What's going on with all these Vampires?

[Michael]

What's Really Going on With All These Vampires?

From Twilight to True Blood and now The Vampire Diaries, is it vampires that so many American women love... or just gay men?

Forget everything you've read about vampires so far. The current bloodsucking trend, achieving maximum ferocity in November with the release of the sequel to Twilight, isn't about outsiders or immigrants or religion or even AIDS, as critics and bloggers have argued ad nauseam these past few months. There's a much better, simpler, more obvious explanation: Vampires have overwhelmed pop culture because young straight women want to have sex with gay men. Not all young straight women, of course, but many, if not most, of them. Neil Gaiman, sci-fi novelist and geek grandmaster, found out just how many during the shitstorm of pique that covered him from head to toe this past summer after he suggested in an interview that the vampire craze had run its course and should disappear for another twenty to twenty-five years. (Twilight fans took to Twitter in protest.) A foolish hope. The craving for vampire fiction is not a matter of taste but of urges; one does not read or watch it so much as inject it through the eyes, and like any epidemic, it's symptomatic of something much larger: a quiet but profound sexual revolution and a new acceptance of freakiness in mainstream American life.

Source (http://www.esquire.com/features/thousand-words-on-culture/vampires-gay-men-1109)

Well. Um. Sure. I guess. :shrug:

Any fans of the vampire genre here want to weigh in?

[Greendruid]

I should get my wife's opinion on this - I don't touch the vampire novels but her and a female friend of ours devour the things. I'd be surprised if either of them came to this conclusion, but what the hell do I know :)

[Michael]

Yes, do make the inquiry please. I'm in the same boat. I've never read or seen any vampire stuff other than movie Interview with a Vampire a half-dozen years ago.

I must admit that movie was red-lining on the homoeroticism (Brad Pitt and Christian Slater) so I suppose there might be some merit in this thesis! :shrug:

[Greendruid]

I'm not entirely discounting it out of hand. The idea of the unattainable man, who ... also ... bites ... other ... men??? I don't know, I'm stuck at the unattainable man thing and can't seem to find any other threads to pull on here. Gay men sleep in coffins, right?

[Donkey]

Vampires = sex. Vampires appeal to so many dark and carnal aspects and desires of humanity that we find them consistently fascinating. It's being turned on by the forbidden, it's a chill-thrill.

It is no accident that the single most sexual creature in literature is the central figure of the abstinence tale that is Twilight. Twilight, however, is so much more than abstinence tale. It is nothing short of a treatise in misogyny. I find it the most insidious evil that is facing popular culture today.

As such, I rejoice in things like the Vampire Diaries and True Blood. While i have no interest whatsoever in either of them (I think they are pretty bad), the characters have lots of sex and don't play on the themes of an insane, self hating psychotic Mormon woman.

[Evangeline]

I have no interest in any of that Vampire stuff. But I did find another HBO show on On Demand that I like called Angels in America. Anyone else see it?

[Zarquon]

I'd be interested to know if its endemic to the US or is present in Europe as well.
Probably has something to do with the abstinence-only sex-education and America's conservative attitudes to female sexuality.

[SMadsen]

I don't care if it's gay men, vampires or werewolfs as long as it features Kate Beckinsale :love:

[The Drunk Girl]

I don't care if it's gay men, vampires or werewolfs as long as it features Kate Beckinsale :love:

Underworld was alright and I will give you the point of Kate Beckinsale being pretty hot ;) but other than that I would much rather hang myself than waste my brain cells reading or watching Twilight. *insert barfing smiley here*

I thought I was going to explode last year after the first movie came out. All the ditsy sorority girls came bopping in going on...and on...and on about the movie, and what the movie changed and what they left out. These chicks were seriously devestated *insert another barfing smiley*

And, the love story that these simple-minded females get caught up in (lead vampire dude wants to sacrifice himself for her, so while he is gone she and his enemy, the werewolf douche, kind of have a thing)...I mean c'mon, really?! See! I already know too much!!!

I have heard enough at school and work to know enough about the plot(s) to make me have no interest in pursuing this garbage. Nothing can change my mind otherwise...

[Lily]

Young, straight women want to sleep with gay men? What? :ummm:

[Michael]

Young, straight women want to sleep with gay men? What? :ummm:

It is an apparently well known (albeit slightly odd) phenomena. :shrug:

[Donkey]

Underworld was alright and I will give you the point of Kate Beckinsale being pretty hot ;) but other than that I would much rather hang myself than waste my brain cells reading or watching Twilight. *insert barfing smiley here*

I thought I was going to explode last year after the first movie came out. All the ditsy sorority girls came bopping in going on...and on...and on about the movie, and what the movie changed and what they left out. These chicks were seriously devestated *insert another barfing smiley*

And, the love story that these simple-minded females get caught up in (lead vampire dude wants to sacrifice himself for her, so while he is gone she and his enemy, the werewolf douche, kind of have a thing)...I mean c'mon, really?! See! I already know too much!!!

I have heard enough at school and work to know enough about the plot(s) to make me have no interest in pursuing this garbage. Nothing can change my mind otherwise...
Twilight is so much worse than poor literature. It is a (poorly written), no holds barred assault on women.
It is an apparently well known (albeit slightly odd) phenomena. :shrug:
(Stereotypically) handsome, well dressed, respectful, nonthreatening? Sure, who wouldn't want that.

But I don't chalk up vampire obsession to homo-eroticism. I think that eroticism in general plays a large roll.

[Greendruid]

I have a late contribution to this thread finally.

I was out for a fancy dinner with my wife and our friend that I mention, both of which digest vampire novels on a regular basis and look forward to the next installment in several series. They had a very different take on this and basically dismissed the article in the OP as bunk. The connexions made in the article to references to homosexuality are due to the increasing general cultural awareness of homosexual catch-phrases, not because vampires represent gay men that straight women want to have sex with.

Instead, my wife and her friend posit that the vampire represents the ultimate sexual turn-on for the modern, "liberated" woman. They are the primal sexual animal that dominates in the bedroom while allowing the woman the freedom to be a strong character in the everyday. The Twilight series notably does not do this and is not liked by my wife or her friend on that basis alone. The vampire represents a primal state of sexuality in a singular creature that is both unattainable and mythological. What more could a modern woman ask for?

[Michael]

I have a late contribution to this thread finally.

I was out for a fancy dinner with my wife and our friend that I mention, both of which digest vampire novels on a regular basis and look forward to the next installment in several series. They had a very different take on this and basically dismissed the article in the OP as bunk. The connexions made in the article to references to homosexuality are due to the increasing general cultural awareness of homosexual catch-phrases, not because vampires represent gay men that straight women want to have sex with.

Instead, my wife and her friend posit that the vampire represents the ultimate sexual turn-on for the modern, "liberated" woman. They are the primal sexual animal that dominates in the bedroom while allowing the woman the freedom to be a strong character in the everyday. The Twilight series notably does not do this and is not liked by my wife or her friend on that basis alone. The vampire represents a primal state of sexuality in a singular creature that is both unattainable and mythological. What more could a modern woman ask for?
I think your last line reinforces exactly the homosexual angle here.

Male homosexuals are (relatively speaking) in a primal state of sexuality that is both unattainable and mythological to females. That females might deny this outright but support it in argument doesn't surprise me.

[Greendruid]

I think your last line reinforces exactly the homosexual angle here.

Male homosexuals are (relatively speaking) in a primal state of sexuality that is both unattainable and mythological to females. That females might deny this outright but support it in argument doesn't surprise me.

Your drawing necessary conditions from a sufficient argument here Michael. I agree that this description could match homosexual males - especially for other homosexual males. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!

[Michael]

Your drawing necessary conditions from a sufficient argument here Michael. I agree that this description could match homosexual males - especially for other homosexual males. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!
I strongly disagree about the cigar argument. Just ask Bill Clinton and Monica. :lol:

Seriously - nothing is merely just a utilitarian object. Humans do tend to imbue objects and individuals with irrational or mystical meanings far beyond the practical.

As for the homosexual motif of this vampire phenomenum, it is not me who is making this stuff up. I avoid pop-culture crap like the plague. I'm just observing that the theory looks sound and everything everyone says about the topic appears to reinforce that interpretation. Truth is always stranger than fiction in my opinion. :shrug:

[Donkey]

Homosexuals may be (and are, imho) a sort of unattainable, mystical sexual thing for women (sometimes), and I think vampires are as well.

But that doesn't necessarily, in my view, translate into a direct correlation.

[Greendruid]

Homosexuals may be (and are, imho) a sort of unattainable, mystical sexual thing for women (sometimes), and I think vampires are as well.

But that doesn't necessarily, in my view, translate into a direct correlation.

This is the point I was trying to make. Correlation does not equal causation - this is the first lesson about the game of lying called "statistics". And I wasn't accusing you, Michael, of making this stuff up. I am suggesting that the author of the source in the OP is guilty of this charge. I think it is equally probable that he is making this suggestion because that is what he wants to see. We make a reference in pagan circles about coming out of the broom closet - he makes similar reference to a show that does the same with vampires, coming out of the coffin. Does this mean that all pagans are secretly gay? Of course it doesn't. The analogy is transferred sans the identity of the originating source. Nothing more. Writing in gay vampire characters is no more a representation of vampires as gay than it is to include gay characters in other genres. Dumbledore is gay for chrissakes! It doesn't mean all powerful wizard imagery is linked to gay men somehow.

I stand by my wife's assessment (what else would I do?). She's also an anthropologist and is quite aware of these sorts of things, both in popular North American culture and Culture in general across the globe. The author in the OP is missing what I think are the real reasons for his thoughts and given the other articles that Stephen Marche (http://www.esquire.com/search/fast_search?search_query=author:%22Stephen%20March e%22) has written, I'd say that he's a dimestore culture analyst that is best left to the entertainment section of a "men's" magazine that has a huge gay readership.

[The Drunk Girl]

I'm stuck in a flippin' Twilight purgatory here on campus! That freaking movie coming out has all the girls in an uproar! One girl in my class made a homemade shirt!...something about being on "Team Edward" and how he "sparkles." Really?!?!

It's like a damn cult, especially when you tell them you don't read the books or watch the movies. They find it totally amazing that another female doesn't get into that shit, so they pull out their little soapboxes and try to convert me. http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%27http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/does-anyone-know-were-i-can-find-the-video-were-obama-talks-about-using-the-mop-of-socialism-with-t/question-684493/?link=ibaf%27%3E%3Cimg%20src=%27http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/Cheesehead0492/Celena/Puking.jpg%27/%3E%3C/a%3E:wtf:

I'm actually glad for once that I have to work tomorrow so I don't have to be around this shit.

[Michael]

I'm stuck in a flippin' Twilight purgatory here on campus! That freaking movie coming out has all the girls in an uproar! One girl in my class made a homemade shirt!...something about being on "Team Edward" and how he "sparkles." Really?!?!

It's like a damn cult, especially when you tell them you don't read the books or watch the movies. They find it totally amazing that another female doesn't get into that shit, so they pull out their little soapboxes and try to convert me. http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%27http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/does-anyone-know-were-i-can-find-the-video-were-obama-talks-about-using-the-mop-of-socialism-with-t/question-684493/?link=ibaf%27%3E%3Cimg%20src=%27http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/Cheesehead0492/Celena/Puking.jpg%27/%3E%3C/a%3E:wtf:

I'm actually glad for once that I have to work tomorrow so I don't have to be around this shit.
I get the impression that this "Twilight" series thing is nothing more than a Harlequin romance type series (aimed at a slightly younger demographic) - which btw, have the coolest name for any literary genre - 'bodice-rippers'. :lol:

[The Drunk Guy]

'bodice-rippers'. :lol:
'Bodice-ripper' was my nickname in high school.


:nice:

Anyway, I remember watching it when it was new and before they were all "creatures of the night." It was called Dawson's Creek.

[Michael]

'Bodice-ripper' was my nickname in high school.


:nice:
I just got called Aristotle. :shrug:

[The Drunk Girl]

'Bodice-ripper' was my nickname in high school.


:nice:



:rofl: ...glad I know that now.

Sorry babe, but I would have gone for Michael with his nickname back in high school ;)

[Donkey]

I get the impression that this "Twilight" series thing is nothing more than a Harlequin romance type series (aimed at a slightly younger demographic) - which btw, have the coolest name for any literary genre - 'bodice-rippers'. :lol:
Nothing more? I disagree.

It is worse than substanceless, it is teaching girls, and boys for that matter, that women are inferior and should be treated as such.

[Zarquon]

Nothing more? I disagree.

It is worse than substanceless, it is teaching girls, and boys for that matter, that women are inferior and should be treated as such.
Also known as Christianity, lol.

[Donkey]

Also known as Christianity, lol.

Well, certainly her fucked up brand. I don't think for a second that all, or even most, Christians consider women inferior to men, but that can certainly derived from the Bible.

[Zarquon]

Well, certainly her fucked up brand. I don't think for a second that all, or even most, Christians consider women inferior to men, but that can certainly derived from the Bible.
My statement was based on the Gideon's Bible that I have read; though of course I do not pretend that a majority of Xtians hold that view, a lot of them either pick and choose which parts to follow, or have never bothered to read it at all.
Most 'moderate/normal' believers(that I've known) are like that: following the 'good', ignoring or rationalizing the 'unpleasant', and rarely applying their critical faculties to 'sacred' matters or articles of 'faith'. Why it never occurs to them to question the one thing that they ought to question with most confidence(given its socio-political influence), I do not understand. Though I speculate it is because its their source of 'comfort'.

[Zarquon]

‘New Moon’ Shatters Opening Day Record
Claiming the record for the biggest one-day gross, The Twilight Saga: New Moon (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=newmoon.htm) raked in an estimated $72.7 million on approximately 8,500 screens at 4,024 sites. The Dark Knight (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=darkknight.htm) was the previous title holder with $67.2 million on around 9,300 screens at 4,366 sites.Source (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2626&p=l.htm)
WTF?:shrug:

[Margot]

OK, here's my take on Twilight:

I think Stephanie Meyer is a fucking genius.

I said it. There it is.

I mean, her books are total crap.

She marketed her book to a particular audience, and she fucking wrote it for that audience. She wrote her book for adolescent girls, who are insecure and awkward and trying so impossibly hard to fit in and be accepted. Enter Bella, the completely flat, completely perfect canvass to project onto. Bella is beautiful and doesn't know it just like you. Bella is clumsy, but that's what makes her so adorable and human and just like you. And, well, everything else is left to be filled in. If you're clever, Bella can pass as "clever," if you're brave, Bella can be "brave," if you're lovestruck, or are having a crisis of faith, or feel put upon, well, Bella is all of that, too.

And Bella is experiencing first love, much like most of the audience. Or, like the audience wants to be having. Meyer plays up on the fear and anxiety and awesomeness of first love (and first sex). This is either how it will be, how it should be, or how it should have been.

Because, enter Eddie, deeply flawed, the modern Byronic hero. Like any boy in any young girl's life, he has the power to absolutely destroy Bella, but he doesn't. He loves her. He loves her for her mind- for the things that he doesn't understand. For the pieces that Dear Reader has imposed onto Bella.

There he is, loving unconditionally, but in total control. Anyone who kids themselves into believing that any girl between the ages of 9 and 20 feels herself in control is an idiot (I assume it's the same for boys). All relationships (especially that age) are driven by ego, and involve massive amounts of give-and-take. But Eddie, well, he doesn't ask anything of Bella. She can take and take and take and he, and his love, are totally undying.

And, as Shakespeare said:
Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper,
Thy head, thy sovereign; one that cares for thee,
And for thy maintenance commits his body
To painful labour both by sea and land,
To watch the night in storms, the day in cold,
Whilst thou liest warm at home, secure and safe;
And craves no other tribute at thy hands
But love, fair looks and true obedience;
Too little payment for so great a debt.
Such duty as the subject owes the prince
Even such a woman oweth to her husband;
And when she is froward, peevish, sullen, sour,
And not obedient to his honest will,
What is she but a foul contending rebel
And graceless traitor to her loving lord?
-Taming of the Shrew (part of Kate's soliloquy)

Twilight, at least, isn't about wanting to have sex with a gay man, it is about manipulating that piece of the teenage psyche that wants to be wanted. "Understand me," it shouts, and Edward complies.

I think that vampires are the perfect template for manipulation. So dangerous, so passionate, so powerful, and still, so condition-able. Just look at what happened to Dracula when Gary Oldman played him. Want some carnal pleasure? go for it. Want some sensitivity? It is all yours. Want some understanding? Talk to ten thousand years of first hand experience. Just pick the string you want to pull. Gay man lovin' is just one of the many facets.

[Donkey]

I think you're being to kind to Meyer. The message that she gives to young women is just evil. But I do agree that she is tapping into the Vampire genre in an odd way.

Twilight is completely distinct from normal vampire stuff, the vampires are a trojan horse.

[Margot]

I think you're being to kind to Meyer. The message that she gives to young women is just evil. But I do agree that she is tapping into the Vampire genre in an odd way.

Twilight is completely distinct from normal vampire stuff, the vampires are a trojan horse.

Admiration and kindness are two very different things. I admire Hitler's ability to dupe an entire nation and drag a dead economy out of the crypt. I think, and many would agree, that he was the fuckhead supremo. I admire Jesus' parables, I think he should have just shut the fuck up. I admire Putin and his brazen attempts to establish that Cult of Personality, but... OK, that one is a bad example. I'd be kind to him, too, if I could.;);), nudge nudge. I admire Meyer's ability to see the tool and use the tool.

[Michael]

Admiration and kindness are two very different things. I admire Hitler's ability to dupe an entire nation and drag a dead economy out of the crypt. I think, and many would agree, that he was the fuckhead supremo. I admire Jesus' parables, I think he should have just shut the fuck up. I admire Putin and his brazen attempts to establish that Cult of Personality, but... OK, that one is a bad example. I'd be kind to him, too, if I could.;);), nudge nudge. I admire Meyer's ability to see the tool and use the tool.
I don't know who Meyer is, but...

And I do admire Hitler's amazing abilities as well.

But the real name-trolling that gets me here is Putin! :D

I object that Putin is brazenly attempting to establish a Cult of Personality. Rather, that is a long-standing character of Russian autocratic rulership that goes back through Stalin, Lenin and the Czars. That Putin, being the clever political son-of-a-bitch that he is, may seek to leverage that existing political theme is not a failing on his part nor any sign of dementia.

Where Putin is concerned, my ONLY objection to his rule is that he not be followed in office by his son (Prince Putin). Short of that, I'm a huge fan and supporter of Putin.

And just to tie my :offtopic: rambling comments back to the thread topic, I must say that I'm surprised that the media doesn't play with his "Vlad" name for jokes about Putin. :ummm:

[Donkey]

Stephenie Meyer is the psychotic bitch behind Twilight.

[justonemorevoice]

i love vampire stuff. my bookshelf probably has at least 30 vampire books on it.

[cassandrabandra]

I don't know who Meyer is, but...

And I do admire Hitler's amazing abilities as well.

But the real name-trolling that gets me here is Putin! :D

I object that Putin is brazenly attempting to establish a Cult of Personality. Rather, that is a long-standing character of Russian autocratic rulership that goes back through Stalin, Lenin and the Czars. That Putin, being the clever political son-of-a-bitch that he is, may seek to leverage that existing political theme is not a failing on his part nor any sign of dementia.

Where Putin is concerned, my ONLY objection to his rule is that he not be followed in office by his son (Prince Putin). Short of that, I'm a huge fan and supporter of Putin.

And just to tie my :offtopic: rambling comments back to the thread topic, I must say that I'm surprised that the media doesn't play with his "Vlad" name for jokes about Putin. :ummm:

yes, t's a bit of a surprise - although vlad, and vladimir are not quite the same.

Vlad means "ruler" and its not a Russian name. Vladimir, or Volodymir (who ruled old Russe from Kiev - and a variation of the name still used in Ukraine) means ruler of the world, or possibly, even ruler of peace (peaceful ruler) as mir in Russian means both world, and peace. :)

sorry.

not much to do with vampires there ....

[JHC]

Weird coincidence! I just finished starting a new thread off with an anecdote about TB and was looking for something to do. I popped in here and saw Margot at the top of the page and guess what else? Back in the day, folks thought that people with TB were vampires because the symptoms were, (get this): sensitivity to light, pale, cold, clammy skin, and spitting up blood. Also, sleeping all day.

[Margot]

Weird coincidence! I just finished starting a new thread off with an anecdote about TB and was looking for something to do. I popped in here and saw Margot at the top of the page and guess what else? Back in the day, folks thought that people with TB were vampires because the symptoms were, (get this): sensitivity to light, pale, cold, clammy skin, and spitting up blood. Also, sleeping all day.

They also thought that vampires caused TB (they really got off on screwing up causation and correlation and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT). Like, say Harry dies of TB, they bury him, and all goes well for a couple weeks. Then Sally gets sick, and, Goddamnit, it's TB! So, who gave it to her? Harry, of course! Harry from the grave!

They'd go dig Harry up, and somehow or another he was always a vampire (signs included odd smells [like, odder than a decaying Billy Crystal?], millet/tubercles around the mouth, pale skin, a look of being well fed, etc.) stuff oddly resembling a regular dead corpse.

Cool story, bro.

[JHC]

I want to be a vampire so I can sleep all day and not be bothered.
It looks like a hell of a good time in True Blood: kicking ass, party til the sun comes up, drink blood...

[Margot]

I want to be a vampire so I can sleep all day and not be bothered.
It looks like a hell of a good time in True Blood: kicking ass, party til the sun comes up, drink blood...

I want you to stop being my mom now, kthxbai. :p