Dictators!

[Donkey]

So this is a game that my friend and I invented basically by accident on a long-ish car ride when we were bored.

The idea is to create a list of nasty dictators/rulers/leaders throughout history.

For instance... I say Hitler.

Then the next person says Mussolini, etc.

Gentleman/woman's honour not to use the super super uber tres obvious ones unless you are in an absolute bind (and I just used two in the example, so muaha). The only rule is that they have to have to be either chronically bad (like a petty dictator) or have committed some atrocious act against humanity that you feel qualifies them. If you pick someone that people might argue about, you might want to back it up somehow. E.g. if I say FDR then I might want to say (Japanese Internment Camps). Also, no limit on how far back into the nether regions of recorded or presumed history you want to go...

Also, might be fun if we linked to their wiki page in case somebody wants to learn more about one they haven't heard a lot about.

I'll start things off with Charles Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_(Liberia)).

[Michael]

Cool game Donkey!

I offer Maximilien Robespierre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre)

Not officially a dictator, but a defacto dictator and certainly a bloody one!

[Donkey]

I'm really tired so we'll just go with Pol Pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot) for now.

[Michael]

Today's entry is Tamerlane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur) aka Timur.

The Wiki entry is remarkably sedate given Tamerlane's infamous passion for slaughter.

[SMadsen]

Oh dear, where to start? So many popes.

[Michael]

Oh dear, where to start? So many popes.
Not many Popes qualify for the title of "dictator" do you think?

Dictator implies absolute civic-political authority. Now "petty-tyrant" might be a title that a lot of Popes qualify for...

[Donkey]

Not many Popes qualify for the title of "dictator" do you think?

Dictator implies absolute civic-political authority. Now "petty-tyrant" might be a title that a lot of Popes qualify for...
I would think a few popes held pretty hefty civic authority... *shrug* Plus I think we needn't necessarily take a strict definition of "dictator" either.

Today's dictatorial contribution is Anastasio Somoza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasio_Somoza_Debayle).

[bug]

Elizabeth Bathory
Not a dictator, but horrible (and kind of awesome) enough to deserve mention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countess_Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

[SMadsen]

Not many Popes qualify for the title of "dictator" do you think?

Dictator implies absolute civic-political authority. Now "petty-tyrant" might be a title that a lot of Popes qualify for...
The papal position is dictatorial by definition.

That it in sane times doesn't hold political powers is another story :)

[Michael]

Elizabeth Bathory
Not a dictator, but horrible (and kind of awesome) enough to deserve mention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countess_Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory
Very interesting! I knew of that family, but not this particular (& gruesome) lady!

Nice to know that our list of psycho serial killers is not entirely without some of the fairer sex... ;)

The papal position is dictatorial by definition.
Yes, and so is the position of a general (by definition).

I should think that raping, pillaging, murdering, torturing (and lots of it) ought to be the key requirement for inclusion in this thread. Banning condoms, hypocrisy on homosexuality and threatening excommunication alone just doesn't cut it. ;)

[SMadsen]

I should think that raping, pillaging, murdering, torturing (and lots of it) ought to be the key requirement for inclusion in this thread. Banning condoms, hypocrisy on homosexuality and threatening excommunication alone just doesn't cut it. ;)
:)

Ok, then I'll at least have to submit Pope Innocent III, Gregory IX, Leo X and, if not originally by own agenda then by power of approval, support and appointment of Tomas de Torquemada, Innocent VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_VIII). Besides a bit of crusading and the papal bull of 1484, giving authority to hunt down and kill persons perceived to be "unmindful of their own salvation", thousands of people were burned at the stake during his reign due to his role in the Spanish Inquisition.

[Michael]

As a sidenote, I've personally always found it odd to find that Denmark is such a veritable hotbed of anti-papacy feelings (I've met quite a few Danes on the net with a particular dislike of the papacy). :ummm:

Nevertheless, I do agree that some of the named Popes certainly do deserve the honor of inclusion in such a list of infamy as we are building here. :)

For today, I'll suggest the father & son team of Francois Duvalier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Duvalier) and Jean-Claude Duvalier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Duvalier) - aka "Papa Doc" and "Baby Doc" of Haiti.

[Donkey]

As a sidenote, I've personally always found it odd to find that Denmark is such a veritable hotbed of anti-papacy feelings (I've met quite a few Danes on the net with a particular dislike of the papacy). :ummm:

Nevertheless, I do agree that some of the named Popes certainly do deserve the honor of inclusion in such a list of infamy as we are building here. :)

For today, I'll suggest the father & son team of Francois Duvalier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Duvalier) and Jean-Claude Duvalier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Duvalier) - aka "Papa Doc" and "Baby Doc" of Haiti.
Good one.

I was first introduced the to Duvaliers in Graham Greene's "The Comedians."

I will submit the dishonorable Jorge Rafael Videla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Rafael_Videla).

He was president of Argentina during the Dirty War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War), a half-decade of brutal oppression, during which General Luciano Benjamín Menéndez suggested "We are going to have to kill 50,000 people: 25,000 subversives, 20,000 sympathizers, and we will make 5,000 mistakes."

[Michael]

Here's an odd one for you all...

The one and only Oliver Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell), the only dictator who can actually be called a good dictator, wasn't corrupt and wasn't a pox on his country. He is also the one who proves that "absolute power" doesn't actually corrupt absolutely.

[Michael]

Lots of dictators in South America to choose from...

Augusto Pinochet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet) was a bit of a celebrity and quite fashionably popular on the right in the USA and UK during the 1980s.

[Donkey]

Today I will throw back to Ancient Rome and the death of the Republic. Julius Caesar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar)

[wphelan]

Here's an odd one for you all...

The one and only Oliver Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell), the only dictator who can actually be called a good dictator, wasn't corrupt and wasn't a pox on his country. He is also the one who proves that "absolute power" doesn't actually corrupt absolutely.

I have a feeling there might be a few Irish who would protest Cromwell's "good dictator" label.

[Michael]

I have a feeling there might be a few Irish who would protest Cromwell's "good dictator" label.
1. I suspect there are quite a few who would dispute the "bad dictator" label on Pinochet, Caeser or the Popes. Fact is, there are always going to be some discontents with any choices here.

2. The Irish, much like the Scots, have a long history of asserting that every evil that has ever befallen their nations can be blamed on the English. They both seem to foster a culture of resentment. One can reasonably point one's fingers at Irish and Scottish politicians in having a vested interest in fostering this, regardless of any merit to the argument. From what I understand of Scottish and Irish politics, this is still a dominant feature of contemporary politics in these places.

3. English conquests of Ireland are a dime a dozen. Cromwell's was probably the most effective.

[Michael]

Today I will throw back to Ancient Rome and the death of the Republic. Julius Caesar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar)
Do you think Julius was a 'bad' dictator?

And indeed, if Julius counts as a 'bad dictator', then EVERY Roman Emperor that follows is at least equally bad. I guess I'm looking at the 'person' as dictator separate from the 'evil' of the office of dictator. The office of dictator is always evil - but some of the people who have held this office have not been evil and thus, were comparatively decent dictators (as it were).

I think I'd put Julius into that extremely rare category of "relatively good" dictators. I don't fault Julius for being the one to end the Republic - he was the third fellow to follow the exact same career path (Marius & Sulla before him). Fact is the Republic was essentially dead, non-functional and beyond redemption at that time. Rome was at a crisis and couldn't continue under the existing political structure - massive political changes were required to deal with the existing political issues. Status quo was not an option - and Julius did represent the most 'progressive' movement of that time (against the conservative elements in opposition).

(This discussion I think might be suitable for its own thread - "relatively good dictators" - a club that I think includes possibly only Julius Caesar and Oliver Cromwell). :D

[Michael]

Today's entry shall be Francesco Sforza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_I_Sforza) of Milan, a rather colorful character mentioned in Machiavelli's The Prince. Born the bastard son of a mercenary, he rose to become the defacto dictator and eventually the Duke of Milan.

[Donkey]

Do you think Julius was a 'bad' dictator?

And indeed, if Julius counts as a 'bad dictator', then EVERY Roman Emperor that follows is at least equally bad. I guess I'm looking at the 'person' as dictator separate from the 'evil' of the office of dictator. The office of dictator is always evil - but some of the people who have held this office have not been evil and thus, were comparatively decent dictators (as it were).

I think I'd put Julius into that extremely rare category of "relatively good" dictators. I don't fault Julius for being the one to end the Republic - he was the third fellow to follow the exact same career path (Marius & Sulla before him). Fact is the Republic was essentially dead, non-functional and beyond redemption at that time. Rome was at a crisis and couldn't continue under the existing political structure - massive political changes were required to deal with the existing political issues. Status quo was not an option - and Julius did represent the most 'progressive' movement of that time (against the conservative elements in opposition).

(This discussion I think might be suitable for its own thread - "relatively good dictators" - a club that I think includes possibly only Julius Caesar and Oliver Cromwell). :D

I'm no expert on Rome, but I imagine you're right. In the cultural context Caesar was probably not too bad.


Today I submit Getulio Vargas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get%C3%BAlio_Vargas), an odd blend of leftist populism and right wing fascism, with a touch of liberation mixed with brutal suppression!

[Michael]

Today I submit Getulio Vargas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get%C3%BAlio_Vargas), an odd blend of leftist populism and right wing fascism, with a touch of liberation mixed with brutal suppression!
Interesting fellow that I'd never heard of - I'm woefully lacking in South American 20th century history. :o

[Donkey]

Interesting fellow that I'd never heard of - I'm woefully lacking in South American 20th century history. :o
I didn't learn about him until I studied in Argentina.

To my understanding the left/right mix of Vargas and Peron was specifically designed to preempt a communist revolution, which is ironic since the supporters of the current Kirchner government in Argentina (which calls itself Peronist) run around with posters of Che. :lol:

[Michael]

I didn't learn about him until I studied in Argentina.

To my understanding the left/right mix of Vargas and Peron was specifically designed to preempt a communist revolution, which is ironic since the supporters of the current Kirchner government in Argentina (which calls itself Peronist) run around with posters of Che. :lol:
Yeah, well, part of my ignorance is due to 'horror' at the content of the topic. ;)

And in keeping with the Roman theme of late, today's entry shall be Lucius Cornelius Sulla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla) - the 2nd of the infamous 'strong men' of the Roman Republic. Quite unlike Marius (1st) or Julius (3rd), Sulla was a reactionary conservative (and typical hypocritical prude - a moral crusader who slept with slave girls).

Note: When one uses the term "conservative" in the sense of Roman Republic, they really mean "arch-extreme-conservative".

[Michael]

Today's entry is Mao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong)

What more needs to be said about this monster? His bizarrely named "Great Leap Forward" is probably the single most hideous state policy of the 20th century short of Nazi genocide.

[Donkey]

Today's submission is Fulgencio Batista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista).

I think that Fidel and Friends were just in getting rid of him. It would have been nice if they had turned out better though.

[Michael]

It would have been nice if they had turned out better though.
I don't think US policy admitted that option for Cuba. Fidel did rather well with the tools he had at his disposal after the US ensured that Cuba would be forced into permanent poverty - out of US spite.

For a poor country, Cuba is probably the best managed one on the planet and Fidel deserves credit for that.

[Michael]

For today, I'll nominate one of the world's most crazy and colorful (and psychotic) dictators... Idi Amin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin)

[Donkey]

I don't think US policy admitted that option for Cuba. Fidel did rather well with the tools he had at his disposal after the US ensured that Cuba would be forced into permanent poverty - out of US spite.

For a poor country, Cuba is probably the best managed one on the planet and Fidel deserves credit for that.
I agree to a great extent.

No embargo necessitated the abuse of homosexuals, for instance, and the essential negation of numerous rights.

[Michael]

I agree to a great extent.

No embargo necessitated the abuse of homosexuals, for instance, and the essential negation of numerous rights.
It is a very "low bar" when judging the quality of government in poor countries. It tends to range from 'brutal' to 'horrific' and at best is, 'corrupt and incompetent'.

Amongst that group of countries, Fidel's regime has been remarkably impressive.

[Michael]

How about Imelda's husband? Ferdinand Marcos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos)

[Margot]

Does Olympias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias) count? I don't think she was a dictator per se, but she was a pretty good puppet master.

[Michael]

Does Olympias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias) count? I don't think she was a dictator per se, but she was a pretty good puppet master.
Not bad. :D

But if you are interested in this 'type' of dictatorial puppet masters, I would recommend you look up Livia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livia) - wife of Octavian/Augustus. She was far more successful and notoriously bloody-minded about it than the 'Epirote Witch'. ;)

[Donkey]

Probably relatively gentle compared to some of the previous mentioned characters, I give you Haile Selassie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Selassie_I_of_Ethiopia

[Evangeline]

Here's a recent scoundrel of a dictator - Slobodan Milosevic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milosevic)

[Dominick]

Do part time dictators count ?
Technically speaking he wasn't a dictator in the country where he was king but in the country he owned (yes, literally) he ranks with the worst in history.
I give you Léopold Louis Philippe Marie Victor of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9opold_II_of_Belgium) aka Leopold II of Belgium.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0d/Amputated_Congolese_youth.jpg/180px-Amputated_Congolese_youth.jpg
This picture (and many others) is suspiciously absent from Belgian history books.

[Margot]

Do part time dictators count ?
Technically speaking he wasn't a dictator in the country where he was king but in the country he owned (yes, literally) he ranks with the worst in history.
I give you Léopold Louis Philippe Marie Victor of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9opold_II_of_Belgium) aka Leopold II of Belgium.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0d/Amputated_Congolese_youth.jpg/180px-Amputated_Congolese_youth.jpg
This picture (and many others) is suspiciously absent from Belgian history books.

Good one. Have you ever read King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild? That's where I learned about him.

Actually knowing the history of the Belgian Congo and the first modern genocide has made it really hard for me to study Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Especially the second time.

[Dominick]

Good one. Have you ever read King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild? That's where I learned about him.
No, but being Belgian there's heaps of info available. It's all in funny languages such as Dutch or French though ;)

[Evangeline]

How about the Shah of Iran (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/mohammad_rezashah/mohammad_rezashah.php). He named himself King of Kings and expanded his power, violating the constitution. He led a repressive regime and his downfall led to the Islamic Republic that Iran has today.

[Michael]

How about little known Than Shwe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Than_Shwe) - dictator of Burma (aka Myanmar).

He's not a very impressive fellow in his own right - merely the 'headman' of the military junta that rules with dictatorial authority.

[The Drunk Guy]

How about the Shah of Iran (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/mohammad_rezashah/mohammad_rezashah.php). He named himself King of Kings and expanded his power, violating the constitution. He led a repressive regime and his downfall led to the Islamic Republic that Iran has today.
You end this as though the Islamic Republic is bad. I quite respect Iran. They are a power in Asia and they have done it without isolating the nation's wealth into a small upper class.

[Evangeline]

You end this as though the Islamic Republic is bad. I quite respect Iran. They are a power in Asia and they have done it without isolating the nation's wealth into a small upper class.

They've banned music. People have to buy their Metallica CDs through the black market.

They whip and beat homosexuals. They claim Iran has no homosexuals.

That's respectable?

[The Drunk Guy]

They've banned music. People have to buy their Metallica CDs through the black market.

They whip and beat homosexuals. They claim Iran has no homosexuals.

That's respectable?
I think Metallica should be moved to the black market. ;)

How different is it from what America would be like if the right took total control for 20+ years?

And I said I respect the nation; I didn't say I want to fucking move there.

[Donkey]

Depends on which "right" I suppose.

[Evangeline]

Depends on which "right" I suppose.

The wrong right, actually. teeheee

[Zarquon]

I give you Zia-ul-Haq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia-ul-Haq).
Quasi-fascist theocrat lunatic, imposed martial law, Islamicized Pakistan, crushed its democracy, and aided the Mujaheddin, along with the CIA, in Afghanistan.

[Michael]

I give you Zia-ul-Haq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia-ul-Haq).
Quasi-fascist theocrat lunatic, imposed martial law, Islamicized Pakistan, crushed its democracy, and aided the Mujaheddin, along with the CIA, in Afghanistan.

Yes, a good reminder of the idiocy of of US Foreign Policy under the Cold War. Zia owed his position to US support.

[Non Sequitur]

Franco is a good option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco). Dictator of spain from 39-73. Generally not a good person.

[Michael]

Franco is a good option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco). Dictator of spain from 39-73. Generally not a good person.

As far as dictators go, not a bad dictator either. :shrug:

He's the only modern dictator that isn't universally hated.

[Michael]

Have we had Field Marshal Doctor Idi Amin, VC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin) yet?

He's such a colorful character! :lol:

[Zarquon]

Have we had Field Marshal Doctor Idi Amin, VC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin) yet?

He's such a colorful character! :lol:
yes, we have.

[Michael]

yes, we have.
:rofl:

It was probably me who posted him before! :D

Anywho... how about the Little Guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Bonaparte) - it seems that I've been remiss in putting him up here!

[Non Sequitur]

have we done Robert Mugabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mugabe) yet? He certainly has managed to screw up his country's economy.

[Michael]

have we done Robert Mugabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mugabe) yet? He certainly has managed to screw up his country's economy.

Probably the worst 'living' example in the ugly dictator motif. :erm: