Alternative Medicine

[The Drunk Girl]

Read this while I was at work and thought it seemed pretty interesting. Working in the medical field myself, I'm not quite sure how into some of this I am...

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12541621?source=rss

[Donkey]

I'm alternatively medicating myself right now. ;)

[wphelan]

Read this while I was at work and thought it seemed pretty interesting. Working in the medical field myself, I'm not quite sure how into some of this I am...

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12541621?source=rss

Although I'm not in the medical field, I know how little I am in to that. If placebos are going to start being used outside experimental medicine, there's more wrong with our health care system than I thought.

[Americano]

Anything that threatens big pharma's iron grip on medical treatment will be limited to big pharma's placebos and talk.

[partofme]

Anything that threatens big pharma's iron grip on medical treatment will be limited to big pharma's placebos and talk.

Maybe there is some alternative treatments out there that really work as well as mainstream medicine but from my experience it's mostly crap and big companies that unlike pharmaceutical companies are not regulated at all by the FDA selling useless plants in pill form. Then you have stuff like sweat lodges and faith healers. Then you have the whole cleansing crazy which is pretty much extremely overpriced laxatives that make you crap the same stuff earlier than you would have anyway. I'm not fan of pharmaceutical companies for other reasons and hate to sound like their defender but just because they are bad doesn't mean alternative medicine works.

[Americano]

Maybe there is some alternative treatments out there that really work as well as mainstream medicine but from my experience it's mostly crap and big companies that unlike pharmaceutical companies are not regulated at all by the FDA selling useless plants in pill form. Then you have stuff like sweat lodges and faith healers. Then you have the whole cleansing crazy which is pretty much extremely overpriced laxatives that make you crap the same stuff earlier than you would have anyway. I'm not fan of pharmaceutical companies for other reasons and hate to sound like their defender but just because they are bad doesn't mean alternative medicine works.

'Alternative medicine' also includes proved remedies that are legally banned through big pharma efforts.

Big pharma fights federal legalization of medical marijuana, opium, morphine, heroin and cocaine with every available resource including their big gun, The Interstate Commerce Act. In their eyes some schmuck dying a horrible death by cancer needs their $100 painkiller pill or shot versus a $2 injection of heroin or morphine and the MD gets a spiff for prescribing their brand. No different than dentists supporting the ban on cocaine because they get spiffs for using big pharma painkillers.

[partofme]

'Alternative medicine' also includes proved remedies that are legally banned through big pharma efforts.

Big pharma fights federal legalization of medical marijuana, opium, morphine, heroin and cocaine with every available resource including their big gun, The Interstate Commerce Act. In their eyes some schmuck dying a horrible death by cancer needs their $100 painkiller pill or shot versus a $2 injection of heroin or morphine and the MD gets a spiff for prescribing their brand. No different than dentists supporting the ban on cocaine because they get spiffs for using big pharma painkillers.

I agree about medical marijuana and I think all drugs should be legal and as far as heroin and cocaine go while I'm for legalization I would say it has as much to do with popular opinion and other reasons. Originally many of these drugs became illegal through attacks on immigrant population such as with opium and Chinese immigrants. I have no doubt that pharmaceuticals don't want these things allowed but at the same time I don't think that they are the only thing holding these things back from decriminalization.

[Americano]

I agree about medical marijuana and I think all drugs should be legal and as far as heroin and cocaine go while I'm for legalization I would say it has as much to do with popular opinion and other reasons. Originally many of these drugs became illegal through attacks on immigrant population such as with opium and Chinese immigrants. I have no doubt that pharmaceuticals don't want these things allowed but at the same time I don't think that they are the only thing holding these things back from decriminalization.

True, but their enormous lobbying clout in hand with fundie resistance have been the major obstacles in all states who have legalized medical marijuana. The current major challenge to federal legalization of Class 1 drugs (the alternative medicine and recreational applications) is big pharma and the enormous public spending in the war on drugs. Under our system of government the political and economic ramifications of diverting funding from DEA and other associated agencies that drills right down to muni LE operations is virtually impossible. It has to start at state levels.

[The Drunk Girl]

What I am not sure about is performing a ritual over a patient. In the paper here (I couldn't find it on the newspaper's website) showed the actual scene described in the first paragraph of the article. One of the nurses is waving her hands over the patient as part of this alternative form...Being a future nurse I'm not sure I could follow through with that if I was asked. Actually, I would probably laugh and say, "Save yourself some money and perform this shit at home by yourself for free."

[partofme]

What I am not sure about is performing a ritual over a patient. In the paper here (I couldn't find it on the newspaper's website) showed the actual scene described in the first paragraph of the article. One of the nurses is waving her hands over the patient as part of this alternative form...Being a future nurse I'm not sure I could follow through with that if I was asked. Actually, I would probably laugh and say, "Save yourself some money and perform this shit at home by yourself for free."


That's what I think of when somebody says alternative medicine. We have a couple natural remedy shops in my small town that sell crap to people that don't know better. I went into one just to check it out and they even had jewelry that you wear but can also dangle over medicine and if it swings above in in a certain direction and not the other than that means it's good. Pretty much it's works on the same principle as a Ouija board that is moved by the person or people touching it subconsciously. When I think of the things these places sell it reminds me of the old tonics and potions.

[The Drunk Girl]

That's what I think of when somebody says alternative medicine. We have a couple natural remedy shops in my small town that sell crap to people that don't know better. I went into one just to check it out and they even had jewelry that you wear but can also dangle over medicine and if it swings above in in a certain direction and not the other than that means it's good. Pretty much it's works on the same principle as a Ouija board that is moved by the person or people touching it subconsciously. When I think of the things these places sell it reminds me of the old tonics and potions.

Yeah, instead of people going to a gyno they'll just pull out the ol' needle test to tell you what sex your baby is going to be and how many little critters you're going to pop out.:lol:

[partofme]

Yeah, instead of people going to a gyno they'll just pull out the ol' needle test to tell you what sex your baby is going to be and how many little critters you're going to pop out.:lol:

When Christie was pregnant I was amazed at how many people offered to do things like that and really took it seriously. Between people I worked with and she worked with and then her huge family it was probably a dozen people that insisted on the pencil over the wrist trick. They all said that they where never wrong yet they didn't all give the same answer and ended up mostly wrong in the results. :lol:

[The Drunk Girl]

When Christie was pregnant I was amazed at how many people offered to do things like that and really took it seriously. Between people I worked with and she worked with and then her huge family it was probably a dozen people that insisted on the pencil over the wrist trick. They all said that they where never wrong yet they didn't all give the same answer and ended up mostly wrong in the results. :lol:

Well at least she got results. When they pulled the needle test on me it showed that I was barren. That's nice, huh?:confused:

[partofme]

Well at least she got results. When they pulled the needle test on me it showed that I was barren. That's nice, huh?:confused:

So when are you and Chet going to prove them wrong. :D

[The Drunk Girl]

So when are you and Chet going to prove them wrong. :D

That's a good question :shrug:

[The Drunk Girl]

...but he knew what he was getting into knowing that prior so he can't get too pissed if I don't have any ;)

[Greendruid]

I think all of this needs to be referred back to our many threads (too many to have me go back and re-post them here) that concern the differing ideologies in place here. All of you who are opposed to anything but proven medical science have that position because you were raised to have that position. There are so many cultures around the world that have no concept of the scientific method and yet have developed very effective cures and methods of healing that would have you laughing.

If you hold the position that illness is only physiological and, thus, the same as disease, then you will always pooh-pooh alternative methods that stray from this model. The fact is, the world is filled with people and healers in other cultures who have no such model as their primary one and recognise a spiritual component, an emotional component, an ancestral component, a magical component, etc., to suffering illness. All of them are different and many of them are indeed much older than modern medicine. In fact, you probably owe your existence to an ancestor or two that was a patient of such a healer and was cured of their illness.

And before you bring up the survival rates card, in the end, we're all dead. What value is there to a life ended with struggling for a cure that doesn't exist. I watched my father die for seven weeks in a hopeless effort to cure him of something he was largely stoic about for several months leading up to his death. Our medical system needs more humanism and less medicalisation in my opinion. Our culture needs a better attitude towards illness and death.

[The Drunk Guy]

I think all of this needs to be referred back to our many threads (too many to have me go back and re-post them here) that concern the differing ideologies in place here. All of you who are opposed to anything but proven medical science have that position because you were raised to have that position. There are so many cultures around the world that have no concept of the scientific method and yet have developed very effective cures and methods of healing that would have you laughing.

If you hold the position that illness is only physiological and, thus, the same as disease, then you will always pooh-pooh alternative methods that stray from this model. The fact is, the world is filled with people and healers in other cultures who have no such model as their primary one and recognise a spiritual component, an emotional component, an ancestral component, a magical component, etc., to suffering illness. All of them are different and many of them are indeed much older than modern medicine. In fact, you probably owe your existence to an ancestor or two that was a patient of such a healer and was cured of their illness.

And before you bring up the survival rates card, in the end, we're all dead. What value is there to a life ended with struggling for a cure that doesn't exist. I watched my father die for seven weeks in a hopeless effort to cure him of something he was largely stoic about for several months leading up to his death. Our medical system needs more humanism and less medicalisation in my opinion. Our culture needs a better attitude towards illness and death.
Do you have statistics or research reports on this?

[Dominick]

I'm with Greendruid on this. The current Western commercially driven reductionist approach to health is after all only some 70 years old. It's not like before that or elsewhere people were dropping down in the street two at a time on every corner.
In fact, many of the molecules that are now privatized and "patented" have been known to other cultures for centuries and occur naturally in the vegetation, especially in rainforests. The only difference is that in those other contexts the same molecule was not actually known or understood in the scientific sense and the treatment was therefore embellished by ritual. By criticizing or dismissing the ritual due to scepticism one forgets that it's not the ritual that does the healing (although it may well have a benefical additional impact but that's another story) but the molecule.
Alas I can't find the link anymore but there was a recent report on the BBC site that mentioned the extensive research that's been done in deciphering Mayan stelae to find out which plants exactly they depict and how they were being used by them. It would appear that the big pharmaceutical companies are much less sceptic about this than the general public.
Of course once they do decipher it, the previously freely available molecule will be patented, processed and packaged and cost you or the healthcare services 50 €. Which is what health is all about after all. At least today it is.

[partofme]

The thing is if I'm going to take the time to take part in these things or pay money to do them then I want some concrete evidence they work. I'm completely open to the idea there are alternatives out there that work but I'm not simply willing to take somebody's word for it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909/

And if these companies are trying to figure out these treatments then I'm happy to pay for them because presently I either do not have access to them or have no way of knowing which ones are really credible.

[Dominick]

The thing is if I'm going to take the time to take part in these things or pay money to do them then I want some concrete evidence they work. I'm completely open to the idea there are alternatives out there that work but I'm not simply willing to take somebody's word for it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909/

And if these companies are trying to figure out these treatments then I'm happy to pay for them because presently I either do not have access to them or have no way of knowing which ones are really credible.
How much does MSNBC get paid from pharmaceutical advertisers ? It's a serious question. How can a company that's dependent on the advertising money of the pharmaceutical industry -and we're talking real money here- be expected to report objectively on these matters ?

[partofme]

How much does MSNBC get paid from pharmaceutical advertisers ? It's a serious question. How can a company that's dependent on the advertising money of the pharmaceutical industry -and we're talking real money here- be expected to report objectively on these matters ?

The studies are government funded according to the article. If you can't trust either private or publicly funded studies then what can you trust? The only other source one can look for on these things is the companies that sell herbal remedies and they sure as hell would be biased. What bugs me is that people buy these remedies which are also a big business while talking about how awful the pharmaceutical companies are but unlike them these herbs are sold pretty much unregulated. I have no way of knowing how well they really work or even if I'm getting what they say they are on the label.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090609/ap_on_bi_ge/us_med_unproven_remedies_safety;_ylt=AuNG2jCn4xVSy d84qy1c9Sas0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFkYWhnbXBuBHBvcwMxNTIEc 2VjA2FjY29yZGlvbl9oZWFsdGgEc2xrA3Rlc3Rzc2hvd21hbg--

[The Drunk Guy]

My view is that I want evidence. If scientific evidence isn't available, then I, personally, am willing to except anecdotal evidence. However, that's for my health. For the health of others, such as loved ones and children, I demand scientific evidence of the validity of the treatment. Anecdotes are not science and that is all herbal remedies have to offer, which is not good enough for my (hypothetical) children.

[Americano]

I think all of this needs to be referred back to our many threads (too many to have me go back and re-post them here) that concern the differing ideologies in place here. All of you who are opposed to anything but proven medical science have that position because you were raised to have that position. There are so many cultures around the world that have no concept of the scientific method and yet have developed very effective cures and methods of healing that would have you laughing.

If you hold the position that illness is only physiological and, thus, the same as disease, then you will always pooh-pooh alternative methods that stray from this model. The fact is, the world is filled with people and healers in other cultures who have no such model as their primary one and recognise a spiritual component, an emotional component, an ancestral component, a magical component, etc., to suffering illness. All of them are different and many of them are indeed much older than modern medicine. In fact, you probably owe your existence to an ancestor or two that was a patient of such a healer and was cured of their illness.

And before you bring up the survival rates card, in the end, we're all dead. What value is there to a life ended with struggling for a cure that doesn't exist. I watched my father die for seven weeks in a hopeless effort to cure him of something he was largely stoic about for several months leading up to his death. Our medical system needs more humanism and less medicalisation in my opinion. Our culture needs a better attitude towards illness and death.

I've experienced the horrible deaths by cancer of my father, father-in-law and oldest best friend. All were put through the fruitless radiation and chemotherapy drills and none had any physical or mental relief after being told their conditions were inoperable until opiates were provided to remove them from reality. Thankfully I reside in Oregon. For those of you unfamiliar with US 'humanity', Oregon has the only legislation in the US for allowing physician assisted suicide when untreatable, terminal medical conditions exist. Though I'd probably chase the dragon under those circumstances without the 'treatments'.

[The Drunk Guy]

I've experienced the horrible deaths by cancer of my father, father-in-law and oldest best friend. All were put through the fruitless radiation and chemotherapy drills and none had any physical or mental relief after being told their conditions were inoperable until opiates were provided to remove them from reality. Thankfully I reside in Oregon. For those of you unfamiliar with US 'humanity', Oregon has the only legislation in the US for allowing physician assisted suicide when untreatable, terminal medical conditions exist. Though I'd probably chase the dragon under those circumstances without the 'treatments'.
I'm with you. I watched my grandfather lie in a hospital bed in his living room for two months in an opiate glaze before he died. I decided then I didn't want to go like that. While I like the scientific treatments to "suffering" conditions (GERD, OSA), I would prefer to avoid the life depreciating procedures that go along with fatal conditions.

[drgoodtrips]

I'm with Greendruid on this. The current Western commercially driven reductionist approach to health is after all only some 70 years old. It's not like before that or elsewhere people were dropping down in the street two at a time on every corner.
In fact, many of the molecules that are now privatized and "patented" have been known to other cultures for centuries and occur naturally in the vegetation, especially in rainforests. The only difference is that in those other contexts the same molecule was not actually known or understood in the scientific sense and the treatment was therefore embellished by ritual. By criticizing or dismissing the ritual due to scepticism one forgets that it's not the ritual that does the healing (although it may well have a benefical additional impact but that's another story) but the molecule.
Alas I can't find the link anymore but there was a recent report on the BBC site that mentioned the extensive research that's been done in deciphering Mayan stelae to find out which plants exactly they depict and how they were being used by them. It would appear that the big pharmaceutical companies are much less sceptic about this than the general public.
Of course once they do decipher it, the previously freely available molecule will be patented, processed and packaged and cost you or the healthcare services 50 €. Which is what health is all about after all. At least today it is.

I think you and I see this the same way, largely. If there is some ancient, spiritual that works, it is because somewhere, during the course of that ritual, some actual causal event is occurring, even if the practitioners of the spiritual process are oblivious or think that some God or spirit is just making things happen. And, I believe in studying those rituals, isolating potential causal factors, and parlaying them into whatever advantage can be had.

I think the problem occurs when people look at it the other way around. Rather than distilling the causal event from the mumbo-jumbo, a lot of people are just looking for the mumbo-jumbo itself. For instance, let's say that the Mayans or some other "native" culture had a ritual that involved dancing around a fire, eating some kind of nearby plant, blood-letting, and then sleeping for 12 hours and this was known to treat illness X. My approach would be to isolate the various activities and try them out as treatment for X. If that didn't work, perhaps the combination of some of the activities might work. Either way, you reduce the ritual to the causal event(s).

But, regarding what I was saying about above - people looking for the mumbo-jumbo - you have this whole cottage industry of non-native peoples who believe that the healing activity is just the fact of getting in touch with the natives or something. These people might be equally amenable to the "Mayan Treatment" that skips the eating of the plant and blood-letting in favor of buying stones that harness organic chi or something. That is, participants in this nonsense may not even be duplicating the actual, original rituals that work, opting instead to waste their time with what essentially amounts to the selling of snake oil branded with Indian decorations.

[Americano]

I think you and I see this the same way, largely. If there is some ancient, spiritual that works, it is because somewhere, during the course of that ritual, some actual causal event is occurring, even if the practitioners of the spiritual process are oblivious or think that some God or spirit is just making things happen. And, I believe in studying those rituals, isolating potential causal factors, and parlaying them into whatever advantage can be had.

I think the problem occurs when people look at it the other way around. Rather than distilling the causal event from the mumbo-jumbo, a lot of people are just looking for the mumbo-jumbo itself. For instance, let's say that the Mayans or some other "native" culture had a ritual that involved dancing around a fire, eating some kind of nearby plant, blood-letting, and then sleeping for 12 hours and this was known to treat illness X. My approach would be to isolate the various activities and try them out as treatment for X. If that didn't work, perhaps the combination of some of the activities might work. Either way, you reduce the ritual to the causal event(s).

But, regarding what I was saying about above - people looking for the mumbo-jumbo - you have this whole cottage industry of non-native peoples who believe that the healing activity is just the fact of getting in touch with the natives or something. These people might be equally amenable to the "Mayan Treatment" that skips the eating of the plant and blood-letting in favor of buying stones that harness organic chi or something. That is, participants in this nonsense may not even be duplicating the actual, original rituals that work, opting instead to waste their time with what essentially amounts to the selling of snake oil branded with Indian decorations.

For a moment I thought you were describing the plethora of self-help authors that dominate book sales.

[dannydesiliva]

Dear all,
Can any one tell me whether Indian board of alternative medicine
Course is ugc recognized ?
Regds

[housefull]

I accept with information:Maybe there is some alternative treatments out there that really work as well as mainstream medicine but from my experience it's mostly crap and big companies that unlike pharmaceutical companies are not regulated at all by the FDA selling useless plants in pill form

[SMadsen]

As a natural skeptic, I can't trust a product that takes faith in order to work. Unfortunately, this also means that it's not rocket science to figure out it's an extremely lucrative market.

[Americano]

As a natural skeptic, I can't trust a product that takes faith in order to work. Unfortunately, this also means that it's not rocket science to figure out it's an extremely lucrative market.


Big pharma discovered that fact long ago. In the US physicians now achieve godlike status similar to successful televangelists. I'm not saying all natural and synthetic medicines are useless but faith is a big factor. Otherwise placebos would be extinct.