also, I think philosophy majors have an interest in learning and I commend them for working to get the least respected degree in the modern world. Otherwise, I think they're all enrolled as one more step on the road to retirement.

I'd like to see academic tenure at all levels changed to performance contracts regularly evaluated by committees consisting of a broad professional occupation range. The unions are turning academia and all public service into another GM.
It is one of the largest industries in the nation. That is the problem. Collegiate studies used to be a privilege and now they're treated as another basic requirement for the middle class. As long as people choose to sink themselves into a lifetime's worth of debt for that piece of paper, the industry will bend and sway to the market. I think the only hope is for the market to collapse, leaving these massive schools unable to support such large enrollments, resetting their own standards.

[Donkey]

TDG, while I agree with you in a lot of your observations about college students (see my previous angry post about careerists), I think you're making a lot of overtly sweeping generalizations that don't bear out under scrutiny.

[Americano]

I agree that some science students are true learners, but that would only include those seeking a career in research or collegiate education. Most who study science, however, do so for a career as some sort of lab assistant or teacher and treat the subject matter as something they have to memorize to pass tests. Also, I think philosophy majors have an interest in learning and I commend them for working to get the least respected degree in the modern world. Otherwise, I think they're all enrolled as one more step on the road to retirement.

It's fine with me that people use higher education to facilitate a career which provides a comfortable retirement. That normally means they'll be contributing to society in the form of professional expertise, exercising reasonable logic in arriving at personal decisions and paying taxes until they do retire.

What I would like to see is the basics in place via secondary school to determine who has the desire and ability to start and finish undergrad studies rather than expending those public resources on people who for whatever reason aren't college material. From what I read on public forums and hear from people raising teens is US secondary schools have become more of a holding pen than preparing all students to make informed decisions on pursuing professional, trade or service occupation goals.

It is one of the largest industries in the nation. That is the problem. Collegiate studies used to be a privilege and now they're treated as another basic requirement for the middle class. As long as people choose to sink themselves into a lifetime's worth of debt for that piece of paper, the industry will bend and sway to the market. I think the only hope is for the market to collapse, leaving these massive schools unable to support such large enrollments, resetting their own standards.

It's already collapsing at muni and state levels. Unions have expanded civil service retirement benefits (in my state that includes academia), both health care and salaries, to a point of removing any incentive for recipients to contribute accumulated personal assets to their own retirement. Unless Oregon implements a form of UHC to broaden the risk pool and contributions those funds will be exhausted in the next decade.

Other municipalities and states who succumbed to union demands for civil servant retirement benefits and projected fund revenues on high financially engineered derivative ROIs are now using current general fund revenue to make up the difference or face devastating lawsuits.

I see the situation as a forthcoming national crisis.

[The Drunk Guy]

It's fine with me that people use higher education to facilitate a career which provides a comfortable retirement. That normally means they'll be contributing to society in the form of professional expertise, exercising reasonable logic in arriving at personal decisions and paying taxes until they do retire. I believe in job training, but I think there should be a larger distinction between that and a college level education. The people who are just there for a job resent the general education requirements that are supposed to make them "well-rounded." It's a waste of their time and money to force them to sit through that when a program based around their career goals could be completed in a year or two with out that requirement.

What I would like to see is the basics in place via secondary school to determine who has the desire and ability to start and finish undergrad studies rather than expending those public resources on people who for whatever reason aren't college material. From what I read on public forums and hear from people raising teens is US secondary schools have become more of a holding pen than preparing all students to make informed decisions on pursuing professional, trade or service occupation goals. I agree 100%. A proper revitalization of secondary schools would help solve many problems, not just the college-system woes. People deserve a chance at realistic goals for themselves rather than being stuck with everyone else's generic goal of a bachelor degree. And those expensive gen-eds could be carried out in public schools for all to grow from.



I see the situation as a forthcoming national crisis.
Another in an ever-growing list.;)
TDG, while I agree with you in a lot of your observations about college students (see my previous angry post about careerists), I think you're making a lot of overtly sweeping generalizations that don't bear out under scrutiny.There are always exceptions to the stereotype, but I would wager that my generalizations refer to at least a majority of college students and all state colleges. I would say that number decreases in private schools, but only because people are paying more and are more apt to understand it's importance.

That said, this is an opinion thread. Feel free to make an argument about what I've said and I will defend my position. That's how I received my education. :D

[Americano]

I believe in job training, but I think there should be a larger distinction between that and a college level education. The people who are just there for a job resent the general education requirements that are supposed to make them "well-rounded." It's a waste of their time and money to force them to sit through that when a program based around their career goals could be completed in a year or two with out that requirement.

Sorry, but at a professional level I'd prefer hiring those who possess not only the minimum required skill set but have been formally exposed through higher education to other, seemingly unrelated subjects. Otherwise my labor force would be limited to drones who hadn't been exposed to critical thinking beyond their immediate specialty, which would in most instances severely limit their flexibility and professional growth.

A degree, as the saying goes, is only a ticket to get in the door. A screening process. There's a price to get that ticket for admission and those who limit their education solely to a defined skill set without formal exposure to developing other areas of critical thinking are, generally speaking, going to end up on a dead-end career path.

[Michael]

Btw, "critical thinking" is a course that falls under the discipline of philosophy.

Just sayin'.

[The Drunk Guy]

Btw, "critical thinking" is a course that falls under the discipline of philosophy.

Just sayin'.
Well said. And why couldn't that be incorporated into a career program? Why couldn't that be stressed in secondary schools (the way it should be)?

Also, an abbreviated program would make it easier for people to learn new skill sets. Ideally, someone could expand their knowledge of an area of industry with just a few months of study and become qualified for new positions in no time.

This, of course, is in regards to those "careerists" that simply go through the motions of college. It's these people who are taking all those wonderful gen-eds that aren't related to their major and wasting that knowledge. They learn what they need for the tests and forget it after they turn in their blue book. The people who do learn from such things are still going to be attending college for the sake of learning and they're going to really stand out in whatever industry they choose.

Would you rather hire someone who did their work and forgot what it was about or someone who took it all in and can still spit out quotes from War and Peace in Russian? ;)

[Donkey]

Sorry, but at a professional level I'd prefer hiring those who possess not only the minimum required skill set but have been formally exposed through higher education to other, seemingly unrelated subjects. Otherwise my labor force would be limited to drones who hadn't been exposed to critical thinking beyond their immediate specialty, which would in most instances severely limit their flexibility and professional growth.

A degree, as the saying goes, is only a ticket to get in the door. A screening process. There's a price to get that ticket for admission and those who limit their education solely to a defined skill set without formal exposure to developing other areas of critical thinking are, generally speaking, going to end up on a dead-end career path.
Indeed. An auto-mechanic doesn't need to have a working understanding of the concept of the social contract, or know a bit of real history to fix my car. But that doesn't mean that s/he shouldn't. That kind of education should be widely available and affordable, and encouraged. A more informed, thoughtful society is integral to a functioning democracy. The ruling elites certainly don't want to see said mechanic being able to dish on philosophy...

[The Drunk Guy]

Indeed. An auto-mechanic doesn't need to have a working understanding of the concept of the social contract, or know a bit of real history to fix my car. But that doesn't mean that s/he shouldn't. That kind of education should be widely available and affordable, and encouraged. A more informed, thoughtful society is integral to a functioning democracy. The ruling elites certainly don't want to see said mechanic being able to dish on philosophy...
I agree completely. That is why this stuff should be strengthened earlier in life and not made a choice. I think political theory and philosophy should be taught each year through middle and high schools just like Science and Math and History. Throw in a computer requirement and you've just doubled every citizen's mental capabilities. :D

[Donkey]

I agree completely. That is why this stuff should be strengthened earlier in life and not made a choice. I think political theory and philosophy should be taught each year through middle and high schools just like Science and Math and History. Throw in a computer requirement and you've just doubled every citizen's mental capabilities. :D
In liberal arts schools there is usually a "core" which is required to graduate, thus even if you are doing a business degree, or a "sports science" degree, you still are expected to learn some philosophical shit. I've never seen such pissing and whining and moaning in my life, though.

[The Drunk Guy]

In liberal arts schools there is usually a "core" which is required to graduate, thus even if you are doing a business degree, or a "sports science" degree, you still are expected to learn some philosophical shit. I've never seen such pissing and whining and moaning in my life, though.
Some people hate the thought of being challenged mentally. That's why colleges have sunk so low. Send those fuckers somewhere else and let thinking men do what they do the best that they can do it.

[Michael]

In liberal arts schools there is usually a "core" which is required to graduate, thus even if you are doing a business degree, or a "sports science" degree, you still are expected to learn some philosophical shit. I've never seen such pissing and whining and moaning in my life, though.

I recall avoiding certain philosophy courses because they were known to be invaded by non-philosophy students taking required electives.

Everyone knew that if your course had even a couple of those idiots taking 'electives under duress' in it, it could kill the whole course for everyone.

[Margot]

Some people hate the thought of being challenged mentally. That's why colleges have sunk so low. Send those fuckers somewhere else and let thinking men do what they do the best that they can do it.

Well that, and lots of philosophy is considered "flakey" and I agree with the title. I've always thought of "critical thinking" as common fucking sense and not some deep philosophical term.

(Not that I don't totally dig philosophy, it's just that a lot of it is, um. yeah.)


Indeed. An auto-mechanic doesn't need to have a working understanding of the concept of the social contract, or know a bit of real history to fix my car. But that doesn't mean that s/he shouldn't. That kind of education should be widely available and affordable, and encouraged. A more informed, thoughtful society is integral to a functioning democracy. The ruling elites certainly don't want to see said mechanic being able to dish on philosophy...

How will that work economically? If my mechanic is as educated as me, a CEO, and has the same understandings of social contracts and philosophical idealism, then why isn't he making the same amount of money as me?

This isn't going to lead to a functioning democracy. It is far more conducive to idealistic communism. I am not a smurf.

[Michael]

Well that, and lots of philosophy is considered "flakey" and I agree with the title. I've always thought of "critical thinking" as common fucking sense and not some deep philosophical term.
Yes well, as a general rule, I'd say that common sense is one of the greatest barriers to actually thinking critically.

[Zarquon]

Yes well, as a general rule, I'd say that common sense is one of the greatest barriers to actually thinking critically.
Indeed, a lot of scientific principles and findings are counter-intuitive, and so-called commonsense appears to be more about conformity and comfortable generalisations than sense, and is either deficient in sense or not as common as its held to be.

[Margot]

Yes well, as a general rule, I'd say that common sense is one of the greatest barriers to actually thinking critically.

Agreed. Such a shame.

Do you remember when you were a kid and your Mom or Dad would say "oh, what, you're right and everyone else on earth is wrong?" God that pissed me off. Yes, that is exactly what I'm driving at. Got a problem? My Dad pulled that shit, but my Ma was very "well, ok, why is that so? Let's discuss."

I guess my definition of "common sense" is very different from the proper definition thanks to JHC. She ruined me for polite, normal society. I guess I should have said "good sense" instead of "common sense." My bad.

[The Drunk Guy]

I guess I should have said "good sense" instead of "common sense." My bad.
Don't sweat it. I followed your meaning despite the "semantic-mongerers" running about. :D

[Americano]

Indeed. An auto-mechanic doesn't need to have a working understanding of the concept of the social contract, or know a bit of real history to fix my car. But that doesn't mean that s/he shouldn't. That kind of education should be widely available and affordable, and encouraged. A more informed, thoughtful society is integral to a functioning democracy. The ruling elites certainly don't want to see said mechanic being able to dish on philosophy...

I think functioning democracy is the issue. In the US with two self-serving political parties periodically swapping places as the public image of government those ruling elites are well aware of the potential disruption a well-educated general public could present.

That's one reason the college for all gimmick has been promoted as part of the new American Dream. Drop the quality of higher education down to where those just interested in getting a degree for the sake of a degree can cruise through and graduate with what used to be called a high school diploma. Pass/fail grading dovetailed nicely with that plan. Then they can decide what to do with their lives in their early 20s when they realize each job opening requiring a BA in business entitles them to put their resume in the pile with 5,000 others for what's basically a clerical position. That means going for the MBA, more debt, and before they know it they're in the squirrel cage of taking a service level job to pay the bills or still living at home in their late 20s to early 30s while still seeking that first real job.

[Americano]

Agreed. Such a shame.

Do you remember when you were a kid and your Mom or Dad would say "oh, what, you're right and everyone else on earth is wrong?" God that pissed me off. Yes, that is exactly what I'm driving at. Got a problem? My Dad pulled that shit, but my Ma was very "well, ok, why is that so? Let's discuss."

I guess my definition of "common sense" is very different from the proper definition thanks to JHC. She ruined me for polite, normal society. I guess I should have said "good sense" instead of "common sense." My bad.

You'll thank her for that. The consequence of belonging to polite, normal society is an ugly fate.