US Culture War - Conservatives vs Liberals

[Michael]

Liberals and conservatives are different, and it's not just about different policies. The mythology of mean, greedy conservatives versus generous, altruistic liberals, a mythology retailed by liberals, has no basis in fact. The evidence shows almost the exact reverse to be true more often than not. Peter Schweizer gives us that evidence in detail in "Makers and Takers."

Mr. Schweizer's conclusions - that conservatives on average work harder, are happier, lead closer family lives, are more honest, give more to charity, are more open-minded, less self-centered, less prone to anger and rage and whine a good deal less than liberals - are not what you've been hearing on television, reading in your daily newspaper or what your kids have been hearing from their professor in class.

Source: Book Review - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/17/conservatives-simply-work-harder/)

This is an antidote to all the "Conservatives are neanderthals" type threads I've seen over the years. Admitedly, the author is 'cultural warrior' for American conservatives and the paper carrying the review owned by the Moonies and one of the hard-line rightwing papers in the USA.

Caveat: The review cites various data points that are not referenced. These data points may be properly cited in the book (I don't know). If the survey data is valid, I suspect it is heavily colored by the weird fact that many 'actual liberals' in the USA self-identify as 'conservative' and many self-identified 'conservatives' are not conservative at all. Indeed, it is my opinion that 'self-labeling' of conservative-liberal in the USA is probably little more than nonsense (or simply tribal affiliation preference) based on flawed pop-cultural or conservative-propaganda definitions of the terms (and a very heated cultural war).

[greenapple]

Seems like politicians today are more concern on their welfare. Congressional policymakers know that bills will become regulation long before the general public. Occasionally, new regulations can impact the share prices of enormous corporations, opening the door for possible congressional inside trading. That's what foreign policy specialist Peter Schweizer suggests has been occurring for many years in his new novel “Throw Them All Out.” I read this here: Congressional insider trading alleged in new book (http://www.newsytype.com/13487-congressional-insider-trading/)

[Michael]

Seems like politicians today are more concern on their welfare. Congressional policymakers know that bills will become regulation long before the general public. Occasionally, new regulations can impact the share prices of enormous corporations, opening the door for possible congressional inside trading. That's what foreign policy specialist Peter Schweizer suggests has been occurring for many years in his new novel “Throw Them All Out.” I read this here: Congressional insider trading alleged in new book (http://www.newsytype.com/13487-congressional-insider-trading/)

Yes indeed, that's a huge scandal that should produce criminal charges, though I doubt if anything will come of it if the US media chooses to ignore it (as they usually do if there is no sex involved).

[Americano]

Seems like politicians today are more concern on their welfare. Congressional policymakers know that bills will become regulation long before the general public. Occasionally, new regulations can impact the share prices of enormous corporations, opening the door for possible congressional inside trading. That's what foreign policy specialist Peter Schweizer suggests has been occurring for many years in his new novel “Throw Them All Out.” I read this here: Congressional insider trading alleged in new book (http://www.newsytype.com/13487-congressional-insider-trading/)

Do people actually believe politicians seek office to fairly represent their constituents? In any democratic country? Or that anything regarding that representation in the US has actually changed in over 200 years? Please see my signature.

[Michael]

Do people actually believe politicians seek office to fairly represent their constituents? In any democratic country? Or that anything regarding that representation in the US has actually changed in over 200 years? Please see my signature.

US certainly. Washington/Congress seems to be built on the principle of self-enrichment.

But here in Canada, I honestly believe that most politicians, at least at the federal level are there for reasons of civic virtue. Sure there are some self-serving corrupt bastards and more than a few political ideologues, but overall, I'm impressed with the level of civic duty/virtue exhibited by the majority politicians here in Canada. We have quite a few that have given up lucrative or influential careers in other fields to serve in politics.

Even ex-PM Brian Mulroney, who is symbolic of the most corporate corrupt politician here in Canada seems like small fry by US standards. :shrug:

[Americano]

US certainly. Washington/Congress seems to be built on the principle of self-enrichment.

But here in Canada, I honestly believe that most politicians, at least at the federal level are there for reasons of civic virtue. Sure there are some self-serving corrupt bastards and more than a few political ideologues, but overall, I'm impressed with the level of civic duty/virtue exhibited by the majority politicians here in Canada. We have quite a few that have given up lucrative or influential careers in other fields to serve in politics.

Even ex-PM Brian Mulroney, who is symbolic of the most corporate corrupt politician here in Canada seems like small fry by US standards. :shrug:

My personal experience has been the higher the office the deeper things are buried. One can literally directly purchase zoning laws at local levels but favors at state and federal levels are so well hidden only the overly greedy and stupid get caught.

[Donkey]

Source: Book Review - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/17/conservatives-simply-work-harder/)

This is an antidote to all the "Conservatives are neanderthals" type threads I've seen over the years. Admitedly, the author is 'cultural warrior' for American conservatives and the paper carrying the review owned by the Moonies and one of the hard-line rightwing papers in the USA.

Caveat: The review cites various data points that are not referenced. These data points may be properly cited in the book (I don't know). If the survey data is valid, I suspect it is heavily colored by the weird fact that many 'actual liberals' in the USA self-identify as 'conservative' and many self-identified 'conservatives' are not conservative at all. Indeed, it is my opinion that 'self-labeling' of conservative-liberal in the USA is probably little more than nonsense (or simply tribal affiliation preference) based on flawed pop-cultural or conservative-propaganda definitions of the terms (and a very heated cultural war).
Indeed. I would go a step further and suggest that the "culture war" and deep ideological differences are almost completely fabricated and a phantom distraction created by the political and media class to divide and distract.

Look at the similarities between the Tea Party (especially at its inception before being COMPLETELY co opted) and Occupy Wallstreet. While I think the Tea Party rocketed to prominence in large part because of the election of someone who in on many significant fronts represented the "Other" for much of America, the fears, frustrations, and angst expressed not all that different from that of OWS. Of course, by the time you got to grannies waving guns and saying "keep yer government hands off my medicare!" it had been deliberately morphed by corporate media, punditry and astroturfing.

[Donkey]

As for the column... I'm calling tons and tons of bullshit.

For example.
These claims, which are consistent with the world view of most in the mainstream media, as well as in academe and among the literati, have gotten a lot of play.

Check the bogeymen: LIBERAL MEDIA! AAAH! check.

And the second part? This faux Latin nonsense. Using an archaic form of the traditional monster of academia? Academe? Really? What, just to make it even more scary?

And literati? What is the "literati?" Sounds a lot like "illuminati," you know, those Jews who run the world, so it MUST be bad.

Wait. What does literati mean? Oh... people who are literate. Or according to Wiktionary: literati (plural only)
Well-educated, literary people; intellectuals who are interested in literature

You know. Evil people.

Sorry, I can't even begin to take something that... I don't even know, fucking stupid? seriously.

[Michael]

My personal experience has been the higher the office the deeper things are buried. One can literally directly purchase zoning laws at local levels but favors at state and federal levels are so well hidden only the overly greedy and stupid get caught.

This one is rather easy to check on. Just check out the change in personal wealth for US Presidents vs Canadian PM's.

US Presidents and Senators always leave office as millionaires - even if they didn't arrive as one. That just doesn't happen here in Canada. Our PM's don't become millionaires in office and certainly not our Senators!

In other words, it is quite rare for a person in Canada to become a millionaire through higher political office - it is quite common (almost a rule) in the USA.

[Americano]

This one is rather easy to check on. Just check out the change in personal wealth for US Presidents vs Canadian PM's.

US Presidents and Senators always leave office as millionaires - even if they didn't arrive as one. That just doesn't happen here in Canada. Our PM's don't become millionaires in office and certainly not our Senators!

In other words, it is quite rare for a person in Canada to become a millionaire through higher political office - it is quite common (almost a rule) in the USA.

I'd never compare US political corruption to that in Canada. I've seen a US politician's wife driving a new Benz because someone wanted their kid admitted to a specific college.

[Michael]

I'd never compare US political corruption to that in Canada. I've seen a US politician's wife driving a new Benz because someone wanted their kid admitted to a specific college.

Yes. And shit like that would land a Canadian MP in jail for sure.

[nanacat]

Indeed. I would go a step further and suggest that the "culture war" and deep ideological differences are almost completely fabricated and a phantom distraction created by the political and media class to divide and distract.

Look at the similarities between the Tea Party (especially at its inception before being COMPLETELY co opted) and Occupy Wallstreet. While I think the Tea Party rocketed to prominence in large part because of the election of someone who in on many significant fronts represented the "Other" for much of America, the fears, frustrations, and angst expressed not all that different from that of OWS. Of course, by the time you got to grannies waving guns and saying "keep yer government hands off my medicare!" it had been deliberately morphed by corporate media, punditry and astroturfing.


I'm an unabashed liberal and have been since long before I heard the term or realized the meaning of it. (The real meaning, not the media "label.") I think whether you are truly of a liberal, OR a conservative nature has a lot to do with how you were raised of course, your environment and family history, but also the view you form from the very first of the human being and his relationship to society. Do you form a concept of individuals as striving but fallible beings, especially those who by the luck of their birth alone start out behind, below, different, slow? And what then is your own response to them? What is your responsibility? IS it--are others--YOUR responsibility? Or are you responsible for yourself alone? How you see the answers to those questions determine what your "preference" is.

That being said, Donkey is right. Much of the labeling shit is just that--for whatever reason there is a need in this country to always put forth an "us vs. them" controversy.


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On a personal note, just wanted to say hi and thanks for the birthday wishes, (computer generated though they may be. :D) I've missed you guys! When my family got back from Jerusalem in late August we got very busy again with school and activities. And then I got sick--nothing serious: I have chronic low blood pressure, not normally a problem. But when I get an infection, as I did in October, my electrolytes can get out of whack and I get woozy and pass out. What should have been a couple of hours of IV fluid turned into five gruesome days and nights in the hospital where I was poked and prodded and pumped full of all kinds of shit and steroids, and then to boot was treated like an incorrigible child just because I opposed a lot of the nit-picking, endless tests and specialists they wanted me to have. I finally had to sign myself out, "against doctors' advice." It was truly a horror show. I'm not someone who goes around using the term "traumatized," but after that experience I really was. It took me several days at home to feel normal again, to understand that I wasn't a recalcitrant idiot, and that I really did know my own body better than this parade of 25-year old doctors with no vowels in their names. All because--I now believe--I have medicare, and am a cash cow to this so-called teaching hospital. NOT American health care at its finest.

And then I got busy again. AND now have to share my computer with my grandson, who is addicted to Club Penguin. What can I say. Will try to stay in better touch, and try to catch up. Hope you all are well and that political bull poop aside, you're all happy. TTYS. --Cat

[Americano]

On a personal note, just wanted to say hi and thanks for the birthday wishes, (computer generated though they may be. :D) I've missed you guys! When my family got back from Jerusalem in late August we got very busy again with school and activities. And then I got sick--nothing serious: I have chronic low blood pressure, not normally a problem. But when I get an infection, as I did in October, my electrolytes can get out of whack and I get woozy and pass out. What should have been a couple of hours of IV fluid turned into five gruesome days and nights in the hospital where I was poked and prodded and pumped full of all kinds of shit and steroids, and then to boot was treated like an incorrigible child just because I opposed a lot of the nit-picking, endless tests and specialists they wanted me to have. I finally had to sign myself out, "against doctors' advice." It was truly a horror show. I'm not someone who goes around using the term "traumatized," but after that experience I really was. It took me several days at home to feel normal again, to understand that I wasn't a recalcitrant idiot, and that I really did know my own body better than this parade of 25-year old doctors with no vowels in their names. All because--I now believe--I have medicare, and am a cash cow to this so-called teaching hospital. NOT American health care at its finest.

And then I got busy again. AND now have to share my computer with my grandson, who is addicted to Club Penguin. What can I say. Will try to stay in better touch, and try to catch up. Hope you all are well and that political bull poop aside, you're all happy. TTYS. --Cat

Welcome back. Glad to hear you recovered from your illness.

[Michael]

I'm an unabashed liberal and have been since long before I heard the term or realized the meaning of it. (The real meaning, not the media "label.") I think whether you are truly of a liberal, OR a conservative nature has a lot to do with how you were raised of course, your environment and family history, but also the view you form from the very first of the human being and his relationship to society. Do you form a concept of individuals as striving but fallible beings, especially those who by the luck of their birth alone start out behind, below, different, slow? And what then is your own response to them? What is your responsibility? IS it--are others--YOUR responsibility? Or are you responsible for yourself alone? How you see the answers to those questions determine what your "preference" is.

That being said, Donkey is right. Much of the labeling shit is just that--for whatever reason there is a need in this country to always put forth an "us vs. them" controversy.


Often as not, I find conservative (R) vs liberal (D) in a US context to be all about cultural identity and has very little to do with actual political views. Many who claim to be conservative (or R) often hold very liberal views on many issues (but don't realize or understand these terms).

Btw, political affiliation is almost as strong as religion when it comes to family inheritance. For a majority of US citizens, they are R or D depending on their parents being R or D.

That being said, I do agree with you Nanacat that ones own upbringing and personal values do play a part - but I'd say on a small part at the margins.

On a personal note, just wanted to say hi and thanks for the birthday wishes, (computer generated though they may be. :D) I've missed you guys! When my family got back from Jerusalem in late August we got very busy again with school and activities. And then I got sick--nothing serious: I have chronic low blood pressure, not normally a problem. But when I get an infection, as I did in October, my electrolytes can get out of whack and I get woozy and pass out. What should have been a couple of hours of IV fluid turned into five gruesome days and nights in the hospital where I was poked and prodded and pumped full of all kinds of shit and steroids, and then to boot was treated like an incorrigible child just because I opposed a lot of the nit-picking, endless tests and specialists they wanted me to have. I finally had to sign myself out, "against doctors' advice." It was truly a horror show. I'm not someone who goes around using the term "traumatized," but after that experience I really was. It took me several days at home to feel normal again, to understand that I wasn't a recalcitrant idiot, and that I really did know my own body better than this parade of 25-year old doctors with no vowels in their names. All because--I now believe--I have medicare, and am a cash cow to this so-called teaching hospital. NOT American health care at its finest.

And then I got busy again. AND now have to share my computer with my grandson, who is addicted to Club Penguin. What can I say. Will try to stay in better touch, and try to catch up. Hope you all are well and that political bull poop aside, you're all happy. TTYS. --Cat
:wave: Indeed, we are glad you are over your health issue and back with us! We missed you! :)

[nanacat]

Michael, you're right. I grew up in Boston, a so-called "bastion of liberalism," yet as it proved in the 70"s, a parochial, religiously centered enclave of racism and small-mindedness and hate --living out the exact opp,osite of what, I believe liberals should stand for. They also elect, and re-elect one crooked politician after another.

Teddy Kennedy, for all his personal failings, was to me a true liberal, who fought tirelessly for people who had little or no voice of their own.

[Donkey]

I can't argue with the inheritance bit. I have tweaked, modified, perhaps radicalized my parents perspective, but to deny the heritage would be ludicrous.

[Michael]

I can't argue with the inheritance bit. I have tweaked, modified, perhaps radicalized my parents perspective, but to deny the heritage would be ludicrous.

Seems I inherited the "Canadian tradition" rather than following the American tradition of following my parent's politics and religion.

My family is traditionally conservative voters - my mother was one of those "tory church ladies" that the conservative party always depends on for election volunteers. My father was far to the right of Reagan (and a bigot). My American uncles all considered my father to be far too liberal.

But Canada has a very high number of voters who have voted for all three major parties (right, left and center) in different elections (estimated at 30-40% of the electorate). I'm one of them. :)

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I can't argue with the inheritance bit. I have tweaked, modified, perhaps radicalized my parents perspective, but to deny the heritage would be ludicrous.
May I ask what the heritage is?

[Donkey]

May I ask what the heritage is?

Is it not evident in my posts? :ummm: