Disaster looms for Europe.

[The Aussie]

Leave Turkey’s bid to join EU to us, Nicolas Sarkozy warns Barack Obama

Nicolas Sarkozy the French President warned his Omama yesterday to keep his nose out of the issue of Turkey’s membership of the European Union.
If Obama wants to join Turkey to anyone he is welcome to make it part of the United States, Sarkozy said.
President Obama used his first EU-US summit, on the eve of his visit to Turkey, to encourage European leaders to embrace the Muslim country and “anchor it in Europe.
An entry of Turkey into the EU would be disastrous as it means an entry to 50 million Turks to flood into all the countries of Europe bringing with them an imbalance to Islam and cheap labour that will destroy existing jobs.

[Dominick]

I agree that it was none of Obama's business to meddle in, even if I find myself thus in agreement with Sakozy of all people.

But I completely disagree that Turkey should not be a EU member. Turkey is not a muslim state, it is a secular state, in fact, in many aspects much more so than many Western countries.

And even if it were, so what ? The conditions for EU membership are pretty clear on things such as human rights issues and gender equality. Any fundamentalist interpretation of the Qu'ran would stand no chance. With Turkey in the bosom of the EU the chances of it ever becoming a fundamentalist state decrease many times over. The only thing in danger here is Islam in Turkey becoming secularized as pretty much all religions have become in Europe, including Christianity and Islam. A handful of extremists are no more representative for their religion as Monseigneur Lefebvre is for the catholic Church.

As for freedom of movement within the EU, that is one of the main ideas behind the Union in the first place. That's the goal, not a threat. Besides there are already living 3 million Turks within the current confines of the EU and that's not more of a problem than the fact that there are 10 million Belgians living in it.

Cheap labour finally is a socio-economical issue, not an ethnic one.

[The Aussie]

I agree that it was none of Obama's business to meddle in, even if I find myself thus in agreement with Sakozy of all people.

But I completely disagree that Turkey should not be a EU member. Turkey is not a muslim state, it is a secular state, in fact, in many aspects much more so than many Western countries.


As for freedom of movement within the EU, that is one of the main ideas behind the Union in the first place. That's the goal, not a threat. Besides there are already living 3 million Turks within the current confines of the EU and that's not more of a problem than the fact that there are 10 million Belgians living in it.

Cheap labour finally is a socio-economical issue, not an ethnic one.

Try a bit of reading Dominick. Like the endless anti Turkish riots in Germany now from just your 3 million. Here is just one below.

20.09.2008 Police Stop Anti-Islam Rally in Cologne After Violence Erupts



http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,3657786_1,00.jpg (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,3658793,00.html) Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Cologne residents turned out in large numbers to protest the far-right event (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,3658793,00.html)

German police Saturday canceled an anti-Islam congress organized by a far-right group on safety grounds in Cologne after the venue was blocked by opponents. Radical leftists also fought riot police on the streets.


A far-right group Pro-Cologne had called the rally to oppose a decision by local authorities in Cologne to allow the construction of a mosque with a high dome and minarets.

It invited nationalist groups from around Europe to join the "Stop Islam" rally to fight what it called the "Islamisation and immigration invasion" of Germany and Europe.
But only 50 supporters of the anti-immigrant group Pro Cologne managed to reach a city square for the scheduled rally against plans to construct a grand mosque in the German city.
.................................................. .................................................. .......................

Religion in Turkey

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Selimiye_Mosque%2C_Dome.jpg/280px-Selimiye_Mosque%2C_Dome.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Selimiye_Mosque,_Dome.jpg) [/URL]
T


[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam"]Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Selimiye_Mosque,_Dome.jpg) is the largest religion of Turkey. More than 99 percent of the population is Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim), mostly Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni). The Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) community, a group of non-orthodox Muslims, make up 1–10 percent of the population. Christianity (Oriental Orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy), Greek Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox) and Armenian Apostolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic)) and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) are the other religions in practice, but the non-Muslim population declined in the early 2000s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%932009)

[Dominick]

Try a bit of reading Dominick.
I have been known to do exactly that. No worries there.


Like the endless anti Turkish riots in Germany now from just your 3 million. Here is just one below.

20.09.2008 Police Stop Anti-Islam Rally in Cologne After Violence Erupts



http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,3657786_1,00.jpg (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,3658793,00.html) Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Cologne residents turned out in large numbers to protest the far-right event (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,3658793,00.html)

German police Saturday canceled an anti-Islam congress organized by a far-right group on safety grounds in Cologne after the venue was blocked by opponents. Radical leftists also fought riot police on the streets.

A far-right group Pro-Cologne had called the rally to oppose a decision by local authorities in Cologne to allow the construction of a mosque with a high dome and minarets.

It invited nationalist groups from around Europe to join the "Stop Islam" rally to fight what it called the "Islamisation and immigration invasion" of Germany and Europe.
But only 50 supporters of the anti-immigrant group Pro Cologne managed to reach a city square for the scheduled rally against plans to construct a grand mosque in the German city.
.................................................. .................................................. .......................
As your link mentions, "Cologne residents turned out in large numbers to protest the far-right event", and not vice versa. The extreme right is loud and gets much media attention but it's not at all representative for the general population.
Look at the results of the latest federal elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Germany#Latest_election_results): The NPD had barely 2% of the vote. That's 49 out of 50 people who do not vote on and anti-immigrant and/or racist bias.
Or read this article (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,579661,00.html)from the Germany-based Der Spiegel. The extreme right groups were and are massively overwhelmed by the general population in the very city where the mosque is to be built.
So who is the problem here really ? Extreme right fringe groups that resurrect the memory of the darkest pages in Germazn history or the general population, including the Turkish and other immigrants ?


Religion in Turkey

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Selimiye_Mosque%2C_Dome.jpg/280px-Selimiye_Mosque%2C_Dome.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Selimiye_Mosque,_Dome.jpg) [/URL]
T


[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam"]Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Selimiye_Mosque,_Dome.jpg) is the largest religion of Turkey. More than 99 percent of the population is Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim), mostly Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni). The Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) community, a group of non-orthodox Muslims, make up 1–10 percent of the population. Christianity (Oriental Orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy), Greek Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox) and Armenian Apostolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic)) and Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) are the other religions in practice, but the non-Muslim population declined in the early 2000s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000%E2%80%932009)



I'm well aware that the large majority in Turkey is Muslim, but that doesn't make Turkey a muslim state anymore than a majority of Christians in Germany makes Gerrmany a Christian state. It's the nature of the political organization and its laws in a country that decide whether a country -as a state- is secular or religious.

Turkey's laws on wearing the burqa or the headscarf e.g. are much stricter than those in France or Germany. In fact, I know of Turkish young women that come study at the Sorbonne or a similar university because it allows them to wear any of these vestments, which they can't in say Istanbul or Ankara. Secularism is even inscribed in the constitution of Turkey.

[The Aussie]

You haven't seen riots until Turkey gets into the EU and flood their millions throughout Europe. It could amount to a civil war.
As an Australian if Obama was wanting Indonesia to join in a union with Australia with their 200 million Moslems, I have to tell you something that you need to sit down and contemplate if you don't immediately grasp it.
I WOULDN'T WANT IT AND WOULD RIOT MYSELF.
Now if that is good enough for me, it is good enough for Germans too.

And it's good enough for Americans who are madly building fences on the border with Mexico to keep their hordes out of the US.

[Donkey]

I do not see how an influx of Turkish immigrants, Muslim or otherwise, will result in a civil war in Europe anymore than the sustained immigration of Mexican (and other Hispanic nationality) immigrants will (has) result(ed) in a civil war in the United States. In my opinion, US immigration policy is as misguided as any in the Western world (with the exception of countries like Spain and Ireland), and only results in the further economic and social destabilization of our country.

I did have a longer and more reasoned response, but I accidentally lost the post and am drunk and wish to go to my girlfriend's for the night, so the above will have to do. Blame Captain Morgan and Smirnoff; the above will have to suffice.

[The Aussie]

Please stay drunk as I don't want to read anything at all from anyone about Islamic migration.

[Dominick]

You haven't seen riots until Turkey gets into the EU and flood their millions throughout Europe. It could amount to a civil war.
There are already 3 million Turks in Europe without any risk of civil war whatsoever. Besides, why would there be a flood once Turkey achieves EU-membership status. Turkey's economy has been doing much better than that of many of the actual EU members. Foreign investment in Turkey has been very considerable, not to a small extent due to measures that have been taken precisely in the light of future EU-membership.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the net migration at the time of membership would end up being towards Turkey.


As an Australian if Obama was wanting Indonesia to join in a union with Australia with their 200 million Moslems, I have to tell you something that you need to sit down and contemplate if you don't immediately grasp it.

Obama has nothing to do with this. The process was started long before anyone had ever heard of him. Incidentally, Bush would have favoured this too for the sake of the military installations in Turkey such as the airbase of Incirlik.


I WOULDN'T WANT IT AND WOULD RIOT MYSELF.
That's your right. I've got no problems with that.


Now if that is good enough for me, it is good enough for Germans too.
The Germans as a whole do want it and thus won't riot. A small minority of the extreme right may but that's their problem.


And it's good enough for Americans who are madly building fences on the border with Mexico to keep their hordes out of the US.
'their hordes' ? Since when are Mexicans Muslim ?
Anyway, building fences such as the Berlin Wall, the Hadrian Wall, the Great Wall of China, the one in Israel/Palestine or any other wall always fail to stem sociological tendencies in the long run. A waste of time, energy and resources if you ask me.

Please stay drunk as I don't want to read anything at all from anyone about Islamic migration.
Sorry, we don't do censorship.

[Michael]

Anyway, building fences such as the Berlin Wall, the Hadrian Wall, the Great Wall of China, the one in Israel/Palestine or any other wall always fail to stem sociological tendencies in the long run. A waste of time, energy and resources if you ask me.

Excellent point. :thumbsup:

Seems that many of these 'walls' in history have failed to achieve the objective of the builder's purpose.

[Greendruid]

You haven't seen riots until Turkey gets into the EU and flood their millions throughout Europe. It could amount to a civil war.
As an Australian if Obama was wanting Indonesia to join in a union with Australia with their 200 million Moslems, I have to tell you something that you need to sit down and contemplate if you don't immediately grasp it.
I WOULDN'T WANT IT AND WOULD RIOT MYSELF.
Now if that is good enough for me, it is good enough for Germans too.

And it's good enough for Americans who are madly building fences on the border with Mexico to keep their hordes out of the US.

Just to let you know, something you may not be aware of living on the other side of the globe, I lived about 50 miles from the Mexican border in the state of New Mexico and there are two approaches to illegal Mexican immigration. One is the approach of the Minutemen who post private watches at the desert border crossings to intimidate Mexicans trying to cross over and who influence the government to build a massive wall/fence in certain sections of the border. The other, and probably closer to the official unspoken approach, is to turn a blind eye, naturalise as many of them as possible as quickly as possible and continue benefitting from them performing all the crappy jobs that exist in the US that native-born Americans would never do. Picking tobacco in 40C heat is not included under the file of "jobs I would do" for most Americans. The sections that are not being fenced/walled off are precisely those that have the highest traffic flow. This is intentional, I assure you. The bottom line is that illegal Mexican workers provide a cheap labour force in the US.

[The Aussie]

'their hordes' ? Since when are Mexicans Muslim

Another issue regarding Hispanics in US.
The news was published in New Mexican website on October 6, claiming that the number of Hispanics leaning to Islam is increasing. It explains the life of a Muslim Hispanic who was born in Colombia and is now living in US. The population of Hispanic Muslims has increased 30 percent to some 200,000- although it is still very few in comparison to the number of Christians in US- since 1999, estimates Ali Khan, national director of the American Muslim Council in Chicago. This growing trend to Islam by Hispanics may be assumed as a consequence of 9/11 terrorist attacks and also the collision between two burgeoning minority groups, means Muslims and Hispanics. It is important to notice that there are several similarities in faith between Hispanics and Muslims such as family- orientation, being religious, poverty, health care and issues regarding immigration.

[Donkey]

Another issue regarding Hispanics in US.
The news was published in New Mexican website on October 6, claiming that the number of Hispanics leaning to Islam is increasing. It explains the life of a Muslim Hispanic who was born in Colombia and is now living in US. The population of Hispanic Muslims has increased 30 percent to some 200,000- although it is still very few in comparison to the number of Christians in US- since 1999, estimates Ali Khan, national director of the American Muslim Council in Chicago. This growing trend to Islam by Hispanics may be assumed as a consequence of 9/11 terrorist attacks and also the collision between two burgeoning minority groups, means Muslims and Hispanics. It is important to notice that there are several similarities in faith between Hispanics and Muslims such as family- orientation, being religious, poverty, health care and issues regarding immigration.
First of all, so what?

Second of all, a Muslim born in Colombia should come as no surprise as there is a small but solid Arab diaspora in South America. The shawarma joints all over Quito come to mind. You might not know it, but Colombian pop star Shakira is half Lebanese.

[The Aussie]

Donkey quote: First of all, so what?

So I was just pointing out to Dominick that there are Mexican Moslems in the US. Two hundred thousand of them in fact.

[Dominick]

Donkey quote: First of all, so what?

So I was just pointing out to Dominick that there are Mexican Moslems in the US. Two hundred thousand of them in fact.

Hispanic muslims, yes, but not Mexican ones.
Official data estimates in the 2000 census show that there are 1,500 Muslims in Mexico, representing 0.0015 percent of the total population. In recent years, conversions to Islam may have increased this number by between 1,500 and 3,000 people.
I don't see how a small proportion of at most 3,000 can transform into 200,000.

Then again, I've always found both the need for and the nature of ethnic classification in the US to be most bizarre.

[Americano]

Just to let you know, something you may not be aware of living on the other side of the globe, I lived about 50 miles from the Mexican border in the state of New Mexico and there are two approaches to illegal Mexican immigration. One is the approach of the Minutemen who post private watches at the desert border crossings to intimidate Mexicans trying to cross over and who influence the government to build a massive wall/fence in certain sections of the border. The other, and probably closer to the official unspoken approach, is to turn a blind eye, naturalise as many of them as possible as quickly as possible and continue benefitting from them performing all the crappy jobs that exist in the US that native-born Americans would never do. Picking tobacco in 40C heat is not included under the file of "jobs I would do" for most Americans. The sections that are not being fenced/walled off are precisely those that have the highest traffic flow. This is intentional, I assure you. The bottom line is that illegal Mexican workers provide a cheap labour force in the US.

It is a low cost labor force and it is being utilized by a great number of US industries who are unable to attract 'American' labor. In my area 25% less agricultural products will be harvested this year due to farmers who formerly employed immigrant labor being intimidated by the potential of ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) raids, criminal charges and fines. Those agricultural products will be imported to meet demand in a country that's a net food importer, yet another blow to the US current account balance. Stupidity in a country populated by immigrants.

[Donkey]

Donkey quote: First of all, so what?

So I was just pointing out to Dominick that there are Mexican Moslems in the US. Two hundred thousand of them in fact.

Yeah, and what I'm asking, is so what?

[Dominick]

Speaking about border fences :D

[partofme]

Speaking about border fences :D


Fantastic. :)

[Donkey]

Speaking about border fences :D
While that is funny and gets it's point across, I do have a problem with it.

It legitimizes the European conquest of the Americas.

[Dominick]

It legitimizes the European conquest of the Americas.
In a way it does, yes. It's still funny though :D
I like it because its subject really is hypocrisy rather than immigration itself. Westerners that bitch about migration have very short memories. That includes Americans, Europeans and even Australians !

[SMadsen]

In a way it does, yes. It's still funny though :D
I like it because its subject really is hypocrisy rather than immigration itself. Westerners that bitch about migration have very short memories. That includes Americans, Europeans and even Australians !
Absolutely! :)

[Donkey]

Indeed. I have no delusions about my ancestry in terms of empire and butchery. One one side you have the annihilation of South American civilization, on the other you have the entire British empire, more specifically the subjugation of India (my Grandad was raised in boarding schools and vacationed with his cousins because his parents were busy in "the orient").

Wooo!

[Michael]

Then again, I've always found both the need for and the nature of ethnic classification in the US to be most bizarre.
Really?

Much of Europe has long used such ethnic classifications to strictly determine citizenship and other legal parameters.

Apart from official US policies requiring of "racial preferences" in hiring, ethnicity (and racism) in the USA is quite unofficial - quite unlike Europe where ethnicity (and racism) is an official designation with legal implications.

(I consider the issue of racism and immigration to be two topics that Europe - as a whole - has no moral authority to lecture anyone on - their history and current affairs are as equal or worse than that of the USA in these respects)