US School System

[Americano]

This article has a decent description of how US school attendance requirements up to university level compare to their Asian and European counterparts, and I'm curious as to what others think of the comparison:

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13825184

One point of US school schedules that really bewilders me is the summer vacation. It was originally structured for an agrarian society, which hasn't existed in the US since prior to ww2. In addition, most US states have enacted legislation that prohibits youth under the age of 16 from formal employment. The US is truly mired in the past on many issues.

[Michael]

Canada seems to have identical school-time policies as the USA. Average public school days in Canada range from 4.5 hours per day to 5.5 hours, giving an average school week of 22.5 hours to a high of 27.5 hours.

Canada also has the same 180 day school year as the USA and the same two-and-a-half month long summer vacation.

[Dominick]

Cool, just what I was looking for. :thanks:


American children also have one of the shortest school days, six-and-a-half hours, adding up to 32 hours a week. By contrast, the school week is 37 hours in Luxembourg, 44 in Belgium, 53 in Denmark and 60 in Sweden. On top of that, American children do only about an hour’s-worth of homework a day, a figure that stuns the Japanese and Chinese
That alone explains a lot. Combined with the shorter school year, that's a lot of time spent less on education.

It's just a hunch but I expect serious differences in the curriculum istself too.

Innocent question : how is the American youth going to compete in a globalized word with a few hundred million better educated Chinese youngsters ?

[Michael]

Innocent question : how is the American youth going to compete in a globalized word with a few hundred million better educated Chinese youngsters ?

Half those Chinese youngsters will use their high quality educations to get themselves into the USA (or elite US universities). Funny process that is.

Btw, US elites send their kids to elite private schools and elite universities. These schools and these universities routinely are categorized as the best of the best in the world. In absolute numbers, the US elite is larger than the middle class in most other countries.

Its the US underclass I'd be worried about. They are getting more numerous (proportionally) and worse educated as time goes on.

[partofme]

Cool, just what I was looking for. :thanks:


That alone explains a lot. Combined with the shorter school year, that's a lot of time spent less on education.

It's just a hunch but I expect serious differences in the curriculum istself too.

Innocent question : how is the American youth going to compete in a globalized word with a few hundred million better educated Chinese youngsters ?

I was always able to get my homework done during part of the lunch break or other downtime so I often didn't even have to take any books home and this was 12 years ago.

[Michael]

I was always able to get my homework done during part of the lunch break or other downtime so I often didn't even have to take any books home and this was 12 years ago.
There is a rule in my family that I'm not allowed to talk about school or homework since I famously prided myself on NEVER doing any homework before getting to university. Seriously - never. I would just say "sorry, I didn't do it" whenever they asked.

I also earned a bit of notoriety for skipping classes (in my final year of high school, I skipped over 60% of classes).

Given that I'm the most educated person in my family (and a reputation as an 'intellectual'), this doesn't go over well with my family who have teenaged children in school right now. :D

[The Drunk Girl]

A few years before I started to attend college, the concept of the "year-around" schedule was put into place. The school year would start roughly in the beginning of August---when I started kindergarten it was closer to the beginning of September--- and end around May sometimes. I'm horrible at remembering when the school year actually let out, because it varied so much due to snow days, sicknesses, etc. (I remember when I was in elementary school they let us out a week early, because we hadn't "missed" enough days of school).:lol:

It sounded horrible at first---only getting June and July for summer vacation, but the weeks they took away from our summer vacation was placed throughout the school year.

For example, we had a Fall Break. Initially this break was for a week, but then it became two weeks: One actual week for a vacation and the other week was used for the kids that were failing classes to catch up. If you were a "good" student you ended up with both weeks off. :cool: (I especially loved fall break, because my birthday fell in this time slot:D) Christmas Break was also an extra week long, so we wound up with almost a month break. And Spring Break was the same as Fall Break.

[drgoodtrips]

Canada seems to have identical school-time policies as the USA. Average public school days in Canada range from 4.5 hours per day to 5.5 hours, giving an average school week of 22.5 hours to a high of 27.5 hours.

Canada also has the same 180 day school year as the USA and the same two-and-a-half month long summer vacation.

Wow. That seems light. In high school, my days started at 8 and ended at 3 - not much shorter than a standard working day (and for me, longer, when you factored in sports/clubs making my day 8 until 5 or 6).

[partofme]

Wow. That seems light. In high school, my days started at 8 and ended at 3 - not much shorter than a standard working day (and for me, longer, when you factored in sports/clubs making my day 8 until 5 or 6).

Our classes started at about 8:30 and ended at about 2:30 everyday. On top of that we got a whole hour for lunch which gave us about a half our of complete social time so really we only had five hours of actual class time minus time between classes to get from one to the next.

[Michael]

Wow. That seems light. In high school, my days started at 8 and ended at 3 - not much shorter than a standard working day (and for me, longer, when you factored in sports/clubs making my day 8 until 5 or 6).
It was. :D

My High School day started at 9am and ended at 3:17pm. That included 40 minutes for lunch plus 15 minutes for homeroom (announcements and attendance) and 5 minutes between each class since our school was rather large and sprawling (which adds another 40 minutes of dead time). Net result was 4 hours and 42 minutes of class time per day.

[Leprechaun]

Well, in secondary (just finished all my exams, finished forever!!!) school was from 9 to 3.55 with a 15 minute break and an hour break. The time was divided into nine 40 minute classes so you could lose up to 5-10 minutes (depending on the teacher) between them. With our new principal however (last two years) the day started at 8.55 and ended at 4 with the hour break becoming 55 minutes. (So basically the 15 minute break was reclaimed). On top of this free-classes were essentially abolished and we only got off early on Fridays as we worked through lunch (although I was notoriously late to every friday lunch class by about 15 minutes). In the final year we also spent on average 3 days out five working through our lunch break. (It was considered a joke that we never got a break) and we even came in 'voluntarily' (in a sense) during our holidays to do maybe an hour and a half here or there.

[Sucre]

This article has a decent description of how US school attendance requirements up to university level compare to their Asian and European counterparts, and I'm curious as to what others think of the comparison:

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13825184

One point of US school schedules that really bewilders me is the summer vacation. It was originally structured for an agrarian society, which hasn't existed in the US since prior to ww2. In addition, most US states have enacted legislation that prohibits youth under the age of 16 from formal employment. The US is truly mired in the past on many issues.

I am not sure about the number of hours at school since the curriculum has its importance too .- But one thing I am sure about is the amount of homework. Homework is crucial to a good learning process. It is at that moment that you learn by yourself and you learn to understand.

[Michael]

I am not sure about the number of hours at school since the curriculum has its importance too .- But one thing I am sure about is the amount of homework. Homework is crucial to a good learning process. It is at that moment that you learn by yourself and you learn to understand.
Agreed. That's how I got away with doing none - I just challenged the teacher to give me the test or the exam or whatever and I'd pass it (and end up with a score at the high end of the class). Part of this has to do with the fact that I probably read the whole textbook while sitting in class ignoring the lecture/lesson.

That being said, you are quite right, zero homework normally co-relates with zero education.

[Michael]

Well, in secondary (just finished all my exams, finished forever!!!) ...
If you are even remotely interested in a university education, you don't know what real exams are like yet! :D

Three hour exams are not fun - especially two or three in one day.

First lesson at university? High school was like kindergarten.

[Leprechaun]

If you are even remotely interested in a university education, you don't know what real exams are like yet! :D

Three hour exams are not fun - especially two or three in one day.

First lesson at university? High school was like kindergarten.

I just did 8 exams all ranging from 2:30 to 3 hours long.

[wphelan]

My school day was from 8:10 to 3:10, if I remember correctly. I don't recall ever doing much homework after about 4th grade. I was notoriously bad at completing assignments, but I would always do well when it came time for testing. It was pretty simple. I would pay attention in the classes where the teacher actually taught us something, and I was would read through the book in the classes that were pointless. The homework seemed kind of like a waste of time most of the time.

[Dominick]

Half those Chinese youngsters will use their high quality educations to get themselves into the USA (or elite US universities). Funny process that is.
You're going to accomodate 100 million Chinese youths in the US ? Yeah, right. I can't wait to hear the reaction from those that can't even stomach a handful of Mexicans.


Btw, US elites send their kids to elite private schools and elite universities. These schools and these universities routinely are categorized as the best of the best in the world. In absolute numbers, the US elite is larger than the middle class in most other countries.
The elite schools are among the best in the world, no question about that. I've got plenty of higher level (not sure what it's called, the thingy after college, undergraduate ?) school books of US origin in my library. They're all pretty decent. You find heaps of those in second hand book fairs here.
But elite schools are just for the richest and a few of the brightest. The general education I'm not impressed with. And that's an understatement.

[Dominick]

My school day started at 8am and didn't finish until 7pm. :(

As far as I remember that constituted of (weekly):
8 hours of math,
2 chemistry, 2 physics, 2 not-sure-how-to-translate-it 'engineering drawing'
1 history, 1 religion (didn't help much, did it :D), 1 geography
2 biology,
4-5 Dutch, 4 French, 2 English, 1 German
1 sports (yuck)

and a few other small things I don't really recall, music I guess, a bit of art and so.

Is this similar to a US highschool curriculum ?

[wphelan]

My school day started at 8am and didn't finish until 7pm. :(

As far as I remember that constituted of (weekly):
8 hours of math,
2 chemistry, 2 physics, 2 not-sure-how-to-translate-it 'engineering drawing'
1 history, 1 religion (didn't help much, did it :D), 1 geography
2 biology,
4-5 Dutch, 4 French, 2 English, 1 German
1 sports (yuck)

and a few other small things I don't really recall, music I guess, a bit of art and so.

Is this similar to a US highschool curriculum ?

Wow, you had eleven hours of school every day? Was it all mandatory? My high school's day was seven hours, but I was involved in sports and other activities, which meant most of the time I spent and extra two to three hours in some kind of school related activity. Still, that's only nine or ten hours.

[Sucre]

@ Dominik - 7pm is strange You mean 17.00 H, don't you ?

I do not exactly remember, but at least this (high school):
4 hours English, 3- 4 hours German, 3 hours Russian, 5-6 hours French, 2 hours latin, 9 hours philosophy (only in 12th grade), 3 - 6 hours math, 3 - 4 hours history and geography, 2 hours biology, 2 hours physics, 1 hour sport, 1 hour art, 1 hour music.

School from 8.00 am to 5 pm. But this included 2 hours for lunch. From Monday to Saturday (included, but only until 12.00 am). In secondary school, I was sent to another town, which meant that I had to stand up at 6.00 in the morning to take the bus at 7.00. Back at 6 pm. And still some homework to do !

When I started working for a salary, I found it strange and unusual to have nothing to do in the evening and on weekends ! :D

[Sucre]

You're going to accomodate 100 million Chinese youths in the US ? .
That's not the point. China has its own culture, and overbearing. They don't need the US and certainly not the US educational system.

[Dominick]

@ Dominik - 7pm is strange You mean 17.00 H, don't you ?
Nope. 19:00.

Wow, you had eleven hours of school every day? Was it all mandatory? My high school's day was seven hours, but I was involved in sports and other activities, which meant most of the time I spent and extra two to three hours in some kind of school related activity. Still, that's only nine or ten hours.
As far as I recall the last two hours were not mandatory. Those were study hours where you were supposed to do homework and such.


I do not exactly remember, but at least this (high school):
4 hours English, 3- 4 hours German, 3 hours Russian, 5-6 hours French, 2 hours latin, 9 hours philosophy (only in 12th grade), 3 - 6 hours math, 3 - 4 hours history and geography, 2 hours biology, 2 hours physics, 1 hour sport, 1 hour art, 1 hour music.
Impressive combination of languages, maths and philosophy. What was that called ? We didn't have an option like that. If we had, I'd have taken it.


When I started working for a salary, I found it strange and unusual to have nothing to do in the evening and on weekends ! :D
Yes, entry level jobs were a walk in the park compared to school.

By the way, if anyone thinks this was hard, you should have tried a Jesuit run school. That was 24/7.

[Americano]

Wow. That seems light. In high school, my days started at 8 and ended at 3 - not much shorter than a standard working day (and for me, longer, when you factored in sports/clubs making my day 8 until 5 or 6).

That's about what mine was. The reason it sticks in my mind is because unless one declared going out for sports (which made PE the final class of the day) one could get stuck with first period PE which in that era included calisthenics at 8:10AM (after suiting up) followed by a shower in a huge, cold shower room at 8:40AM, winters included.

[Michael]

Yes, entry level jobs were a walk in the park compared to school.
Must be a cultural thing. I worked full time for a few years between high school and university so when I got to university, I found it very easy because the pace was so relaxed and there was no pressure at all compared with actually working for a living. I always found school was always very laid back and stress free compared with actual work - even at entry level jobs.

I used to laugh at my fellow students complaining about some paper due in OMG TWO WEEKS!!!! :eek:

From my experience in the working world, I thought they were lucky it wasn't due at 9am the next day as would be the custom in the working world.

[Americano]

That's not the point. China has its own culture, and overbearing. They don't need the US and certainly not the US educational system.

Asians are the smallest by population US minority and currently make-up something like 30% of university engineering/scientific classes. I believe I read where 30% of US scientific PhD holders engaged in the business community are immigrants (not predominately Asians).

[Sucre]

Asians are the smallest by population US minority and currently make-up something like 30% of university engineering/scientific classes. I believe I read where 30% of US scientific PhD holders engaged in the business community are immigrants (not predominately Asians).
Oh yes. Asians for sure : Koreans, Japanese etc. But not China. China does not need us and is not afraid to confront American hegemony. The proposal to switch the dollar based system for an international currency comes from them. I think that it is a country with more than just economy in mind. They have a sense of leadership and of their cultural superiority and wouldn't want their elite to get spoiled in a western American university (except if it is for a year in the course of the entire university cursus)

[Americano]

Oh yes. Asians for sure : Koreans, Japanese etc. But not China. China does not need us and is not afraid to confront American hegemony. The proposal to switch the dollar based system for an international currency comes from them. I think that it is a country with more than just economy in mind. They have a sense of leadership and of their cultural superiority and wouldn't want their elite to get spoiled in a western American university (except if it is for a year in the course of the entire university cursus)

I was referring to Chinese-Americans in the US university system. They inevitably perform as superior students.

[Sucre]

I was referring to Chinese-Americans in the US university system. They inevitably perform as superior students.
Are these Chinese Chines or Chinese Americans ?

[Michael]

Are these Chinese Chines or Chinese Americans ?
This is why I loathe "hyphenated" nationalities. They are nonsense (or racist).

Either one is Chinese or American. One can't be both.

One certainly can be American of Chinese descent, but that's not the same thing.

Sorry for this topic digression! :D

[Sucre]

Either one is Chinese or American. One can't be both.!
But you do make the distinction between minorities in the US, don't you ? (I know you are canadian)

[Americano]

To be proper and not offend the Grand Poo Pah, Americans of Chinese descent.

[Michael]

But you do make the distinction between minorities in the US, don't you ? (I know you are canadian)
I refuse to use the term "African American" (for example) or Italian Americans or Hispanic Americans (or any other form).

In terms of Europe, I wouldn't accept "Arabic-French" or "Turkish-Germans" either.

I do not accept any hyphenated nationalities at all. I consider it racist to be so obsessed with ethnic origin.

[partofme]

I refuse to use the term "African American" (for example) or Italian Americans or Hispanic Americans (or any other form).

In terms of Europe, I wouldn't accept "Arabic-French" or "Turkish-Germans" either.

I do not accept any hyphenated nationalities at all. I consider it racist to be so obsessed with ethnic origin.

What makes it seem more racist is that they are only really used here for minorities. You never hear of people going around calling themselves Irish/German-Americans.

[Michael]

What makes it seem more racist is that they are only really used here for minorities. You never hear of people going around calling themselves Irish/German-Americans.

Exactly. You never hear the term British Americans and they are the most numerous of all. Lots of French and Dutch Americans too.

[Dominick]

What do you do with people of mixed descent ?

"Hi, I'm Jill, I'm a African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese American. My father was an African-Peruvian American and my mother is Norwegian-Chinese American.
I'm marrying Jim who's a Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish American.

We're very proud we will have African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese-Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish children. That's a growing community in the USA. OUr first child will be the third member already."

Besides, there are countries in Africa you know.

[drgoodtrips]

What do you do with people of mixed descent ?

"Hi, I'm Jill, I'm a African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese American. My father was an African-Peruvian American and my mother is Norwegian-Chinese American.
I'm marrying Jim who's a Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish American.

We're very proud we will have African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese-Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish children. That's a growing community in the USA. OUr first child will be the third member already."

Besides, there are countries in Africa you know.

Not if you're George W Bush:

"Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease."

-George Bush, 2001

[Americano]

What makes it seem more racist is that they are only really used here for minorities. You never hear of people going around calling themselves Irish/German-Americans.

But many do take pride in identifying themselves as black, Brit, German, Irish, Italian, etc. without American attached. I've never had a negative reaction from anyone in pertinent discussions by referring to them by their blood heritage. I know Americans who, depending on our level of association in personal conversation, commonly refer to themselves as black, African American, dago, mick and kraut to empathize a national stereotype reaction.

I do agree with Michael in that for formal discourse legal nationality followed by of blank decent is the correct way to address that issue. My formality at this point in life is pretty loose, especially when relaxed.

[Americano]

What do you do with people of mixed descent ?

"Hi, I'm Jill, I'm a African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese American. My father was an African-Peruvian American and my mother is Norwegian-Chinese American.
I'm marrying Jim who's a Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish American.

We're very proud we will have African-Norwegian-Peruvian-Chinese-Korean-Dutch-Italian-Irish children. That's a growing community in the USA. OUr first child will be the third member already."

For more efficient conversation they definitely need to structure acronyms that roll off the tongue.

Besides, there are countries in Africa you know.

I've experienced occasions where someone addressed as African American clarifies such with 'I'm originally from Kenya' or another African country. I've also experienced the same reactions when people of Hispanic decent are addressed as Hispanic and define their descent as country of origin. Not quite as pushy as a Brit being identified as from the UK.

Americans have discriminated against 'minority' immigrants since they resettled the country. Hell, we tried genocide on, I can't resist, Native Americans.

[Greendruid]

I'm curious to know if Whites with ancestors from African countries who are first or second generation Americans can/should/would refer to themselves as African Americans. I don't see why this would be technically problematic - I'd love to see the faces of some scholarship granters in a university system bestowing a scholarship on a White "African American" because, well, he/she qualified for the application. :rofl:

[Americano]

I'm curious to know if Whites with ancestors from African countries who are first or second generation Americans can/should/would refer to themselves as African Americans. I don't see why this would be technically problematic - I'd love to see the faces of some scholarship granters in a university system bestowing a scholarship on a White "African American" because, well, he/she qualified for the application. :rofl:
Interesting thought and certainly possible. I'm surprised Alabama, Georgia and some of the other states with racist histories haven't already used it as a matter of policy.

[The Drunk Girl]

Exactly. You never hear the term British Americans and they are the most numerous of all. Lots of French and Dutch Americans too.

So would the same apply to a French-Canadian and a Canadian in your opinion?
---------------------------------------
Maybe minorities are so adamant in defining their race(s) because they are the minority and in some cases it is "obvious" that they are different. Being a minority myself, I have encountered many people who are curious to my background, and are uncomfortable with asking questions ( ex: "Do you prefer to be called African-American or black?"..."are you mixed/biracial?" and the occasional dumbass questions like, "How do you keep your tan year around?" :tape:) After so many years of experiencing that, it somewhat becomes a "second nature" to go ahead and define it.

(Sorry I am behind in the conversation due to moving but I am glad to be back:D)

[Michael]

So would the same apply to a French-Canadian and a Canadian in your opinion?
Absolutely. I tend to call the militant ones "les Quebecois" to acknowledge that they aren't actually Canadian.

Maybe minorities are so adamant in defining their race(s) because they are the minority and in some cases it is "obvious" that they are different. Being a minority myself, I have encountered many people who are curious to my background, and are uncomfortable with asking questions ( ex: "Do you prefer to be called African-American or black?"..."are you mixed/biracial?" and the occasional dumbass questions like, "How do you keep your tan year around?" :tape:) After so many years of experiencing that, it somewhat becomes a "second nature" to go ahead and define it.

I know why people do it, I just don't like it or accept it.

There is only one race and it is the human race. All other conceptions of race are just abitrary nonsense that has no scientific basis in fact.

[The Drunk Girl]

Absolutely. I tend to call the militant ones "les Quebecois" to acknowledge that they aren't actually Canadian.


I know why people do it, I just don't like it or accept it.

There is only one race and it is the human race. All other conceptions of race are just abitrary nonsense that has no scientific basis in fact.

Well, I like your idea:) But, you know the damn government just has to have their statistics on how each race or minority scores on tests or how well they do in school. Circling "other" for my race really pissed me off on those things. Oh well

[Michael]

Well, I like your idea:) But, you know the damn government just has to have their statistics on how each race or minority scores on tests or how well they do in school. Circling "other" for my race really pissed me off on those things. Oh well

I've long been part of a successful initiative to force the Canadian government to list "Canadian" as an "ethnicity" on official listings. They don't like it and fought it for years but democratic pressure can work miracles sometimes! :D

Needless to say, from humble roots, this 'classification' is the fastest growing ethnic denomination in Canada according to census figures. Once we get that number up over a few million, those poor statisticians with their obsession for races will be thwarted by having their satistics skewed to non-functionality. :)

There were only some 22,000 "Canadians" listed in the 1991 official census. The 2001 census shows several hundred thousand of them...

The goal here is to muddy up the data pool by not giving the racially-obsessed fanatics the numbers they need to make their racial-based arguments. Race doesn't exist, so counting it is silly. And "ethnicity" is just a modern codeword for "race" anyway. I certainly NEVER reply to any official question about my 'ethnicity' - unless I can say "Canadian" or "Human". If those answers aren't permitted, I consider the question to be biased and invalid.

[Sucre]

If I may come back to my original question to Americano, let say that in my books, Chinese Americans are Americans. The 30% statistics simply proves that, as a minority, they are more successful than other minorities in the US.

If China continues on its present course, I doubt it will want to "americanize" its elite by sending it to American universities for its education. Considering its thousand years culture, its contempt for western civilisation, its collectivistic mentality - rather than individualistic - China is more likely to build is own system of educatin and keep its elite at home (unless for spying the west of course ...)

As to the rest of the discussion, if I may put my two cents, let say that I, personally, am not shocked by the differentiation. After all the US is a land of immigrants. It may be racist in essence, but, let be clear about this : usually, it is the minorities themselves who want to be singled out. The German Americans and the Swede Americans are not mentioned because they belong to the majority.

In France, it is at present still anti-constitutional to ask the kind of questions the Drunck Girl was asking about. The République is One and Unique and all its Citizens are Equal. It may change with Sarkozy, half Hungarian himself for that matter, but that is not the point. Considering the importance of non integrated minorities, it seems a bit hypocritical to make believe that all groups have the same equal chances. So, for an example, if as a government, your politics is to introduce a system of positive discrimination at universities, it is necessary to ask applicants for their social/ ethnic origin.

I must say that I have mixed feelings about the whole issue, but no set opinion yet.:ummm:

[Leprechaun]

I have to say Michael I completely agree with you on race. There is only one race. I recall doing the SATS when I was ~12 and I remember the ethncitiy box and we were told not to answer that. In Ireland we don't have such groupings for education et al. and I'm glad we don't, each student is their own person.
What I also find issue with is the fact that it has:
White
African-American
Puerto-Rican
Hispanic
Asian
Other

I would really love to see one which said:
Non-White
German
British
Irish
French
Scandanavian
Other white
It would really mess with the whole system and show it for what it is. Really though they shouldn't even ask your 'race'.

[Dominick]

Race is about as relevant concerning information about a person as shoesize. Maybe even less. I have a heck of a lot more in common with say Jimi Hendrix than with any of the folks in my immediate lily white neighbourhood.

The categories being used in the States already indicate what a silly notion they really are. It may somewhat describe the general origin of people over there but if the same categories were applied worldwide they would be hilarious. Where does an Egyptian fit in ? Afro-American ? :ummm: An Australian aboriginal ? Are all 'Asians' so similar? Ahmadinejad = a Korean = an Indonesian :ummm:

And WTF is a Hispanic ? Are you Hispanic as a Basque ? a Portuguese ? an inhibant of Andorra ? Are the Boers White Afro-Americans ? :shrug: