Swine flu vaccine: where are you in the line?

[Lily]

The CDC has just issued an advisory as to who should receive the first batch of Swine flu vaccine, if it is ready this fall. Where are you in that line?

First are pregnant women, then caregivers of children under six months of age. Next, health care and emergency service workers, then people age six to 24 years. Down the list, those age 25-64 with underlying medical conditions, then healthy people age 25 to 64 and last in line are those folks 65 and older.

Interesting, and quite a switch from the normal flu vaccine protocol.

Here's the story: SwineFlu (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/07/cdc_advisors_reveal_priority_l.html)

We're not testing anymore in our ER, by the way. The guidelines now are very strict. Only sentinel testing sites and Health Depts. are gathering samples and sending them off to the state labs. The criteria for testing people have also become more narrow. Of course, patients are still demanding Swine Flu tests and they are, let's say, less than accepting of these new guidelines. One of our PAs became a bit irate last night when our Lab informed her they would not send off the sample she collected from a patient.

[dilettante]

The CDC has just issued an advisory as to who should receive the first batch of Swine flu vaccine, if it is ready this fall. Where are you in that line?

First are pregnant women, then caregivers of children under six months of age. Next, health care and emergency service workers, then people age six to 24 years. Down the list, those age 25-64 with underlying medical conditions, then healthy people age 25 to 64 and last in line are those folks 65 and older.

Interesting, and quite a switch from the normal flu vaccine protocol.


How is it different from the normal flu vaccine protocol?

[Michael]

I avoid flu vaccines like the plague and would not take that vaccine even if it was offered to me.

The only two times I tried a 'flu vaccine' I immediately got the worst case of flu I've ever experienced (several weeks durations). Normally, I never suffer for more than 24 hours with anything like that.

I prefer to rely upon my own immune system. It seems to work very well on its own. :)

[drgoodtrips]

I avoid flu vaccines like the plague and would not take that vaccine even if it was offered to me.

The only two times I tried a 'flu vaccine' I immediately got the worst case of flu I've ever experienced (several weeks durations). Normally, I never suffer for more than 24 hours with anything like that.

I prefer to rely upon my own immune system. It seems to work very well on its own. :)

That mirrors my experience exactly. I almost never get sick. One of the only times in my life that I've had the flu it was within days of getting the flu vaccine. I've gotten neither the vaccine nor the flu since.

And, my immune system ought to be stronger than ever this year, as I stopped smoking a few weeks ago.

[Michael]

And, my immune system ought to be stronger than ever this year, as I stopped smoking a few weeks ago.

At my company, non-smokers average more than DOUBLE the number of sick-days per year than the smokers.

Our smoking employees average under 3 sick days per year. Our non-smoking employees average over 7 sick days per year.

This data EXCLUDES 'primary parents with children' who are all in the 12-20 sick days per year category (and are all non-smokers).

[drgoodtrips]

At my company, non-smokers average more than DOUBLE the number of sick-days per year than the smokers.

Our smoking employees average under 3 sick days per year. Our non-smoking employees average over 7 sick days per year.

This data EXCLUDES 'primary parents with children' who are all in the 12-20 sick days per year category (and are all non-smokers).

Statistical anomaly? From what I understand, smoking suppresses the immune system's functioning to some degree. If you have evidence to the contrary, in general, I'd be interested to see it. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of propaganda/distortion surrounding the subject of cigarette smoking.

[Michael]

Statistical anomaly? From what I understand, smoking suppresses the immune system's functioning to some degree. If you have evidence to the contrary, in general, I'd be interested to see it. It seems to me that there is an awful lot of propaganda/distortion surrounding the subject of cigarette smoking.

I agree about the high level propaganda/distortion.

Non-statistical/scientific since the data set is less than 100.

[Greendruid]

This flu is killing no more people than a regular flu. Those in the general population hear the word "pandemic" and they start to panic. The vaccine makers are taking the governments along for the ride because the politicians are about as stupid as the rest of the population. I study epidemics in history - this is one of my specialities. We simply haven't seen this variation of the flu before. I'd be willing to bet that many of you are unaware of other diseases that are currently in a classification of pandemic (and please don't consult wikipedia on these, it's just full of holes):

- cholera
- measles
- tuberculosis
- HIV/AIDS

Anyone running out to update their measles vaccine? How about getting tested for TB? Next time you're in a movie theatre, look at the person to your left, then to your right. One of the three of you has inactive TB in your body, especially if you fit into the broad category of "caucasian".

Flu vaccines, for the healthy, are probably more dangerous than ingesting pesticides on a regular basis. We are causing more problems than fixing them, especially in countries that have socialised medicine where people show up in ERs to treat their mild cold symptoms.

[Americano]

I avoid flu vaccines like the plague and would not take that vaccine even if it was offered to me.

The only two times I tried a 'flu vaccine' I immediately got the worst case of flu I've ever experienced (several weeks durations). Normally, I never suffer for more than 24 hours with anything like that.

I prefer to rely upon my own immune system. It seems to work very well on its own. :)

Exact same experience and avoidance.

[The Drunk Girl]

At my job we are offered for a "small" fee to get a flu vaccination every year and TB shots are mandatory. I tend to pass on the flu vaccination because I'm a tight ass and I'll take my chances. I'm around so much shit when I'm at work, I think the flu is the least of my concerns.

Since moving out from living with my parents and siblings (one is 9, the other 11) I tend to only end up getting "sick" once a year, minus the occasional cold. This year, I did get hit up pretty hard: the flu, sinusitis, and bronchitis all at once.

[Lily]

How is it different from the normal flu vaccine protocol?

Normal flu vaccines are not given to children, generally. The elderly are usually first in line, not last. Healthly individuals, unless they are are caretakers of the elderly are not generally encouraged to take the regular flu vaccine, so this is completely opposite to the normal protocol.

I've been taking the flu vaccine regularly for the past 10 years or so since I've been in nursing. The health nurse just comes into the ER each year and hits us up while we're working. I've never had a bad reaction. I did get the flu in 2007, but I think I picked it up in Europe (a different strain than what the vaccine covered that year.) I got pretty sick with it and then developed a secondary bronchitis, sinusitis and a perforated TM from the plane ride home. That wasn't fun.

[Michael]

Btw, a big :thumbsup: for the thread title here!

I seriously object to the way the media and governments are trying to get this one renamed as H1N1 in popular reference in order to protect the image of the industrial-pork-farming industry that is in fact, the origin of Swine Flu in the first place!

[Baron Von Esslingen]

I'm not in the damn line. Never had a swine flu shot and ain't getting one now. Never had the flu either. Ever.

[Zarquon]

nope, not suffering from any symptoms, except a persistent cold/mild sneezing.

[Lily]

I have no idea how true this is or how the CDC has arrived at these stats, but here it is: worst case scenario is that 50% of Americans will contract the Swine flu this season. As many as 90,000 will die, which is about double the deaths from the normal flu. Some 1.8 million people will be admitted to hospitals, many taking up all of the ICU beds.

Now, we're already seeing people coming into the ER saying they have Swine Flu (yes, self-diagnosis is persistent these days). With my patients alone, I've had one person out of perhaps 20 in the past month test positive for the Influence A virus, an indicator of Swine Flu. That person had already had symptoms for a few days, so there was no prescribed treatment. Well, that didn't go over too well. Hell, people demand antibiotics for the simple cold; telling them there is no majic pill for the flu is going to make a whole lot of people absolutely apoplectic. They just can't believe they'll be sick for a week to ten days. What do you mean? I have to go to work! You have to give me something! Don't people die from this? Well, yes people do and sorry, there's nothing to give you.

[Zarquon]

What do you mean? I have to go to work! You have to give me something! Don't people die from this? Well, yes people do and sorry, there's nothing to give you.
How about a good kick up the backside?:D

[Lily]

How about a good kick up the backside?:D


Unfortunately, the hospital administration frowns on such action. We are told to treat the patients as if they are our hotel guests.

Uh huh.

[Margot]

I'm actually thinking about getting the vaccine. I mean, I spend all my time on a college campus filled with nose-pickers, dude-bros and, well, skank-ass-ho's. I'm not too concerned about myself, but, well, we all know that my madre is a walking example of the antithesis of a normal, healthy person. Also, I'd like my sister to have the shot because, well, she spends all of her time in high school and the damn virus is already cropping up in high schools down here again.

Plus, and I know this is going to sound touchy-feely, sappy, retarded, but if I can be one less link in the pass-it-on chain I'll feel much better about myself. I'm not ok with being complacent with a virus that kills little kids. Seven years old was the happiest time of my life, and kids that age are dying. If I wind up getting sick from my shot, well, then, I know that it's Swine Flu. If I don't get sick, well, win for me!

[Greendruid]

Just to throw a wrench into your noble efforts, you can take a vaccine, catch the disease and be asymptomatic because you took the vaccine, then pass it on to a little kid anyway and he/she could still die. There are a lot of factors in disease transmission - I only know because I model them. AIDS is the number one, all time, complex disease for modelling.

[Lily]

Just to throw a wrench into your noble efforts, you can take a vaccine, catch the disease and be asymptomatic because you took the vaccine, then pass it on to a little kid anyway and he/she could still die. There are a lot of factors in disease transmission - I only know because I model them. AIDS is the number one, all time, complex disease for modelling.

So true. Just a small example of disease transmission is the increasing number of staph/MRSA infections we are seeing in the community. I would bet if you swabbed hospital workers a high percentage of them would be carriers, as the bacteria is colonized in the nose. We may not be symptomatic, but we can still transmit the bacteria. Now, overlay that fact on millions of uneducated individual carriers who come in contact with family members, people at the gym, other school children, other patients in the hospital, etc., and it's no wonder we've seen an increase in the incidence of MRSA-related illnesses.

[Margot]

Just to throw a wrench into your noble efforts, you can take a vaccine, catch the disease and be asymptomatic because you took the vaccine, then pass it on to a little kid anyway and he/she could still die. There are a lot of factors in disease transmission - I only know because I model them. AIDS is the number one, all time, complex disease for modelling.

I thought that as soon as I hit "post" and then felt like an ass. Then I rolled over and went to sleep. My noble efforts are very limited.

[Americano]

Half the UK GPs aren't going to take the vaccine:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208716/Half-GPs-refuse-swine-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html

[Lily]

Well, the shit has hit the proverbial fan, at least in my part of the world. After four days off, I went back to work yesterday and we were packed to the rafters with people with flu symptoms. We had at least a dozen test positive for the Influenza Type A virus. Considering our lab told one of the docs our testing is sensitive to around 10%, I'm guessing we missed the majority who truly were positive. That's a little scary. These patients were overwhemingly school age kids and young adults who presented with fevers, sore throats, cough, congestion and headache.

Schools here have gone totally nuts. If a child complains of any illness, or anyone in the school suspects a child is ill, they are sending them home and, the kids can't return without being cleared by a doctor. Primary care physicians are sending them elsewhere because they're already overbooked, so they're coming to the ER. We saw families with all kids being sent home, the rationale being if one child is sick, all children are likely exposed to whatever.

Then we had a second group of people who presented with nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Again, the great majority young adults. After testing, the scans and bloodwork were normal, which pointed to some kind of gastritis or viral bug. The docs were not testing these people for Influenza A, but these symptoms can also be manifestations of flu.

This is September, folks. Vaccines are not even due for another month. If this keeps up, it's going to be a very long winter for the flu in America.

[Margot]

On Monday the bleach blond PR rep for the local health department came to lecture one of my classes on the importance of the vaccine. She swore up and down ten times that if one were to get the vaccine there would be absolutely no way on earth that he or she could contract, pass along, or otherwise further the disease.

She also insisted that EVERYONE get the vaccine, and when I asked about people with autoimmune diseases or suppressed immune systems she said "ABSOLUTELY! They are definitely in our target groups!"
"...So you suggest giving people with weakened immune systems a live virus?"
"It would be so much worse if they got the regular flu."
"You're telling these people to insist on something that can be harmful?"
"Well, really, they should be on a case by case basis. I recommend those people speaking with their doctors."
"That's the first time you've said that."
It went on and on.

Needless to say, she killed my desire to get the vaccine. Smooth.

[Margot]

Well, the shit has hit the proverbial fan, at least in my part of the world. After four days off, I went back to work yesterday and we were packed to the rafters with people with flu symptoms. We had at least a dozen test positive for the Influenza Type A virus. Considering our lab told one of the docs our testing is sensitive to around 10%, I'm guessing we missed the majority who truly were positive. That's a little scary. These patients were overwhemingly school age kids and young adults who presented with fevers, sore throats, cough, congestion and headache.

Schools here have gone totally nuts. If a child complains of any illness, or anyone in the school suspects a child is ill, they are sending them home and, the kids can't return without being cleared by a doctor. Primary care physicians are sending them elsewhere because they're already overbooked, so they're coming to the ER. We saw families with all kids being sent home, the rationale being if one child is sick, all children are likely exposed to whatever.

Then we had a second group of people who presented with nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Again, the great majority young adults. After testing, the scans and bloodwork were normal, which pointed to some kind of gastritis or viral bug. The docs were not testing these people for Influenza A, but these symptoms can also be manifestations of flu.

This is September, folks. Vaccines are not even due for another month. If this keeps up, it's going to be a very long winter for the flu in America.

Two years, they're saying. Two years. I feel so sorry for you.

[Lily]

Day two. Even more positive Influenza A results, and nearly all of them school age children. Our lab was completely out of flu tests for the first 5 hours of my shift. And to make matters worse, none of the pharmacies in our area have supplies of Tamiflu and don't expect more in stock until at least Friday, perhaps not until after the holiday weekend.

I could see panic in parent's eyes, and the questions... You mean my child has the Swine Flu? Yes, a positive Influenza A presumes a 99% positive for the H1N1 or Swine Flu. They have to be out of school for seven days? But, I have to work... Yes, seven days. And keep them home, away from anyone else. No daycare. Could my other kids get sick? Can I? Yes. When are they contagious? How long? A day before they exhibit symptoms up to ten days after. Well, can't you give them some antibiotics? No, this is a virus. There are antivirals which may lessen symptoms, but there is no cure. But, don't people die from this? Yes, people have died.

And then a silent pause, then... I don't understand. What are you going to do for my child?

When I left work last night at midnight, they were still coming in.

[Lily]

Update on the march of the Swine Flu... we saw 44 cases yesterday in the ER in a 12-hour period. When I left at midnight, the ER was completely full, we had ambulances four-deep in que outside and 14 patients in the waiting room. I've never seen the ER this busy in the four years I've worked there. We ran out of masks, tissues, linens and tylenol. If this is happening in our small ER in a semi-rural area, I can only imagine what the big city ERs are seeing.

[Michael]

Update on the march of the Swine Flu... we saw 44 cases yesterday in the ER in a 12-hour period. When I left at midnight, the ER was completely full, we had ambulances four-deep in que outside and 14 patients in the waiting room. I've never seen the ER this busy in the four years I've worked there. We ran out of masks, tissues, linens and tylenol. If this is happening in our small ER in a semi-rural area, I can only imagine what the big city ERs are seeing.
:eek:

That sounds crazy. I haven't heard a word of anything up here yet - though our flu season 'prime time' seems to usually to be in October/November.

[Zarquon]

winter's coming, it will get worse(more virulence in less sunlight/heat).

[Greendruid]

winter's coming, it will get worse(more virulence in less sunlight/heat).

There is no more virulence to a virus or other pathogen in less sunlight or heat that I'm aware of. As winter approaches, people gather inside more and come into interpersonal contact more, or simply are breathing the same air in the case of the pathogens with the highest rates of transmission. This increases the likelihood of transmission and thus the likelihood of infection. Add to this the fact that coming inside from the cold outside has a tendency to cause some peoples' noses to run (those of us blessed with larger than average schnozes anyway) and you have another factor increasing the likelihood of transmission via mucous and sputum.

[Greendruid]

Update on the march of the Swine Flu... we saw 44 cases yesterday in the ER in a 12-hour period. When I left at midnight, the ER was completely full, we had ambulances four-deep in que outside and 14 patients in the waiting room. I've never seen the ER this busy in the four years I've worked there. We ran out of masks, tissues, linens and tylenol. If this is happening in our small ER in a semi-rural area, I can only imagine what the big city ERs are seeing.

Is this 44 lab-confirmed cases or is this 44 people coming in with symptoms of unknown aetiology? Either way, what is the approximate service population of the area for the hospital? We need some perspective here on your numbers.

[Michael]

...We need some perspective here on your numbers.
Bemused giggles. Who's this "we"? :lol:

[Lily]

Is this 44 lab-confirmed cases or is this 44 people coming in with symptoms of unknown aetiology? Either way, what is the approximate service population of the area for the hospital? We need some perspective here on your numbers.

We've pretty much stopped swabbing people unless they are admitted or have other comorbidities, are very young, very old or are pregnant. The test is somewhere between 30%-70% accurate according to the CDC (our lab says 15%-20%).

Our ER on average sees about 70 patients per 24-hours this time of year. Now, we're averaging over 100 (a number that is more like mid-January at the peak of Snowbird season). If I had to guess, I'd say around 50% of those are coming in with flu-like symptoms. Yesterday was slower than the day before (thank you ER gods!). I personally saw 28 patients. All but four of them presented with symptoms of the flu and were diagnosed with "viral syndrome" aka the flu.

Yes, who is this "we?" lol

[Americano]

Our cleaning lady has two kids in school, she's ecstatic about them being back in school and I'm thinking 'great, now you'll bring me whatever plague is going around in the school system'. Shouldn't be too risky as I'm banned from the house from 10am to 4pm when Friday cleaning is underway.

[Lily]

Well, I have the flu. No, I didn't get tested. I've seen enough of this stuff in the past month or so to know what it is and how to treat it. I'm just surprised it took this long for me to catch it.

It started last night with a dry cough that hurts like a SOB in the back of my throat. Then today the fever started, which I'm controlling with alternating doses of Tylenol and Ibuprofen every four hours. My body aches and I have an overwhelming lack of energy. All I want to do is sleep.

I'm going back to the couch now. Bleh.

[Michael]

Well, I have the flu. No, I didn't get tested. I've seen enough of this stuff in the past month or so to know what it is and how to treat it. I'm just surprised it took this long for me to catch it.

It started last night with a dry cough that hurts like a SOB in the back of my throat. Then today the fever started, which I'm controlling with alternating doses of Tylenol and Ibuprofen every four hours. My body aches and I have an overwhelming lack of energy. All I want to do is sleep.

I'm going back to the couch now. Bleh.


Sorry to hear you are not well! :sad:

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Here, have a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head to help cheer you up! :)

http://www.latos.net/pancake/bunny_pancake%5B1%5D.jpg

[The Drunk Guy]

Sorry to hear you are not well! :sad:

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Here, have a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head to help cheer you up! :)

http://www.latos.net/pancake/bunny_pancake%5B1%5D.jpg
That's what I had for breakfast this morning!

[Americano]

That's what I had for breakfast this morning!

Both?

[Americano]

Well, I have the flu. No, I didn't get tested. I've seen enough of this stuff in the past month or so to know what it is and how to treat it. I'm just surprised it took this long for me to catch it.

It started last night with a dry cough that hurts like a SOB in the back of my throat. Then today the fever started, which I'm controlling with alternating doses of Tylenol and Ibuprofen every four hours. My body aches and I have an overwhelming lack of energy. All I want to do is sleep.

I'm going back to the couch now. Bleh.

I just read our local school district is experiencing a 20% decline in attendance due to seasonal flu. No reports of Swine Flu but in a poor, rural county I'm sure the one hospital ER is slammed.

[Lily]

Sorry to hear you are not well! :sad:

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Here, have a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head to help cheer you up! :)



Thank you, Michael. That picture made me feel a lot better. Really, it did. lol My fever is better today, but the dry cough lingers and the exhaustion is still with me. I've called off work.

I just read our local school district is experiencing a 20% decline in attendance due to seasonal flu. No reports of Swine Flu but in a poor, rural county I'm sure the one hospital ER is slammed.

All flu right now is Swine Flu. The "seasonal flu" season doesn't begin for another couple of months. According to the CDC, 99% of all subtyped Influenza A reported is H1N1 or Swine Flu. This flu is widespread in many states, including the entire Southeast U.S. The flu that doesn't test positive for Influenza A (the test is accurate somewhere between 10%-70% depending on the medium used and the lab and, many hospitals have quit testing altogether), is labeled "ILI" or Influenza-like illness. We treat all flu-like illnesses in the same manner.

[Arkady]

I avoid flu vaccines like the plague and would not take that vaccine even if it was offered to me.

The only two times I tried a 'flu vaccine' I immediately got the worst case of flu I've ever experienced (several weeks durations). Normally, I never suffer for more than 24 hours with anything like that.

I prefer to rely upon my own immune system. It seems to work very well on its own. :)

I have had the flu vaccine twice and I come down with a really bad cold days after. But it's not all bad - I usually come down with a cold about five to six times a year. I am one of those people who get sick frequently. With the flu vaccine, although I get ill, I find I don't have a cold for most of the year, so if given the choice, I'd opt for the vaccine.

[The Drunk Guy]

Both?Yes, just like in the photo.

Thank you, Michael. That picture made me feel a lot better. Really, it did. lol My fever is better today, but the dry cough lingers and the exhaustion is still with me. I've called off work.




I hear that Texan nurses are getting bonuses just to work the flu outbreak. You should point that out to your DON. ;)

[The Drunk Girl]

I think I'm going to be hitting up the school clinic later today...

I have had a cold the past three days and thought it was getting better, but all last night I coughed, my nose ran, and my chest hurts. I have felt tired, but just chalked it up to the cold. Now, I don't know. I'm really not too worried about the flu, I'm just worried about getting an upper respiratory infection or bronchitis- both of which I'm highly susceptible to.

All I know is I feel like shit and I have a Micro exam at 12:30. :sad:

[Michael]

Not a word of Swine Flu around here yet. Lots of public awareness, with the media talking about it all the time, but nothing otherwise.

If any cases pop up around here, I pity the poor bastard who's going to get a dozen tv cameras and journalists descend upon them - so desperate they are for some story on this issue... :shrug:

[Zarquon]

let winter come.

[Americano]

Thank you, Michael. That picture made me feel a lot better. Really, it did. lol My fever is better today, but the dry cough lingers and the exhaustion is still with me. I've called off work.



All flu right now is Swine Flu. The "seasonal flu" season doesn't begin for another couple of months. According to the CDC, 99% of all subtyped Influenza A reported is H1N1 or Swine Flu. This flu is widespread in many states, including the entire Southeast U.S. The flu that doesn't test positive for Influenza A (the test is accurate somewhere between 10%-70% depending on the medium used and the lab and, many hospitals have quit testing altogether), is labeled "ILI" or Influenza-like illness. We treat all flu-like illnesses in the same manner.

It seems widespread here with a 20% school absence rate. They just aren't identifying it as Swine Flu. Perhaps because we're so rural?

[Lily]

I think I'm going to be hitting up the school clinic later today...

I have had a cold the past three days and thought it was getting better, but all last night I coughed, my nose ran, and my chest hurts. I have felt tired, but just chalked it up to the cold. Now, I don't know. I'm really not too worried about the flu, I'm just worried about getting an upper respiratory infection or bronchitis- both of which I'm highly susceptible to.

All I know is I feel like shit and I have a Micro exam at 12:30. :sad:

Just to be clear, an "upper respiratory infection" is a catch-all diagnosis that can include everything from the common cold to bronchitis to to the flu. It can include a bacterial infection like strep throat, but is mostly limited to viral infections which do not respond to antibiotics. Antibiotics only treat bacterial infections. About 90% of bronchitis is also viral and doesn't respond to antibiotics. Physicians have been over-prescribing antibiotics to patients for decades and as a result, we've seen a whole bunch of infections that have become resistant to common antibiotic treatment.

If you have trouble breathing or a high temperature you cannot control with antipyretics, by all means seek medical attention. I hope you feel better soon. :)

[Lily]

It seems widespread here with a 20% school absence rate. They just aren't identifying it as Swine Flu. Perhaps because we're so rural?

Who knows? Except for Health Depts. and Sentinel Testing Centers (certain hospitals, mostly in urban areas), state labs haven't been testing for H1N1 for at least two months now. Even in our hospital, some practioners don't even test for Influenza A, but use clinical judgment instead. Most of the people I'm seeing with the flu are going home with a diagnosis of URI (Upper Respiratory Infection) or Viral Syndrome. Some practioners are prescribing antibiotics, which do no good; others are not. Some are telling patients they have the flu; others are not.

[Americano]

Who knows? Except for Health Depts. and Sentinel Testing Centers (certain hospitals, mostly in urban areas), state labs haven't been testing for H1N1 for at least two months now. Even in our hospital, some practioners don't even test for Influenza A, but use clinical judgment instead. Most of the people I'm seeing with the flu are going home with a diagnosis of URI (Upper Respiratory Infection) or Viral Syndrome. Some practioners are prescribing antibiotics, which do no good; others are not. Some are telling patients they have the flu; others are not.

I wonder how much of the antibiotics prescribed are to shut patients up (past stories from GPs who prescribe antibiotics to children with head colds to sate the screaming working mothers).

[Lasher]

let winter come.
Influenza isn't caused by cold weather, it is caused by viruses.

[Lasher]

I wonder how much of the antibiotics prescribed are to shut patients up (past stories from GPs who prescribe antibiotics to children with head colds to sate the screaming working mothers).
"Sate?" Hmmmm!

[Lily]

I wonder how much of the antibiotics prescribed are to shut patients up (past stories from GPs who prescribe antibiotics to children with head colds to sate the screaming working mothers).

From experience, I'd say a very large percentage. Mom doesn't want to hear that it's a virus and will run its course. She wants her child fixed. It's a drive-through mentality out there. They want something for thier money.

[drgoodtrips]

From experience, I'd say a very large percentage. Mom doesn't want to hear that it's a virus and will run its course. She wants her child fixed. It's a drive-through mentality out there. They want something for thier money.

Out of curiosity, why isn't that considered unethical by hospital staff? Essentially, they're giving the patient a placebo, but that builds the general immunity of bacteria to antibiotics, if my understanding is correct.

[Americano]

From experience, I'd say a very large percentage. Mom doesn't want to hear that it's a virus and will run its course. She wants her child fixed. It's a drive-through mentality out there. They want something for thier money.

I was told the 'don't expect miracles X number of days before it takes affect but this will cure it' statement (runs its course) has long been an effective pacifier, even when its true. The physicians I know on a personal basis (two) are retired and talk freely in friendly surroundings.

[Greendruid]

Influenza isn't caused by cold weather, it is caused by viruses.

Absolutely. However, the colder weather causes two subsequent factors to occur, or rather to increase, that encourage the spread of all viruses and bacteria:

1) Increased mucous flow, thus runny noses when going from cold to hot surroundings.
2) Increased interpersonal contact due to people remaining inside in closer quarters for longer periods of time.

These are the reasons why the colloquial belief in the winter weather producing higher rates of infection is right for the wrong reasons.

[Zarquon]

Influenza isn't caused by cold weather, it is caused by viruses.
l know that, i was implying that it(viruses in general) gets more virulent in winter.

[Lily]

Out of curiosity, why isn't that considered unethical by hospital staff? Essentially, they're giving the patient a placebo, but that builds the general immunity of bacteria to antibiotics, if my understanding is correct.

I consider it unethical. I consider it harmful. It's not a placebo, it's an unecessary medication with side effects. But, I'm not the doctor. I do as much as education as I can with patients about antibiotic use, but when a doctor prescribes an antibiotic, if I told the patient not to take it, or refused to administer it, I wouldn't have a job. Worse, I could be penalized for overstepping my scope of practice. Thankfully, the younger doctors and practioners get it and fewer and fewer of them are needlessly prescribing abxs, instead taking the time (and the brunt of the patients' anger and/or frustration) to explain why they are not needed.

[Lily]

I was told the 'don't expect miracles X number of days before it takes affect but this will cure it' statement (runs its course) has long been an effective pacifier, even when its true. The physicians I know on a personal basis (two) are retired and talk freely in friendly surroundings.

Most antibiotics are prescribed for a 7- to 10-day course of treatment, the same amount of time it takes for most viruses to resolve. So, of course, patients believe the antibiotics "cured" the illness when they didn't. This only perpetuates the problem.

[drgoodtrips]

I consider it unethical. I consider it harmful. It's not a placebo, it's an unecessary medication with side effects. But, I'm not the doctor. I do as much as education as I can with patients about antibiotic use, but when a doctor prescribes an antibiotic, if I told the patient not to take it, or refused to administer it, I wouldn't have a job. Worse, I could be penalized for overstepping my scope of practice. Thankfully, the younger doctors and practioners get it and fewer and fewer of them are needlessly prescribing abxs, instead taking the time (and the brunt of the patients' anger and/or frustration) to explain why they are not needed.

Well, it's good to hear that the trend is changing. Kudos to you and the younger doctors.

[The Drunk Girl]

When I got to the school clinic this morning they slapped a mask on me. I found this somewhat funny, but I understood why they did it. And, of course they went through all the damn questions that are related to the flu and "checked" me out for it, even though I told them what I really had came in for. Oh well...I got a prescription for Tessalon, a Reli-On inhaler, and Bactrim. Hopefully, I'll start feeling better pretty soon.

EKU is pretty hard-core about this whole H1N1 stuff. I have received TWO letters in the mail about the precautions they are taking:

-They are going to isolate any on-campus students who happen to get the flu. These students will be placed in empty apartments on campus, where they will have staff that watch over them and administer meds, bring them their meals, homework, etc.
-Germicidal wipes for all the computer labs---with notes attached advising students to clean off the keyboard before using
-1,200 bottles of hand sanitizer have been purchased and placed throughout campus
-Forehead temperature strips for the resident halls

And to top it off I got sent home from my Micro lab last night for coughing :lol:

[Americano]

Most antibiotics are prescribed for a 7- to 10-day course of treatment, the same amount of time it takes for most viruses to resolve. So, of course, patients believe the antibiotics "cured" the illness when they didn't. This only perpetuates the problem.

I guess it would depend on a physician's tolerance level for patients with immediate gratification demands.

[Lily]

When I got to the school clinic this morning they slapped a mask on me. I found this somewhat funny, but I understood why they did it. And, of course they went through all the damn questions that are related to the flu and "checked" me out for it, even though I told them what I really had came in for. Oh well...I got a prescription for Tessalon, a Reli-On inhaler, and Bactrim. Hopefully, I'll start feeling better pretty soon.

EKU is pretty hard-core about this whole H1N1 stuff. I have received TWO letters in the mail about the precautions they are taking:

-They are going to isolate any on-campus students who happen to get the flu. These students will be placed in empty apartments on campus, where they will have staff that watch over them and administer meds, bring them their meals, homework, etc.
-Germicidal wipes for all the computer labs---with notes attached advising students to clean off the keyboard before using
-1,200 bottles of hand sanitizer have been purchased and placed throughout campus
-Forehead temperature strips for the resident halls

And to top it off I got sent home from my Micro lab last night for coughing :lol:

Do you have a productive cough? Are you coughing up anything?

[The Drunk Girl]

Do you have a productive cough? Are you coughing up anything?

All of yesterday: no. It was that horrible, dry cough that rattles your chest on the insides. But the days prior, yes and when I cough now it is all that drainage that's been in there. (I'm sure everyone else is going to love reading this).

Yesterday was weird though. I would go a few hours and feel horrible and then I would go a few and feel fine. But, when I started to feel bad it just hit me out of nowhere. Blame it on the Advil Cold and Sinus?

Are you feeling any better? :)

[Lasher]

Absolutely. However, the colder weather causes two subsequent factors to occur, or rather to increase, that encourage the spread of all viruses and bacteria:

1) Increased mucous flow, thus runny noses when going from cold to hot surroundings.
2) Increased interpersonal contact due to people remaining inside in closer quarters for longer periods of time.

These are the reasons why the colloquial belief in the winter weather producing higher rates of infection is right for the wrong reasons.
Then why don't prostitutes have colds and flu all year long?

[Lasher]

I consider it unethical. I consider it harmful. It's not a placebo, it's an unecessary medication with side effects. But, I'm not the doctor. I do as much as education as I can with patients about antibiotic use, but when a doctor prescribes an antibiotic, if I told the patient not to take it, or refused to administer it, I wouldn't have a job. Worse, I could be penalized for overstepping my scope of practice. Thankfully, the younger doctors and practioners get it and fewer and fewer of them are needlessly prescribing abxs, instead taking the time (and the brunt of the patients' anger and/or frustration) to explain why they are not needed.
It's a good thing we have vigilant nurses like you who are so much more knowledgeable than those doctors.

[Lasher]

When I got to the school clinic this morning they slapped a mask on me. I found this somewhat funny, but I understood why they did it. And, of course they went through all the damn questions that are related to the flu and "checked" me out for it, even though I told them what I really had came(sic) in for. Oh well...I got a prescription for Tessalon, a Reli-On inhaler, and Bactrim. Hopefully, I'll start feeling better pretty soon.

EKU is pretty hard-core about this whole H1N1 stuff. I have received TWO letters in the mail about the precautions they are taking:

-They are going to isolate any on-campus students who happen to get the flu. These students will be placed in empty apartments on campus, where they will have staff that watch over them and administer meds, bring them their meals, homework, etc.
-Germicidal wipes for all the computer labs---with notes attached advising students to clean off the keyboard before using
-1,200 bottles of hand sanitizer have been purchased and placed throughout campus
-Forehead temperature strips for the resident halls

And to top it off I got sent home from my Micro lab last night for coughing :lol:
"... come in for."

[drgoodtrips]

You forgot to mention that " :lol: " is misspelled.

[Lasher]

You forgot to mention that " :lol: " is misspelled.
No, it is correct.

[drgoodtrips]

How? It isn't a word.

[Lasher]

How? It isn't a word.
The same way it is allegedly misspelled, my friend.

[Lily]

All of yesterday: no. It was that horrible, dry cough that rattles your chest on the insides. But the days prior, yes and when I cough now it is all that drainage that's been in there. (I'm sure everyone else is going to love reading this).

Yesterday was weird though. I would go a few hours and feel horrible and then I would go a few and feel fine. But, when I started to feel bad it just hit me out of nowhere. Blame it on the Advil Cold and Sinus?

Are you feeling any better? :)

I am, thank you. :) Still have that nagging, dry cough a bit. That's the last to go with most people. I also experienced the hours of feeling good and then suddenly not feeling so good. I wasn't taking anything, though.

Speaking of taking something, if you've started to take the Bactrim, I urge you to finish the entire bottle even though you may feel better. Not finishing an antibiotic is one reason so many bacteria are becoming resistent. Only the strong survive, as I tell patients. They not only survive, they can mutate.

[The Drunk Girl]

I am, thank you. :) Still have that nagging, dry cough a bit. That's the last to go with most people. I also experienced the hours of feeling good and then suddenly not feeling so good. I wasn't taking anything, though.

Speaking of taking something, if you've started to take the Bactrim, I urge you to finish the entire bottle even though you may feel better. Not finishing an antibiotic is one reason so many bacteria are becoming resistent. Only the strong survive, as I tell patients. They not only survive, they can mutate.

Yup. That is what they told me when I picked up my prescriptions. I believe I take it twice a day for 10 days. Thanks for looking out :)

[Michael]

It's a good thing we have vigilant nurses like you who are so much more knowledgeable than those doctors.

Yes it is indeed a good thing. :)

Nurses don't usually get free vacations from pharmaceutical companies.

[Lasher]

Yes it is indeed a good thing. :)

Nurses don't usually get free vacations from pharmaceutical companies.
What a pity. And think about all those poor LPNs who suffer so!

[Lily]

Yes it is indeed a good thing. :)

Nurses don't usually get free vacations from pharmaceutical companies.

We RNs get free pens sometimes. Whoo hoo.

[The Drunk Girl]

We RNs get free pens sometimes. Whoo hoo.

:rofl: (don't forget the notepads)

[The Drunk Girl]

Speaking of which.... Wish me luck for getting in for the Spring. I should find out the middle of next month :tape:

[Lily]

Speaking of which.... Wish me luck for getting in for the Spring. I should find out the middle of next month :tape:

Keeping my fingers crossed for you, girl. We sure need nurses.

[Greendruid]

Then why don't prostitutes have colds and flu all year long?

Do you really want me to take aim at that target?

[Lasher]

Do you really want me to take aim at that target?
Sure!

[Michael]

Do you really want me to take aim at that target?
I'm curious. Higher resistence due to higher exposure levels?

[Lily]

I'm curious. Higher resistence due to higher exposure levels?


Huh. I didn't know the flu was a sexually transmitted disease. ;) And from what I've heard, prostitutes don't kiss, so....

I think one would have a greater chance catching the flu on a crowded bus.

[Michael]

Huh. I didn't know the flu was a sexually transmitted disease. ;) And from what I've heard, prostitutes don't kiss, so....

I think one would have a greater chance catching the flu on a crowded bus.

Yes, that's equally possible from my perspective. I'm not very well schooled in the science of biology to say the least.
That's why I'm curious about it.

Greendruid does have some particular expertise upon the sociology of biology - which is why I'm curious about his reply. :)

[Lasher]

Huh. I didn't know the flu was a sexually transmitted disease. ;) And from what I've heard, prostitutes don't kiss, so....

I think one would have a greater chance catching the flu on a crowded bus.
Buses are crowded in all seasons, though, if you can see the point.

[Michael]

Is it just me or has this Swine Flu thing turned out to be just like the much vaunted 'millenium bug'?

:shrug:

After wall-to-wall coverage on the media about vaccinations for the last two months, now the only news about this topic is to announce that various public immunization clinics are closing due to lack of interest.

Unofficial word has it that the Swine Flu passed through Southern Ontario back in October. Swine flu immunizations began in mid-November.

Panic level warnings from the WHO and breathless warnings from the government? For what? Haven't these people heard about the boy who cried wolf? Who is going to pay attention the next time these people have a red alert?

Btw, my own company 'sick days' recorded in October and November of this year are about half of what they usually are (four days in total, for thirty employees).

[drgoodtrips]

I haven't understood the hysteria, but I've seen it. Swine flu hysteria is still in high gear here. Everyone is constantly scrubbing, sanitizing, disinfecting and everything else. We're being told not to touch each other's keyboards, not to touch door handles, not to speak to people unless we need to, etc. I've seen various germ-phobic proclamations on the news where companies are getting 'creative' and doing weird things like banning the wearing of ties to keep this devastating pandemic in check.

None of this seems to square with what I personally observe, however. This flu season is just like all other flu seasons. A handful of people I know have gotten mildly sick and then come back to work a few days later. Most people are fine.

[drgoodtrips]

Is it just me or has this Swine Flu thing turned out to be just like the much vaunted 'millenium bug'?

:shrug:

After wall-to-wall coverage on the media about vaccinations for the last two months, now the only news about this topic is to announce that various public immunization clinics are closing due to lack of interest.

Unofficial word has it that the Swine Flu passed through Southern Ontario back in October. Swine flu immunizations began in mid-November.

Panic level warnings from the WHO and breathless warnings from the government? For what? Haven't these people heard about the boy who cried wolf? Who is going to pay attention the next time these people have a red alert?

Btw, my own company 'sick days' recorded in October and November of this year are about half of what they usually are (four days in total, for thirty employees).

Everyone, I think. Over the last ten years, we've had similar panic levels about avian flu, SARS, and West Nile virus (just off the top of my head). Four in ten years means that we're averaging close to a "sky is falling" pandemic every other year. I believe that 2 years may be the shelf-life of cynicism before people are ready to collectively lose their minds again.

[Michael]

Everyone, I think. Over the last ten years, we've had similar panic levels about avian flu, SARS, and West Nile virus (just off the top of my head). Four in ten years means that we're averaging close to a "sky is falling" pandemic every other year. I believe that 2 years may be the shelf-life of cynicism before people are ready to collectively lose their minds again.

I'm worried about the credibility of organizations like WHO. They were telling us to prepare for potential 25-35% absenteeism right about now. We have less than half our usual (very low) absenteeism rate right now. WHO looks like a bunch of amateur idiots now.

[Lily]

We haven't even begun the "regular" flu season yet. H1N1 is still widespread in 43 states, down from 48 three weeks ago in the U.S. Canada is also showing widespread H1N1. There is evidence of mutation in three cases in Norway, and there seems to be a link between H1N1 and a higher incidence of bacterial pneumonia, which has been causing mortality.

H1N1 hasn't gone away. The media just isn't finding it all that exciting anymore. Once the regular flu season starts, you'll see it again on a TV near you.

[The Drunk Girl]

The swine flu is very similar to the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic (they both are forms of H1N1) and we are actually "overdue" for this kind of thing to happen. I believe it's every 50 years or so, but I could be wrong there.

The flu, along with colds and other viruses that have no cure are some nasty shit. They are constantly evolving due to them being able to pick up pieces (for lack of better words) within our bodies and adding them to their makeup. Without having a specific genetic makeup and them changing, it is hard to target a direct cure.

[Michael]

The swine flu is very similar to the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic (they both are forms of H1N1) and we are actually "overdue" for this kind of thing to happen. I believe it's every 50 years or so, but I could be wrong there.

The flu, along with colds and other viruses that have no cure are some nasty shit. They are constantly evolving due to them being able to pick up pieces (for lack of better words) within our bodies and adding them to their makeup. Without having a specific genetic makeup and them changing, it is hard to target a direct cure.

It is our industrial agriculture system that is the source of these virii.

[Greendruid]

I have had more absentee students than ever in the 15 years that I've been teaching at the university level. What's more fun is that the institution has told us that we cannot require a medical certificate for absentees claiming flu-like symptoms. I wonder if the first is related to the second. However, I have at least a 10% absentee rate for exams where I would normally have a 2-3% rate. Some of them have been off for the recommended 7-10 days too. Perhaps the age set that we're each dealing with here has something more to do with it?

[drgoodtrips]

Given the general mood right now about the swine flu, I think that it gives anyone an excuse to miss work/school with impunity. If I wanted a day off, I wouldn't even have to ask for it. I'd just call up and say, "I have a mild fever and a runny nose. It's probably nothing, but..." and wait to be interrupted with "just stay home."

[Greendruid]

True indeed but I have certificates from some of them - more than I usually would had someone falsely and frivolously claimed illness.

[Lily]

I have had more absentee students than ever in the 15 years that I've been teaching at the university level. What's more fun is that the institution has told us that we cannot require a medical certificate for absentees claiming flu-like symptoms. I wonder if the first is related to the second. However, I have at least a 10% absentee rate for exams where I would normally have a 2-3% rate. Some of them have been off for the recommended 7-10 days too. Perhaps the age set that we're each dealing with here has something more to do with it?

We really don't want people with mild flu symptoms going to the doctor or a clinic or god forbid, the ER to get a certificate. They aren't going to be given any treatment, really, and all they'll do is spread the virus to more people. Even the CDC recommends people with mild symptoms just stay home until they're not having symptoms anymore.

[The Drunk Guy]

Given the general mood right now about the swine flu, I think that it gives anyone an excuse to miss work/school with impunity. If I wanted a day off, I wouldn't even have to ask for it. I'd just call up and say, "I have a mild fever and a runny nose. It's probably nothing, but..." and wait to be interrupted with "just stay home."
I took the day off because my significant other is down with it. No problem from my germaphobe boss. I joked that I wanted to breathe on him and he instinctually drew away from me. :lol:

[Americano]

Given the general mood right now about the swine flu, I think that it gives anyone an excuse to miss work/school with impunity. If I wanted a day off, I wouldn't even have to ask for it. I'd just call up and say, "I have a mild fever and a runny nose. It's probably nothing, but..." and wait to be interrupted with "just stay home."

I'd think most workers not on salary or without paid sick days are going to show up for work until they're ordered to go home or can't function. Missing work/pay is an economic hardship for many employees. Not to mention working parents in that demographic with an afflicted child or two.