On Death

[KSigMason]

On Death
by KSigMason

Death, the Great Equalizer, has gone by many names: Anubis, Grim Reaper, Charon, etc. Death's very name can caus chaos among or humble the most arrogant men. In most civilizations and mythologies there lies some kind of physical embodiment of Death.

Who is Death? Should he be feared? Many think that this topic isn't appropriate and in many circles it is taboo. For most he is seen as some kind of grim tyrant that cuts the strings of life and steals them away from their loved ones. In essence he is a guide for the departed's soul to their final destination.

Many ancient cultures did not see him as some evil being. In Greek mythology, life and death dealt with several beings. First you had the Fates: Clotho, who spun the web of life; Lachesis, who measured its length; and Atropos, who cut it. Once someone died their soul was ferried to the Underworld by Charon. Anubis was considered the god of the underworld and judge of those have left the world (embalming methods were attributed to this god). Not even the Viking gods could escape the final cut of the Norns (an equivalent to the Greek fates). The Norse believed that the great Dead Warriors of lore and history were taken by the Valkyries to Valhalla presided over by Odin, who swelled his ranks with these warriors in preparation to Ragnarok. Grimnir, an alias of Odin, is the root of the word "Grim" in the phrase "Grim Reaper".

The Abrahamic religions each have a view of death and what awaits afterward. Whether it be the Four Horseman or an Angel of Death.

From the 15th century to modern times, Death's physical appearance is a skeleton, sometimes clothed in a black cloak armed with a scythe. The scythe is seen as an implement of death in many cultures. This stems mainly from the Christian Biblical belief of death as a "harvester of souls." You also see a scythe used by Cronus and Kali, the Hindu goddess of Death.

Here are some symbolic symbols of Death:

The HOUR GLASS is an emblem of human life. Behold! How swiftly the sands run, and how rapidly our lives are drawing closer to a close! We cannot, without astonishment, behold the little particles which are contained in this machine-how they pass almost imperceptibly; and yet, to our surprise, in the short space of an hour they are all exhausted. Thus wastes man! Today he puts forth the tender leaves of hope; tomorrow, blossoms, and bears his blushing honors thick upon him; and the next day comes a frost which nips the shoot; and when he thinks his greatness is still aspiring, he falls, like autumn leaves, to enrich our mother earth.

The SCYTHE is an emblem of time, which cuts the brittle thread of life, and launches us into eternity. Behold! What havoc the scythe of time makes among the human race! If by chance we should escape the numerous evils incident to childhood and youth, and with health and vigor arrive at the years of manhood, yet, withal, we must soon be cut down by the all-devouring scythe of time, and be gathered into the land where our fathers have gone before us.

I can't help, but bring in the Freemasons into it. In one of the lectures this is an exert:

...that we may be prepared to meet death, not as a grim tyrant, but as a kind messenger sent to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Grand Master of the Universe forever presides.
Time makes fools of us all and Death eventually comes to all. Through this view I believe Death cannot be purely evil.

Quotes concerning Death:

End? This is not the end. Death is just another path, one that we all must take.
- Gandalf, LOTR

After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
- Dumbledore, Harry Potter series

There are more dead people than living. And their numbers are increasing. The living are getting rarer.
- Eugene Ionesco

You only live twice. Once when you are born and once when you look death in the face.
- Ian Fleming

A man begins dying at the moment of his birth. Most people live in denial of Death's patient courtship until, late in life and deep in sickness, they become aware of him sitting bedside.
- Dean Koontz


Death hath not only particular stars in heaven, but malevolent places on earth, which single out our infirmities and strike at our weaker parts.
- Sir Thomas Browne

Death is an angel with two faces; to us he turns a face of terror, blighting all things fair; the other burns with glory of the stars, ad love is there.
- T. C. Williams

Death is but a name, a date, a milestone by the stormy road, where you may lay aside your load and bow your face and rest and wait, defying fear, defying fate.
- Joaquin Miller

As old age approaches, man's strength declines. His sun is setting in the West.
- Masonic Lecture


Interesting note: Anubis was the Lord of the Westerners as it is said the gate to the Underworld lies in the West. The people believed this since the Sun closed the day by setting in the West.

[Michael]

[FONT=arial]From the 15th century to modern times, Death's physical appearance is a skeleton, sometimes clothed in a black cloak armed with a scythe.

You attribute this to Christian theology, but I don't see any basis for that conclusion. Would it not be more probable that the Tarot is the origin of the 'popular' depiction of 'Death' as a [hooded] skeleton carrying a scythe?

I do believe that the Tarot Cards first appeared (in their modern form) in 15th century Italy.

Btw, the one concept about death that I've always found confusing is the Abrahamic tradition of holding that death is an escape from the horror of this world. This seems to be at odds with the lengths the religious folks go through to preserve and celebrate earthly existence (which is supposedly 'hellish').

Likewise with those Buddhist or Hindu philosophers. If they seek the paradise of afterlife so much, why don't they just die already? Why do they always tend to invest so much energy into this 'earthly lie'?

Indeed, a question to all religious folks - if faith is all about heaven and the 'true' life after this life, why are you still here?

[Donkey]

Indeed, a question to all religious folks - if faith is all about heaven and the 'true' life after this life, why are you still here?
It's been a while (just kidding, it's been like seven or eight months) since I studied it, but I believe St. Augustine addresses this issue at length. The bottom line, iirc, is essentially YOU MAY NOT KILL YOURSELF.

[Michael]

It's been a while (just kidding, it's been like seven or eight months) since I studied it, but I believe St. Augustine addresses this issue at length. The bottom line, iirc, is essentially YOU MAY NOT KILL YOURSELF.
Yes, Augustine made that argument.

However, I believe there is a big difference between "killing yourself" and taking enormous measures to ensure you won't die for as long as humanly possible.

Its the latter characterization that strikes me as being so popular with the religous folks (clinging to life for every last possible minute).

And why aren't Christian funerals festive affairs? They should be according to Christian theology since the 'dead' person is supposedly going to a 'better' place and way from all the hell of earthly sin. Seems that Christian theology is quite confused (or trying to have it both ways) on the issue of death and how to treat it.

[dilettante]

Indeed, a question to all religious folks - if faith is all about heaven and the 'true' life after this life, why are you still here?

Not all religious folk hold that "faith is all about heaven" or that life-after-death is any more "true" than this life. Not all religions have accepted the existence of any afterlife (e.g. some historic branches of Judaism denied life-after-death).


And why aren't Christian funerals festive affairs? They should be according to Christian theology since the 'dead' person is supposedly going to a 'better' place and way from all the hell of earthly sin. Seems that Christian theology is quite confused (or trying to have it both ways) on the issue of death and how to treat it.

The handful of Christian funerals I've been to I'd characterized as "bitter-sweet", and most have expressed some sort of rejoicing for the dead going to a "better place".

But religious or otherwise, mourners grieve for themselves and the family of the dead, not for the person who died. Whether they're in heaven or simply gone, the dead are in no condition to be pitied; it's the living who must live out their lives missing them who we feel sorry for.
And I think Christian theology (and perhaps others) implies that there is something profoundly wrong about death, something that 'should-not-be'. In their case at least funerals are a reminder that the world is a broken place, which is a sad thing.

[KSigMason]

You attribute this to Christian theology, but I don't see any basis for that conclusion. Would it not be more probable that the Tarot is the origin of the 'popular' depiction of 'Death' as a [hooded] skeleton carrying a scythe?
I would also think they took the scythe as an implement of death from the Indians as their god. Since this instrument was used to cut down vegetation I could also surmise that the people applied to deaths physical being as he is the one that cuts us all down in the end.

Btw, the one concept about death that I've always found confusing is the Abrahamic tradition of holding that death is an escape from the horror of this world. This seems to be at odds with the lengths the religious folks go through to preserve and celebrate earthly existence (which is supposedly 'hellish').

Likewise with those Buddhist or Hindu philosophers. If they seek the paradise of afterlife so much, why don't they just die already? Why do they always tend to invest so much energy into this 'earthly lie'?
You would think that many would look forward to Death to meet their Creator (if they believe).

I'm not saying everyone should go out and kill themself, but I do wonder why so many fear dying.

Indeed, a question to all religious folks - if faith is all about heaven and the 'true' life after this life, why are you still here?
I would say that we are here to prove our faith, learn lessons, and prepare for the Here After.

And why aren't Christian funerals festive affairs? They should be according to Christian theology since the 'dead' person is supposedly going to a 'better' place and way from all the hell of earthly sin. Seems that Christian theology is quite confused (or trying to have it both ways) on the issue of death and how to treat it.
See, I'm going to rig my coffin (if I decide not to cremate) so if you get to close I spring up. :rofl: I'm leaving it in my will that there be a party instead of a funeral. IMO, I am going to a wonderful place, why should my loved ones be sad? Yes, they may miss me, but it's not like they won't ever see me again.

If I know my family and they know me, they will have fully stocked bar with the finest whiskeys around.

[Michael]

I would also think they took the scythe as an implement of death from the Indians as their god. Since this instrument was used to cut down vegetation I could also surmise that the people applied to deaths physical being as he is the one that cuts us all down in the end.

I suppose the Druidic tradition is also potentially influential here since the scythe was also strongly associate with them - and the ritual annual death of the Druid. Indeed, the more I think about this angle, the more it makes sense as the most likely origin of linking the scythe with death. Of course, harvesting the fields is an analogy for 'harvesting souls' and thus the scythe makes an obvious symbolic connection there.

You would think that many would look forward to Death to meet their Creator (if they believe).

I'm not saying everyone should go out and kill themself, but I do wonder why so many fear dying.
That's my point. I'd expect that Christians ought to talk about death more often and treat it as a point of celebration - yet they don't. Christians seem to 'fear' death as much as any other human being generally does and this seems rather odd given official Christian theology on the issue.

I would say that we are here to prove our faith, learn lessons, and prepare for the Here After.
I've always found the model of "God creates people, God tests people, God punishes those who fall short" to be rather logically bizarre. Seems rather odd to admit that God has the power to create people and control everything, but then turn around and admit that God punishes those who fail.

Problem here is that God's creations can only fail if God set it up for this and chose this outcome. God had to choose it and create the conditions. Why does God create people for the purpose of torturing them? That's odd theology.

And the only way out of this is to assert that God doesn't have the power to interfere with human choices. But that infers that God is not omnipotent and thus isn't really a God at all.

See, I'm going to rig my coffin (if I decide not to cremate) so if you get to close I spring up. :rofl: I'm leaving it in my will that there be a party instead of a funeral. IMO, I am going to a wonderful place, why should my loved ones be sad? Yes, they may miss me, but it's not like they won't ever see me again.

If I know my family and they know me, they will have fully stocked bar with the finest whiskeys around.
That's sounds more like a proper Christian send off given actual Christian theology.

[Lily]

I've always found the model of "God creates people, God tests people, God punishes those who fall short" to be rather logically bizarre. Seems rather odd to admit that God has the power to create people and control everything, but then turn around and admit that God punishes those who fail.

Problem here is that God's creations can only fail if God set it up for this and chose this outcome. God had to choose it and create the conditions. Why does God create people for the purpose of torturing them? That's odd theology.

That, my friend, is the essence of my ultimate rejection of the Christian faith.

[The Drunk Girl]

My first experience of this fear of death comes from the old fire and brimstone preaching. I remember the first time I heard a sermon like that I was terrified. I was afraid that any wrong thing I would do would send me to hell. However, it didn't take me long to figure out that I was always messing up, though;)

(I will be honest: I am still terrified to die. There is no controlling it and it could happen at any moment).

----------------

But, Death is what really started to get me questioning my religious beliefs and background. Sure there were other problems I had seen within the church (the politics: I witnessed a deacon being overthrown and his family ran out of the church. The hypocrisy, the backbiting, etc. I never quite understood it all).

In 2004, I lost my grandmother. She was the best thing that any God, being, creator, anything or one could have ever given me. She was my rock and her, along with my grandfather filled the role of a father I never had for many years. My grandmother had always been in bad health, for lack of better words, and was known throughout her siblings as the "sickly one." I suppose around the '70s or so, my grandmother began losing her hair. The doctors back then didn't think it was anything much to worry about, especially when she said I think there is more wrong with me than just having alopecia (my grandmother didn't have any hair on any part of her body).

By the time the 2000s rolled around my grandmother was diagnosed with having myelodysplasia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelodysplastic_syndrome

I would go with her to receive her chemo and other treatments. A few years later my grandfather was diagnosed with Alzheimer's (it was later confirmed that his body and brain was ate up with cancer before he passed). My senior year was supposed to be my "big trip" with my family. We were to head out west and site see, but the trip was bumped up to my junior year because my grandmother had a feeling she wouldn't be around and my grandfather was getting progressively worse off. As always, my grandmother was right: she passed away in February 2004 of my senior year.

What always got me was my grandmother was a church-goer. She didn't throw religion up in your face all the time, but she knew her beliefs and where she stood. She was firm in her beliefs and how did God repay her?...with a life full of sickness and a horribly, painful death (she had several stokes and hemorrhaged before passing).

So, they say that God is a selfish and loving God, but tell me where is the love in any of that?! It's hard for me to find any.

To this day I still struggle with my own personal religious beliefs and guilt. I am still not sure where I stand, but maybe...hopefully one day, if I should come to terms with being comfortable with death I will get my answer.

***Okay, so I am going to hand over my soapbox now***

[Michael]

Not all religious folk hold that "faith is all about heaven" or that life-after-death is any more "true" than this life. Not all religions have accepted the existence of any afterlife (e.g. some historic branches of Judaism denied life-after-death).

True. But my question is a quite general one. Several particularly notable religions (i.e. Christianity and Islam) do hold this as a doctrine.

And thus, I'm curious as to why faithful Christians and/or faithful Muslims don't seem to show any more veneration (let alone 'desire') for death than non-religious people (for example).

Indeed, I can push the same argument further (just because I like to do that) and ask why the birth of babies are celebrated by Christians since this is just another sinner, born in sin? If heaven is real, then earth is hell. I should think that one ought to feel sorry for the baby cursed by sin and joy for the happily departed soul. Yet Christians seem to act opposite to that in reality.

The handful of Christian funerals I've been to I'd characterized as "bitter-sweet", and most have expressed some sort of rejoicing for the dead going to a "better place".
Yes, 'better-sweet' can describe most funerals I think.

As for the rejoicing, any that I've seen has been only by rote or ritual. The reality is the sincere sadness.

But religious or otherwise, mourners grieve for themselves and the family of the dead, not for the person who died. Whether they're in heaven or simply gone, the dead are in no condition to be pitied; it's the living who must live out their lives missing them who we feel sorry for.
And I think Christian theology (and perhaps others) implies that there is something profoundly wrong about death, something that 'should-not-be'. In their case at least funerals are a reminder that the world is a broken place, which is a sad thing.
Yes, I understand that funerals and mourning may have some practical connection with the friends and family of the dead. But there is more to funerals than just that. 'Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...'

I do disagree that Christian theology implies anything profoundly wrong about death. I'd say that Christian theology has a particular obsession with it and will point to the 'crucified god who died and rose again' as definitive proof of this.

[Non Sequitur]

Indeed, a question to all religious folks - if faith is all about heaven and the 'true' life after this life, why are you still here?

ok, well there are a couple answers here

1. The already stated Augustine argument: suicide is not the best of things

2. It is true that "death has lost its sting" (1 Corinthians 15) but the proper application of this belief is that because the grave has been robbed of its final victory, this life should be celebrated all the more. This life should become a thanksgiving offering to God for the sacrifice that Christ made to achieve this victory

3. The Bible is not all together clear that when you die you go straight to heaven. In fact, some parts of the Bible have the idea that you wait around in the ground until the resurrection of the body. The Bible is clear that the ultimate hope is not to go to heaven after death, but to be resurrected in bodily form on judgment day in the New Jerusalem.

4. Last, the intelectuall acknowledgement that death has no more power does not automatically mean that the gut reaction fear of death is done away with.

[dilettante]

True. But my question is a quite general one. Several particularly notable religions (i.e. Christianity and Islam) do hold this as a doctrine.

And thus, I'm curious as to why faithful Christians and/or faithful Muslims don't seem to show any more veneration (let alone 'desire') for death than non-religious people (for example).

In my experience "faithful Christians and/or faithful Muslims" do treat death differently. The most extreme example would be the Islamic suicide bomber who firmly believes that paradise awaits him/her and approaches death with eagerness. Similar examples are easy enough to find in Christian history, but the concept makes no sense for one who doesn't believe in the afterlife.
And in general it seems that religious groups (Muslims and Catholics especially) are more likely to praise and celebrate martyrs than are the non-religious.

However, these days its difficult to identify "faithful Christians", at least in the US. The number of religious/theological beliefs (or lack thereof) which lead to a self-identification of "Christian" is staggering. Broad generalizations about the group tell you almost nothing about any particular unit thereof. Perhaps a similar definitional problem exists for "faithful Muslim" in other parts of the world.


Indeed, I can push the same argument further (just because I like to do that) and ask why the birth of babies are celebrated by Christians since this is just another sinner, born in sin? If heaven is real, then earth is hell. I should think that one ought to feel sorry for the baby cursed by sin and joy for the happily departed soul. Yet Christians seem to act opposite to that in reality.

Well, I don't know any Christians who see earth as "hell" (those who believe in hell have something much worse in mind). Though I believe some forms of Buddhism take such a line: life is suffering, one must escape the cycle of rebirth and so forth. I can't pretend to speak of Buddhists, but as far as I know that isn't a common Christian perception.
And wrt to babies, Christians I know generally accept the notion that 'life is a gift from God' and celebrate it. And, of course, babies are cute.


Yes, 'better-sweet' can describe most funerals I think.

As for the rejoicing, any that I've seen has been only by rote or ritual. The reality is the sincere sadness.

One man's ritual is another earnest's belief, so I suppose it depends on who was attending. And, again, one should expect sadness to be the primary emotion; funerals are those left behind.

But in my experience with funerals, I've noticed that religious doctrine related to the afterlife, and often Biblical quotation, regularly makes appearances in the funerals of those who in life had no particular belief or practice in religion. Indeed, unless the departed was either adamantly atheistic or an adherent of another religion, the norm in the US is to have a "Christian burial". Even the near ubiquitous "Ashes to ashes and dust to dust" you quote below is derived from the Book of Common Prayer and Genesis 3:19.

If there is no great difference between the funerals of the religious and the non-religious, it is in part because the non-religious (or at least their families) choose to have religious funerals.


Yes, I understand that funerals and mourning may have some practical connection with the friends and family of the dead. But there is more to funerals than just that. 'Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...'

I do disagree that Christian theology implies anything profoundly wrong about death. I'd say that Christian theology has a particular obsession with it and will point to the 'crucified god who died and rose again' as definitive proof of this.

I suppose it depends on what one encapsulates in the protean term "Christian theology".

But to take your example, the significance of the Cruxification is not death but death defeated or undone by the Resurrection. And victory over the finality death is constant refrain: "O' Death, where is thy sting?" and so forth.

Death itself is identified as a curse (part of the curse in genesis) and the ultimate plague inflicted on Egypt before the Jewish Exodus. It is repeatedly used to denote the ultimate sacrifice one can endure, from Abraham's offer of Isaac, to Christ's sacrifice, to the deaths of the martyrs.

So yes, death is a regular theme in Christian theology, but always as something that should not be and one day will not be; something that arises from the presence of evil. It came with "the Fall" and was undone with the Resurrection. It is the ultimate, final symbol of all that is wrong with the universe and its elimination marks the dawn of eternity: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:26)
Or such at least is my reading of, and personal take on, "Christian theology."

[KSigMason]

That's sounds more like a proper Christian send off given actual Christian theology.
Amen brother!

Sorry for the short post

[SMadsen]

Well, I don't know any Christians who see earth as "hell" (those who believe in hell have something much worse in mind). Though I believe some forms of Buddhism take such a line: life is suffering, one must escape the cycle of rebirth and so forth. I can't pretend to speak of Buddhists, but as far as I know that isn't a common Christian perception.
And wrt to babies, Christians I know generally accept the notion that 'life is a gift from God' and celebrate it. And, of course, babies are cute.
I agree with Michael that this in particular seems strange. I don't believe it needs the view that life earth is hell but merely the doctrines of eternal life combined with original sin in order for birth to be mournful and death to be a joyful occassion.

If a child is born into sin and therefore faces a lifetime of guilt and tribulation, I don't see any reason to celebrate the birth as much as the departure. Add to that that it's a gift of the god - which only means that people are facing even more guilt if they refuse to accept it as such.

Is it really only because a child is cuter looking than a corpse?

[Non Sequitur]

I agree with Michael that this in particular seems strange. I don't believe it needs the view that life earth is hell but merely the doctrines of eternal life combined with original sin in order for birth to be mournful and death to be a joyful occassion.

If a child is born into sin and therefore faces a lifetime of guilt and tribulation, I don't see any reason to celebrate the birth as much as the departure. Add to that that it's a gift of the god - which only means that people are facing even more guilt if they refuse to accept it as such.

Is it really only because a child is cuter looking than a corpse?

Just because evil happens does that mean life isn't worth living? And where are we getting the word tribulation from?

[Michael]

Just because evil happens does that mean life isn't worth living? And where are we getting the word tribulation from?
I dunno know about tribulation.

But if sin is evil, then it is Christian doctrine that the birth of a baby is evil by definition.

Unless sin isn't actually evil (and if it isn't what is it?)

[Non Sequitur]

I dunno know about tribulation.

But if sin is evil, then it is Christian doctrine that the birth of a baby is evil by definition.

Unless sin isn't actually evil (and if it isn't what is it?)

Well OK, lets clarify the doctrine of Original Sin.

The Doctrine states that by Adam's first sin, disobeying God, that all his descendants are marked by this transgression. This mark manifests itself in that now Humanity lives fundementally in rebellion to God if left alone. This can be described as humanity's unwavering desire to sin. Now whether there is a historical Adam or not is irrelevant because the truth that people live in rebellion to God remains the same. This, however, does not trump the fact that all of creation is still "good" as Genesis 1 says because God deems it. So while humanity is marked by the transgression of Original Sin (and thus all kinds of sin) humanity is still of value to the creator. Creation is not evil, but "bent" (as C.S. Lewis wrote) from its original purpose.

On a side note, Augustine said that sin and evil is actually nothing but the absence of good, no actual substance in itself.

[dilettante]

I agree with Michael that this in particular seems strange. I don't believe it needs the view that life earth is hell but merely the doctrines of eternal life combined with original sin in order for birth to be mournful and death to be a joyful occassion.

If a child is born into sin and therefore faces a lifetime of guilt and tribulation, I don't see any reason to celebrate the birth as much as the departure. Add to that that it's a gift of the god - which only means that people are facing even more guilt if they refuse to accept it as such.

Is it really only because a child is cuter looking than a corpse?

As Non Sequitur said, this seems to imply a view that 'life on earth = bad', which isn't generally a Christian position. Almost everyone, Christian or not, knows that a new born's life will have varying degrees of good and bad in it, and we almost all choose to focus on (and hope for) the good. And beyond that, life is a precious and wonderful thing and a new child is still made in the image of and (as Non said) precious to God and therefore worth some celebration, even if born into a sinful world.

Christian births and funerals should be occasions for joy (more so than they generally are, perhaps), though the latter may quite naturally be mixed with considerable grief.

[SMadsen]

As Non Sequitur said, this seems to imply a view that 'life on earth = bad', which isn't generally a Christian position.
Nah, it merely implies that "sin = bad", which, I believe, is generally a Christian position. And isn't it the Christian position as well that Heaven is the only place where sin does not exist?

Almost everyone, Christian or not, knows that a new born's life will have varying degrees of good and bad in it, and we almost all choose to focus on (and hope for) the good. And beyond that, life is a precious and wonderful thing and a new child is still made in the image of and (as Non said) precious to God and therefore worth some celebration, even if born into a sinful world.
Except the very idea that the birth of a new child is what makes it a sinful world. IOW, the world is only sinful because every human individual is a sinner from birth.

If all humans gathered in Heaven, the world would not be sinful. Of course, humans have to die to do that and, thus, death is something to celebrate. Birth, on the other hand, puts humans on earth, which makes it sinful, aka. "bad", and therefore birth should be something to mourn. Or maybe even something to detest as much as sin can be detested (and that's quite alot I can tell you from 20 years in virtual company with American Christian right-wingers :) ).

Christian births and funerals should be occasions for joy (more so than they generally are, perhaps), though the latter may quite naturally be mixed with considerable grief.
Exactly. We humans are pretty much the same regardless of what kinds of ideas we create in our minds.

[SMadsen]

Just because evil happens does that mean life isn't worth living? And where are we getting the word tribulation from?
I'm not saying life isn't worth living. I said that according to Christian tenets it certainly seems logical that life isn't worth celebrating any more than sin, or, as you say 'evil', is worth celebrating.

[dilettante]

Nah, it merely implies that "sin = bad", which, I believe, is generally a Christian position. And isn't it the Christian position as well that Heaven is the only place where sin does not exist?


Except the very idea that the birth of a new child is what makes it a sinful world. IOW, the world is only sinful because every human individual is a sinner from birth.

If all humans gathered in Heaven, the world would not be sinful. Of course, humans have to die to do that and, thus, death is something to celebrate. Birth, on the other hand, puts humans on earth, which makes it sinful, aka. "bad", and therefore birth should be something to mourn. Or maybe even something to detest as much as sin can be detested (and that's quite alot I can tell you from 20 years in virtual company with American Christian right-wingers :) ).

But the point of Christianity (if it can be said to have one) is not achieving a 'sinless' world but a redeemed humanity living in a sinless world. It's worth pointing out (because somehow this always seems to get lost) that the 'eternal destiny' of humankind according to Christianity isn't living in Heaven but on a renewed earth. A human-less earth doesn't fulfill the objective.

And, speaking for myself here, I think some Christians focus far to heavily on sin as if it were a substance to be exterminated at any cost. They seem to lose sight of the value of people and that sin will be gone once people are redeemed. As I said before, people are precious to God and carry His image. I think the grand Christian scheme of things the joy of the arrival of a new creature bearing that image and the value of that new person should outweigh any grief over their capacity to sin.

In effect, the worst sin could possibly can do is to negate the positive value of the individual; but I don't think it can be a net negative.



Exactly. We humans are pretty much the same regardless of what kinds of ideas we create in our minds.

Well, I suppose it depends on what scale we're using. It seems to me that history shows that the ideas people have in their minds can make quite a difference.

EDIT:
On a completely different note, have you ever read Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller? He's a Christian author who gave the opening (or closing?) prayer at the Democratic National Convention last year. It'd give you a sample of an American evangelical Christian from the left, if ever feel the need.

[SMadsen]

But the point of Christianity (if it can be said to have one) is not achieving a 'sinless' world but a redeemed humanity living in a sinless world. It's worth pointing out (because somehow this always seems to get lost) that the 'eternal destiny' of humankind according to Christianity isn't living in Heaven but on a renewed earth. A human-less earth doesn't fulfill the objective.

And, speaking for myself here, I think some Christians focus far to heavily on sin as if it were a substance to be exterminated at any cost. They seem to lose sight of the value of people and that sin will be gone once people are redeemed. As I said before, people are precious to God and carry His image. I think the grand Christian scheme of things the joy of the arrival of a new creature bearing that image and the value of that new person should outweigh any grief over their capacity to sin.

In effect, the worst sin could possibly can do is to negate the positive value of the individual; but I don't think it can be a net negative.
But the individual is born with a "negative value", isn't it? I mean, sin is not only a capacity but a property. According to Christianity, we are born with sin. As sinners.

Well, I suppose it depends on what scale we're using. It seems to me that history shows that the ideas people have in their minds can make quite a difference.
The human scale. For example, we procreate because it's generally a good thing. We grieve when someone dies because it's generally a sad thing. Regardless of sin, souls, afterlifes, impounding or not impounding of morality or whatever our respective world views bid us.

EDIT:
On a completely different note, have you ever read Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller? He's a Christian author who gave the opening (or closing?) prayer at the Democratic National Convention last year. It'd give you a sample of an American evangelical Christian from the left, if ever feel the need.
Well, I'm not sure I could read something stretching more than a page in a coherent manner if it was written because the author was religious :) Thanks for the tip, though.

[dilettante]

But the individual is born with a "negative value", isn't it? I mean, sin is not only a capacity but a property. According to Christianity, we are born with sin. As sinners.

I suppose that relates to one's take on 'original sin', a historically thorny issue subject to wide disagreement. Non gave one reading a few posts back; I think Roman Catholics hold that original sin is a loss of holiness and results in human nature being weakened, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin. And I think I, personally, take something along that view.

But only the most extreme views of 'total depravity' would hold that a living human has 0 value, much less negative value. Indeed, a major part of the "good news" of the Christian gospel is that God loves and values us humans in spite of our sin:

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:7–8)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:16-17)

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 4:10)

[Non Sequitur]

I'm not saying life isn't worth living. I said that according to Christian tenets it certainly seems logical that life isn't worth celebrating any more than sin, or, as you say 'evil', is worth celebrating.

ah, well that line of thinking has existed, and continues to exist in various forms. Traditionally though, it has been labeled as gnosticism. Again, we must not confuse the doctrine of Original Sin. It does not say that the world or creation is evil, but that it has, and still does, deviate from the original intent of the Creator.

[SMadsen]

ah, well that line of thinking has existed, and continues to exist in various forms. Traditionally though, it has been labeled as gnosticism. Again, we must not confuse the doctrine of Original Sin. It does not say that the world or creation is evil, but that it has, and still does, deviate from the original intent of the Creator.
True, it just says that humans are born as sinners. And even you equated sin with evil.

Anyhow, with the comment about "original intent of the Creator" I feel the paradoxes of omniscience and omnipotency lining up, so I'll better retreat from the thread while I have a free will to do so ;)