Interesting Day on Campus

[The Drunk Girl]

So I get done grabbing a quick bite to eat on campus, when I am asked if I would like to buy some candy to help support a local church. I answered honestly that I didn't have any cash on me (I probably wouldn't have bought any anyways because I'm not too fond of sweets, but that's besides the point).

It was at this point my friend pointed out another man wearing a black sweatshirt with hot pink writing that states: HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN! THEY ARE GOING TO HELL! The red flags went up, but we ignored him and went on to sit somewhere to smoke. A few minutes later another man stands up in the middle of the square and starts preaching at the top of his lungs. His shirt read something as well that was informing everyone of going to hell.

I really couldn't believe what I was hearing and the approach they were using. This "preacher" was screaming about if you smoke..if you have pre-marital sex...if you're a drunkard...if you have impure thoughts...if you're homosexual...if you have ever lied...YOU ARE GOING TO HELL! Everything, every action, every idea is going to send you to hell. Now, I understand these ideas and the ways of getting to heaven, but listing off everything that sends you to hell is not going to do any good. Not once did he mention how not to go to hell.

Of course, I'm stewing and people start yelling at the man to shut up. The man with the black hoody comes to my friend and me and hands me an Obama dollar and hands here a card with Tupac and Notorious B.I.G. on the front with "Is There Life After Death?" written across the top.

Again I was shocked, but this time at why these three men were used to promote the word. Obama was used to show how far our country has come and that he posesses good character. Then the big question: HOW IS YOUR CHARACTER?

Maybe you are good compared to other people, but does GOD see you as "good"...If you have broken the third, seventh, eighth, and ninth commandments then you are a "liar, a thief, and adulterer at heart and a blasphemer. Your are a lawbreaker that deserves JUSTICE. God's punishment for you is HELL FOREVER.

Tupac and Biggie were used because their lyrics frequently spoke of death.
Once again those four commandments were targeted and if you answered "yes" to any of them then, "God will judge YOU and by HIS standard you'll be guilty and end up in Hell!"

There is a link on the back of both of the cards: http://www.Heaven-Or-Hell.us (http://www.heaven-or-hell.us/)

I will admit I am a little scared to check these out...

These acts are totally outrageous in my opinion. The old fire and brimstone type of preaching isn't going to get anyone anywhere. I just wanted to go tell the man that if these are his ideas then he is going to hell, too.

[Donkey]

What the fuck!

They seem to be all over the map.

[dilettante]

I've seen similar groups on campus here, as well. It's quite disconcerting, especially for me as a Christian. What I find most distressing is the emotions on display: the primary emotion apparent in the "preachers" so often seems to be anger, or even hatred; the primary response they're trying to create is one of intense fear. The notion of grace, which IMO is (or should be) at the center of the Christian message, gets entirely swallowed up in frenzy of rage and terror.

[The Drunk Guy]

I've seen similar groups on campus here, as well. It's quite disconcerting, especially for me as a Christian. What I find most distressing is the emotions on display: the primary emotion apparent in the "preachers" so often seems to be anger, or even hatred; the primary response they're trying to create is one of intense fear. The notion of grace, which IMO is (or should be) at the center of the Christian message, gets entirely swallowed up in frenzy of rage and terror.
We call that "Ol' Timey Religion" 'round here. ;)

I remember Brother Jim from my college days. I stood by for a while to watch him piss everyone off, but then I got pissed off when he told a Muslim kid he was going to hell for worshiping a false idol. I yelled some, and then saw the crazed look of a wild animal in Brother Jim's eyes and decided to give up and go drink some beers. I do remember that the university told him to relocate the next day and he ended up getting stoned (the Biblical kind) and having to leave campus. :thumbsup:

[partofme]

The biggest church here in Murray is Glendale Church of Christ and there is also another large Church of Christ across town. They make southern baptist look like Unitarians. Recently we had a group trying to get a petition together to get a vote in the city for allowing packaged alcohol sales. Right now drinks can only be served in restaurants. Those churches plus some other local ones started making the fight really nasty and using some of this sort of rhetoric to get their points across. One county over they had a similar vote recently and one church kicked out 19 members that signed a similar petition there for the same thing was made public. They did offer to allow them to stay if the publicly apologized to the congregation and promised to vote against the initiative. Nobody stayed. Over here that sort of thing is common.

[Lily]

Those are who my mother used to call "fire and brimstone" preachers. We went to a southern baptist church as kids and that was the kind of sermon the preacher delivered. Scared me so badly I threw up, thus beginning my lifelong aversion to organized religion.

[Zarquon]

Awful as your experience was, if you haven't been to India, you haven't seen religion in all its tribal glory.

[Non Sequitur]

"blesssed be the man who preaches grace when grace seems forgotten"- Martin Luther.

[The Drunk Girl]

"blesssed be the man who preaches grace when grace seems forgotten"- Martin Luther.

I might just use that if the group comes back.

I have also thought about writing a letter to the school paper about the ordeal.

There is another man that comes on campus and he stands under a tree and whenever people walk by he merely says, "Have a blessed day" or "God loves you." I'm alright with that and I have never heard anyone else get upset or bad-mouth him. I'm sure there are some it perturbs, but he isn't shouting at the top of his lungs about how everyone is going to hell and causing an uproar. These people came into our college community and caused disruption. That's a no bueno in my book.

[Michael]

Awful as your experience was, if you haven't been to India, you haven't seen religion in all its tribal glory.

I believe USA outscores India on most measures of religious culture. USA remarkably is quite close to Iran (as one of the most religiously obsessed countries on the planet).

[Zarquon]

I believe USA outscores India on most measures of religious culture. USA remarkably is quite close to Iran (as one of the most religiously obsessed countries on the planet).
Dude, we've had people killing each other over religion here.
No politician campaigns without taking the 'blessings' of a popular deity, no newspaper is complete without a spirituality and astrology column, nothing important is begun without some ritual, people wear all sorts of 'sacred' threads and amulets to ward off the 'evil eye', each and everyone's cult is honored with a public holiday, instead of a uniform civil code there's a separate one for separate religions, thousands of 'gurus' referred to by the media as 'godmen' have their own cults promising 'salvation' and plying 'traditional medicine'(a racket in its own right), not to mention homeopaths and practitioners of 'vaastu'(Indian Feng-Shui). And all that in the urban areas, rural ones being worst still.
We are secularized to an extent at the govt-level, but not at all as far the society is concerned
Practice of infanticide, dowry, purdah, and female foeticide(female-specific abortion) continues unabated by even so-called educated people(purdah mostly among Muslims).

Not to forget the caste-system, which in spite of our massively wasteful affirmative action(called reservation) initiatives, is thriving outside some westernized pockets.

The govt interprets our constitutionally-mandated secularism to be "respect" for every religion(!), and you can imagine what that leads to, especially at the state-level. Several states have anti-conversion laws(mostly to hinder Missionaries), and it is both constitutional and routine to ban books, movies, etc at the slightest whining by this or that cult for having their 'religious sentiments' hurt.

[Non Sequitur]

I might just use that if the group comes back.

I have also thought about writing a letter to the school paper about the ordeal.

There is another man that comes on campus and he stands under a tree and whenever people walk by he merely says, "Have a blessed day" or "God loves you." I'm alright with that and I have never heard anyone else get upset or bad-mouth him. I'm sure there are some it perturbs, but he isn't shouting at the top of his lungs about how everyone is going to hell and causing an uproar. These people came into our college community and caused disruption. That's a no bueno in my book.

See, here's the problem, Evangelical/Pentecostal theology falls into the trap of making Christianity all about the individual. Christian theology usually can be divided into two categories: a theology of Glory, and the theology of the cross. The theology of Glory focuses on the glorious acts of God (example: power, omniscience, sovereignty, etc...). this type of theology is very triumphalistic. Jesus is the conquering hero, the warrior who vanquished death, the perfect example in life, etc... The problem is when one believes that this is what the savior is primarily identified with religion becomes about what the individual can do. Since Jesus is the conquering hero over death and sin the human, who is baptized into Christ victory, is capable of perfection, good works, etc... This type of theology is very seductive. It makes the person feel like the winner and it glosses over all bad and evil things in the world. The other category for theology is the theology of the cross. This theology does not gloss over evil, but calls it what is. The savior and God's power are primarily seen in weakness (a criminal executed on a cross). Evil is not yet defeated and God's power is not a power for mighty works, but a power to save. A power defined by Grace.

Anyway, that's my rant. These people you describe fall into a bad genre of theology.

[The Drunk Guy]

Dude, we've had people killing each other over religion here.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/23/us/violence-against-homosexuals-rising-groups-seeking-wider-protection-say.html

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/ (http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/)

And that's just in a quick Google search.

India has a different type of religious trouble. The trouble there is tension amongst competing faiths. The trouble here is tension between Christian extremists and Christian moderates. The moderates are tolerant and understanding, but lack the numbers to combat the fervor of the extremists. Luckily, because the moderates are still Christian, it controls the actions of the extremists, keeping them from lashing out with their intolerant fear-mongering.

[Zarquon]

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/23/us/violence-against-homosexuals-rising-groups-seeking-wider-protection-say.html

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/ (http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/)

I meant full-scale rioting, and also, what about the rest of the points?

[The Drunk Guy]

No politician campaigns without taking the 'blessings' of a popular deity, no newspaper is complete without a spirituality and astrology column,Candidates here have to confess their beliefs early in their campaign, and you better be a Protestant of some sort if you want in office. Astrology has it's place in American newspapers and most have sections discussing faith and local religious activities. In Lexington, a small city near me, the paper's Sunday edition has an entire pull out section for "Faith."

nothing important is begun without some ritual, people wear all sorts of 'sacred' threads and amulets to ward off the 'evil eye', These are simply not popular habits in Christianity. Besides, I would consider these cultural differences rather than signs of religious animosity.

each and everyone's cult is honored with a public holiday, instead of a uniform civil code there's a separate one for separate religions, thousands of 'gurus' referred to by the media as 'godmen' have their own cults promising 'salvation' and plying 'traditional medicine'(a racket in its own right), not to mention homeopaths and practitioners of 'vaastu'(Indian Feng-Shui). And all that in the urban areas, rural ones being worst still.
We are secularized to an extent at the govt-level, but not at all as far the society is concernedPublic holidays for only Christian holy days.

And I'm confused by the separate civil codes. You mean that the state offers courts for followers of varying faiths? It seems that the state uses lots of money to cater to various faiths. The government here simply caters to one faith.

My home county was sued by the ACLU about 10 years ago for posting the Ten Commandments on the walls of the courthouse. The case went to the Supreme Court and it was ruled that the Commandments had no place on the walls of a courthouse. However, since the day the court suit was filed, yards everywhere (even in other counties and states) have been littered with signs reading "I SUPPORT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS." I have seen tens of thousands of these signs, yet Christians still tout that they are "being driven out of America." Our secularism is a thin veil over a dangerously religious nation.

As for the religious scam artists, we have 4 or 5 cable channels dedicated to these types. Laying hands is a huge money-maker, but my favorite is the guy who sends out "Prayer Patches" for donations. It's basically a 1"x1" cloth that will supposedly bring the bearer the answer to their prayers. All it needs to work is a $20 donation. ;)

Practice of infanticide, dowry, purdah, and female foeticide(female-specific abortion) continues unabated by even so-called educated people(purdah mostly among Muslims).
Christians frown upon abortion and the murder of children. My guess is that it dates back to the age when the population of Europe was dangerously low. That was only re-emboldened by the Cold War and our drive to out-populate the Communists.

Women fought for their rights on their own here, but their are still many sects that subjugate women. A popular sect here require their women to wear full-length dresses and long hair. Mormon extremists often force their multiple wives to stay at home.

Not to forget the caste-system, which in spite of our massively wasteful affirmative action(called reservation) initiatives, is thriving outside some westernized pockets.
Although we do not have the rules of the caste, our class system is definite and nation-wide. This is what we riot about. This is what we kill each other over. Without competition between religions, we're left to compete for placement on the class chart.
The govt interprets our constitutionally-mandated secularism to be "respect" for every religion(!), and you can imagine what that leads to, especially at the state-level. Several states have anti-conversion laws(mostly to hinder Missionaries), and it is both constitutional and routine to ban books, movies, etc at the slightest whining by this or that cult for having their 'religious sentiments' hurt.Our secularism, in premise, was designed to support no religion. By doing so, they allow one religion to dominate the others. An anti-conversion law sounds nice. I would love to know that wandering door-to-door evangelists would never darken my doorstep. However, our secularism also allows me to tell said evangelists to go to Hell in anyway, shape, or form. Of course, doing so would destroy my public persona, creating difficulty in finding work and preventing any hopes I would have at holding public office. My constitution protects me from legal action, but it has no power in protecting me from other people's religious fervor.

[Michael]

Drunk Guy - good post - I was going to pretty much make the same kind of arguments in reply.

These are simply not popular habits in Christianity.
I think the wearing of crosses is extremely common in the US.

[dilettante]

I believe USA outscores India on most measures of religious culture. USA remarkably is quite close to Iran (as one of the most religiously obsessed countries on the planet).

I think that seems extreme, if only based on demographics.

According to the Pew Forum only 60% of Americans stated that religion (of any flavor) "very important role in their lives." I imagine that number is considerably higher in India, and near 100% in Iran.

And simply by self-identification, just shy of 80% of Americans identify as "Christian" of some flavor, but 16% identify as either atheist or of no religion.

In India, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and Buddhism top the 95% mark, and I think hardly anyone identifies has having no religion. In Iran, Islam alone is the religon of 98% of the population.

The US may be very religous compared to other Western countries, but I think comparisons to India and especially to Iran are hyperbolic.

[Zarquon]

The US may be very religious compared to other Western countries, but I think comparisons to India and especially to Iran are hyperbolic.
that's what I was trying to say.
Also, America's respect for freedom of expression is far greater than that in most countries, especially India; and that we still happen to be the freest country in our part of the planet, speaks volumes about the state in which the majority of humanity lives.
And, I forgot to mention honour killings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings#South_Asia), and a very conservative society(which is correlated with religion if not caused by it).

[Michael]

I meant full-scale rioting, and also, what about the rest of the points?
I consider US racism to be driven by religion. Ergo, US racial violence is comparable there as it is very similar in form.

[Non Sequitur]

I consider US racism to be driven by religion. Ergo, US racial violence is comparable there as it is very similar in form.

hmmm... interesting idea. All of US racism or just some?

[Michael]

hmmm... interesting idea. All of US racism or just some?
I will state the theory as a generalized argument that applies to racism in the USA, not a specific one that applies to every person or all racists in all countries.

I find the correlation between strong racism and strong religion to be remarkably common. My data is entire anecdotal, not data-driven since few seem willing to research this.

I guess the key angle here is the prevailence of religion as part of US culture (much more so than in other western nations that show somewhat lower levels of systemic racism).

The 'key' element of religion that makes me suspicious about it as a motivator of racism is the idea of "us" and "them" that religions tend to foster.

One doesn't have to look very far to see the intensely high level of religion associated with the KKK and the white supremist movement generally.

(the fact that blacks in America show the same very high level of religiousness that is common to American culture appears to be beside the point - the KKK certainly didn't care if the people they lynched were good God-fearing co-religionists).

[Non Sequitur]

I will state the theory as a generalized argument that applies to racism in the USA, not a specific one that applies to every person or all racists in all countries.

I find the correlation between strong racism and strong religion to be remarkably common. My data is entire anecdotal, not data-driven since few seem willing to research this.

I guess the key angle here is the prevailence of religion as part of US culture (much more so than in other western nations that show somewhat lower levels of systemic racism).

The 'key' element of religion that makes me suspicious about it as a motivator of racism is the idea of "us" and "them" that religions tend to foster.

One doesn't have to look very far to see the intensely high level of religion associated with the KKK and the white supremist movement generally.

(the fact that blacks in America show the same very high level of religiousness that is common to American culture appears to be beside the point - the KKK certainly didn't care if the people they lynched were good God-fearing co-religionists).

hmmm, interesting. True some groups take the "us" and "them" concept the wrong way.

on a side note, I hate the supposed "religious nature" of the U.S. It's all so heretical and unfaithful to the Gospel it drives me crazy.

[The Drunk Girl]

I found out from another ticked of student that the preacher started yelling that we were like Al-Qaeda, if not worse. How one could figure that in any form or fashion is beyond me. :ummm:

[Michael]

I must say that this particular thread discussion is one that really makes the US seem so 'foreign' (that is to say, 'different' than home). I've traveled the US many times and have lots of family there - and I can say the same about England. And I must say that it is the 'daily and everywhere' presence of religion in the USA that is so remarkably different than Canada or England (where religion seems to only occur on weekends - and is rarely ever spoken about in public).

In all the time I went to university, and we had an actual divinity school right there on campus, never did I once observe any loudmouthed religious anything. I certainly saw lots of political-style colorful protests involving megaphones and whatnot, and/or groups of students inviting me to join them in Bible-study classes (or yoga or to join some campus club). They'd always be very polite and friendly about it.

Religion really does seem to have a rather low profile around here - even amongst the religious. Though, Canada has always had a high-profile Catholic-Protestant split (generally mirrors the French-English split) so neither religious group has been able to claim majority status (once you count the other religious and non-religious). I think a lack of a dominant majority religious denomination tends to produce generally more religious tolerance (I'm just speculating on this point - I don't have hard data).

[bug]

Ah, yes. We had a group called H.O.M.E (Heterosexuals Organized for a Moral Environment) come to our campus. For those of you with strong stomachs, here's their website (http://www.home60515.com/). They set up a booth and distributed flyers, with such pearls of logic as "penalizing people for truly immoral activity is clearly not discrimination. It’s simply the right thing to do." How this can come into one of the few places a gay student can feel relatively (maybe) safe, a place where people are there to learn and be receptive of new information, and therefore perhaps be a bit more open minded about people who have different lives than them, and these people invade what should be a place for everyone's growth and try to turn it into yet another place that rejects and threatens. The awesome part is that they were supposed to be there two days, and I showed up on day two to protest with the LGBT club to find no one there. It turns out that on the first day, so many turned out to protest that they felt that they were unwelcome and didn't come back. Sweet.

I wrote an article on life as a gay/lesbian student for the school newsletter. I heard so many awful stories in the process of interviewing...like the one time the school sponsered a panel open to the public where people could share their coming out stories--some for the first time. That takes a lot of strength to do. A group of people from a local church came and raised their hands after each person spoke to ask things like "and how do your parents feel about you going to hell?" Now the school is very secretive about their advertisement of such events. What bothers me is that this shit belongs in a redneck bar or in the aforementioned fire and brimstone churches. It just doesn't belong in a college. College is where prejudices are supposed to released in favor of the opening of the mind to new ideas. This stale water regressionist desperate clinging to what is comfortable...it doesn't have a place on a college campus.

(ps-apologies for long absence, the internet has been a commodity that is scarce in my world lately

[Michael]

(ps-apologies for long absence, the internet has been a commodity that is scarce in my world lately
No apologies necessary. Just don't let it happen again! :D