Death of babies

[Donkey]

i didn't know exactly how to title this thread in a less abrupt manner. :p

So, in society we often talk about how the death of a child is extra-tragic: we obsess over parents who go nuts and slaughter their children, when civilians are killed in war or terrorism, we specify how many of them were "children." Something just seems extra sad about a life being snuffed out so young.

But not too young. I don't think I'm alone in this (I've asked a few other people), but it seems to me there is an age when the death isn't yet that sad. I won't say it's a hard and fast rule, but on a self-observing honest visceral level, the death of, say, a three month infant, to me, is less tragic than the death of, say, a six year old. A three year old is less sad than an 11 year old.

Why is this? I can't think of any rational region, it's just a natural reaction for me. Does anybody else experience this? :ummm:

[Lily]

I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with reaching full potential, with experiencing all life offers. The closer the child is to reaching that state, the more tragic the death seems. It's as if the child were robbed of some mercurial thing which all of us expect to acheive -- some ultimate happiness, success, acceptance, love, realization of dreams and goals.

I think that sense of early tragic death extends even into early adulthood. I'm thinking about some of the consoling words I hear when a baby dies, words such as, "He is with God now," or comforting words directed more toward the parents. As the child ages, then other, more descriptive words of the child's personality come into play. "She's was such a loving child." With teenagers, it becomes more about her friends and her activities, "He had so many friends who loved him. All of the kids on the football team came to the funeral." With young adults, say early to mid-twenties, then another kind of language is spoken, "She was just coming into her own. She was just beginning to experience life."

When I lost my daughter at age 25, I was struck by how many of the people who came to her funeral -- friends, former teachers, former college classmates, co-workers -- talked about her death as a loss of potential. "She was the one who was supposed to...," and "The world will never know...," and "She had so much to say as an artist." It was as if a larger dream, a collective dream, would not be realized with her gone.

[Michael]

Btw, it was traditional in medieval times (when death in childbirth or death of very young children was quite common), it was common for many families to not even name a baby until the baptism ceremony (just in case the baby died, they didn't want to be too attached).

In other words, death of babies is more common than death of children. Death of a newborn baby is just something people seem to accept, while the death of a child or teenager is held to be a great tragedy.

With grown children, they have an identity - and as Lily pointed out, lots of potential and thus, there is something to mourn.

From my experience, I'd say that the largest funerals are those for a teenager. The whole high school and most of a town's population will show up for that.

[Americano]

Btw, it was traditional in medieval times (when death in childbirth or death of very young children was quite common), it was common for many families to not even name a baby until the baptism ceremony (just in case the baby died, they didn't want to be too attached).

In other words, death of babies is more common than death of children. Death of a newborn baby is just something people seem to accept, while the death of a child or teenager is held to be a great tragedy.

With grown children, they have an identity - and as Lily pointed out, lots of potential and thus, there is something to mourn.

From my experience, I'd say that the largest funerals are those for a teenager. The whole high school and most of a town's population will show up for that.

In the US a cop killed in the line of duty funeral outdraws just about anything else. Cops from all over the US attend such funerals (mostly using public funds).

[dilettante]

i didn't know exactly how to title this thread in a less abrupt manner. :p

So, in society we often talk about how the death of a child is extra-tragic: we obsess over parents who go nuts and slaughter their children, when civilians are killed in war or terrorism, we specify how many of them were "children." Something just seems extra sad about a life being snuffed out so young.

But not too young. I don't think I'm alone in this (I've asked a few other people), but it seems to me there is an age when the death isn't yet that sad. I won't say it's a hard and fast rule, but on a self-observing honest visceral level, the death of, say, a three month infant, to me, is less tragic than the death of, say, a six year old. A three year old is less sad than an 11 year old.

Why is this? I can't think of any rational region, it's just a natural reaction for me. Does anybody else experience this? :ummm:

I know what you mean, and it does seem odd.

Part of it, I think, is that there are multiple senses of "tragedy" that are felt when a child dies and the balance between them changes based on age.
For example, there is always the tragedy/sadness of losing someone we know or know about. The older the child, the better those around them have come to know them and the more there is to know about them (and to appear in news reports). It seems much more personal when someone with a developed personality and a list of hobbies and plans dies than when someone dies for whom we only have a name and a face, as is the case with an infant.
On the other hand, there is a different sort of tragedy/anger in response to the death of an innocent victim, and childhood is associated with innocence. Hence the horror of murdering an infant or a young child: its just so obviously a travesty of justice without any possibility of their having (even to a small extent) 'deserved it'.

The first sort of tragedy/sadness is relatively low for an infant and rises steadily as the victim gets older and more developed, then maybe leveling off in the late teens/early twenties.
The second sort of tragedy/anger is highest in the early years and maybe begins to decline as the victim enters their teens and level out in the late twenties.
So, combining the two progressions, we get a sort of 'tragedy maximum' somewhere in the older years of childhood or the early teens. Or something like that... :shrug:

[Zarquon]

I know what you mean, and it does seem odd.

So, combining the two progressions, we get a sort of 'tragedy maximum' somewhere in the older years of childhood or the early teens. Or something like that... :shrug:
I suppose you're onto something here; a 15yr-old kid was shot dead by the police in Athens last year, and it was just the tipping point for weeks of youth rioting, and riots took place on his anniversary(last week) as well, to take just one example.
And I agree with Lily about the potential thing.

[Greendruid]

This is a well-documented phenomenon in archaeology, though it is not widely known. It is interesting to see these trends adjust to the expectations of society as well. For instance, in the 18th and 19th century, childhood death was not uncommon from all those nasty things that plagued us until vaccinations were available. Smallpox, measles, mumps, scarlet fever, cholera and tuberculosis were common diseases for those born with a weak immune system. It would not be uncommon for 3 of ten children in a family to die in childhood. Likewise, we see little to no memorailsation for people in these categories at those times. In other words, no grave markers and very little expense to the coffin and "trimmings". The corollary to this is that the parents of young children are also often young themselves and have little saved up to afford memorialising a child in the manner that would be expected of an adult in society. Interesting topic.

[SMadsen]

Death of infants is to be expected regardless of whichever organism one chooses to look at. So I for one find no apparent reason why organisms should not have adapted to that fact. Even though mammals usually employ so-called K-strategies (few offspring with higher probability of survival to sexual maturity) and humans in particular employ a K-strategy near the end of the scale, they (including us humans) are still quite flexible regarding reproduction rates and usually have very little problems with replacing losses.

Of course, this is solely a perspective from wearing the wildlife cap. Wearing the emotional and cultural caps may yield very different perspectives.

[evanescence]

Babies that die of natural causes are a fact of life, but it is unspeakably tragic when they are abused or murdered, especially by their own parents.

[Evangeline]

I think for the people who know the child, it's harder when they're older, because you know them better and have known them longer....

?

But as far as babies and kids I don't know....I don't feel it's more tragic for a 6 year old than for a 3 month old.

I feel it's equally tragic or more tragic for the younger, as they've had less chance at life.

[Michael]

Death of infants is to be expected regardless of whichever organism one chooses to look at. So I for one find no apparent reason why organisms should not have adapted to that fact. Even though mammals usually employ so-called K-strategies (few offspring with higher probability of survival to sexual maturity) and humans in particular employ a K-strategy near the end of the scale, they (including us humans) are still quite flexible regarding reproduction rates and usually have very little problems with replacing losses.

Of course, this is solely a perspective from wearing the wildlife cap. Wearing the emotional and cultural caps may yield very different perspectives.
How did I miss this post? This should have been a "post of the week" for sure!

:lol:

[Donkey]

Babies that die of natural causes are a fact of life, but it is unspeakably tragic when they are abused or murdered, especially by their own parents.
I object on the grounds that in the circumstance which you describe, it is not the death of the child that is sad, but the betrayal of our parental instincts which we find repulsive.

[evanescence]

I object on the grounds that in the circumstance which you describe, it is not the death of the child that is sad, but the betrayal of our parental instincts which we find repulsive.

i think both is quite sad, actually. I actually feel ashamed of being human when I read some of these stories.

[SMadsen]

How did I miss this post? This should have been a "post of the week" for sure!

:lol:
Thanks, .. I think?

[Michael]

Thanks, .. I think?
Yes, it was meant to be complimentary!

That's an excellent post - very informative and concise. I just find it funny as well since it is just so dry. :D

[SMadsen]

Yes, it was meant to be complimentary!

That's an excellent post - very informative and concise. I just find it funny as well since it is just so dry. :D
Well, thanks again then :)

As for dry, well, don't tell him this but I'm kinda jealous of Americano's "Official Forum Cynic" label.

[evanescence]

Me, too. lol

[Michael]

Well, thanks again then :)

As for dry, well, don't tell him this but I'm kinda jealous of Americano's "Official Forum Cynic" label.

Actually, he turned down the opportunity to be officially vested with that title! :D (rather surprised me!)

So as far as I'm concerned, the title of official forum cynic is still open! :)

(though I really don't want to start a competition on the issue!)

[evanescence]

Actually, he turned down the opportunity to be officially vested with that title! :D (rather surprised me!)

So as far as I'm concerned, the title of official forum cynic is still open! :)

(though I really don't want to start a competition on the issue!)

I'll take it. :D

[SMadsen]

Cynicism is when launching an attack (http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20163&postcount=11) on religion in the games section of a forum.

So I'll take it, thanks ;)

[Americano]

Actually, he turned down the opportunity to be officially vested with that title! :D (rather surprised me!)

So as far as I'm concerned, the title of official forum cynic is still open! :)

(though I really don't want to start a competition on the issue!)

You have.