Can one be half-Muslim?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

The below quote is from this thead
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2997

His mother was Tatar and devoted Muslim; his father was ethnic Russian and (according to him) a faithful Orthodox Christian. So, he is half-Muslim. Does that satisfy you?

Can one be half-Muslim?
I say no, certainly not. You are either Muslim or you aren't Muslim, in my book?

But what do other people think?

[Donkey]

Imho. The child is half Tatar and half (ethnic) Russian. Whether he is Muslim or Orthodox Christian, or neither, depends entirely on what the child believes.

Take this guy, a high profile American football player of Samoan descent:

http://api.ning.com/files/iWRrN4r1pN3CmIQvBYnGTms9sycTq1PqqzrVQKQKhHdWb-jNdQjhDVxi2PNb4pxnDHY7i8Ww58ZGZ1JVpq13VLp-lKWj699Y/polamalu2.jpg

He is an Orthodox Christian. It has nothing to do with his race.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Imho. The child is half Tatar and half (ethnic) Russian. Whether he is Muslim or Orthodox Christian, or neither, depends entirely on what the child believes.

Take this guy, a high profile American football player of Samoan descent:

http://api.ning.com/files/iWRrN4r1pN3CmIQvBYnGTms9sycTq1PqqzrVQKQKhHdWb-jNdQjhDVxi2PNb4pxnDHY7i8Ww58ZGZ1JVpq13VLp-lKWj699Y/polamalu2.jpg

He is an Orthodox Christian. It has nothing to do with his race.
I agree entirely.
I picked MeMyselfandI up on this, but he repeated steadfastly that his friend is half-Muslim, because of his parentage.

To most people in the EU countries, the idea that you can be half in a religion is bizarre. Ethnicity, yes, religion, no.

To me this shows that part of the OLD-Russian way of thinking is that one remains what one's family is, and what oneself chooses is less important that tradition.

[pramjockey]

Hmmm.

One can be half-Jewish, and one can convert to Judaism.

If one of a child's parent's converted to Judaism, is the child half-Jewish? What if the conversion happened after conception?

[Donkey]

Hmmm.

One can be half-Jewish, and one can convert to Judaism.

If one of a child's parent's converted to Judaism, is the child half-Jewish? What if the conversion happened after conception?

Judaism is an odd circumstance in which religion and (supposed) ethnicity supposedly collide. It is unsustainable at best.

I know plenty of Jews who are atheists. Saying that someone is Muslim because they are Tartar is like saying that I'm Catholic because I'm Hispanic.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Hmmm.

One can be half-Jewish, and one can convert to Judaism.

If one of a child's parent's converted to Judaism, is the child half-Jewish? What if the conversion happened after conception?
That's easily explained - some Jews say that Judaism is both a race/ethnicity and a religion. So if someone who is racially/ethnically Jewish decides to be an atheist, or a Christian, they are still racially Jewish.

I'm dubious about this emphasis on race/ethnicity, but as I said, it was some other people who thought this one up, not me.

[Non Sequitur]

The below quote is from this thead
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2997


Can one be half-Muslim?
I say no, certainly not. You are either Muslim or you aren't Muslim, in my book?

But what do other people think?

Probably not with our understanding of race, ethnicity, and religion today.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Well, how would you call him? He knows enough about both religions to discuss the Koran with not just Karina herself but her Mullah (Islamic scholar) father; and argue with me about the similarities and differences between Old and Modern Orthodoxy.

At the same time, he also does not completely adopt either faith, staying in between. So, he is half, 50%. :shrug:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, how would you call him? He knows enough about both religions to discuss the Koran with not just Karina herself but her Mullah (Islamic scholar) father; and argue with me about the similarities and differences between Old and Modern Orthodoxy.

At the same time, he also does not completely adopt either faith, staying in between. So, he is half, 50%. :shrug:
It is irrelevant that he knows much about a religion if he doesn't believe in its God, in my humble opinion.

As for him being somewhere between Christianity and Islam, well, possibly.

But parentage has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

[The Drunk Guy]

Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. I would argue that this label can also be applied to communities within other nations that separates that community from the host nation. The Muslim community in some countries are composed of Middle Eastern immigrants from various nations, so they identify themselves as 'ethnic muslims' rather than 'Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, and Lebonese' or whatever.

Let's say, for instance, that his mother's parents were born in Russia, one from Iranian parents, the other from Lebanese. This makes his mother Muslim, but not Iranian nor Lebanese. It is simpler for her to indentify as, both ethnicly and religiously, 'Muslim'.

[Donkey]

Well, how would you call him? He knows enough about both religions to discuss the Koran with not just Karina herself but her Mullah (Islamic scholar) father; and argue with me about the similarities and differences between Old and Modern Orthodoxy.

At the same time, he also does not completely adopt either faith, staying in between. So, he is half, 50%. :shrug:

I can argue quite a lot about religion. One of my good friends is a religious scholar and an atheist and can argue quite a lot more.

Knowledge does not necessarily mean faith. He could, I suppose, believe some fusion of the two religions, but that would be awkward. And not by birth.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. I would argue that this label can also be applied to communities within other nations that separates that community from the host nation. The Muslim community in some countries are composed of Middle Eastern immigrants from various nations, so they identify themselves as 'ethnic muslims' rather than 'Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, and Lebonese' or whatever.

Let's say, for instance, that his mother's parents were born in Russia, one from Iranian parents, the other from Lebanese. This makes his mother Muslim, but not Iranian nor Lebanese. It is simpler for her to indentify as, both ethnicly and religiously, 'Muslim'.
I have never heard of anyone defining themselves as ethnically Muslim. Everyone I have heard claim to be a Muslim believes in God (or Allah if you prefer) and follows Mohammed.

[The Drunk Guy]

I have never heard of anyone defining themselves as ethnically Muslim. Everyone I have heard claim to be a Muslim believes in God (or Allah if you prefer) and follows Mohammed.

Ethnicity is about heritage, not race. I would consider my ethnicity as Christian despite my atheism. Religion runs deep in my family and home community and that has greatly shaped my personal values despite my lack of faith.

[Donkey]

Ethnicity is about heritage, not race. I would consider my ethnicity as Christian despite my atheism. Religion runs deep in my family and home community and that has greatly shaped my personal values despite my lack of faith.

That is a fair point, but you would say you are Christian now because of your heritage?

I no longer consider myself Catholic, but I still consider myself Hispanic.

The line between ethnicity and race gets blurry.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Ethnicity is about heritage, not race. I would consider my ethnicity as Christian despite my atheism. Religion runs deep in my family and home community and that has greatly shaped my personal values despite my lack of faith.

I fully respect that - I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Muslim, and before you now, I'd never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Christian. But now, I have heard someone define themselves as ethnically Christian, you. And you have that right, and I am happy to refer to you as an ethnic Christian.

[Donkey]

I fully respect that - I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Muslim, and before you now, I'd never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Christian. But now, I have heard someone define themselves as ethnically Christian, you. And you have that right, and I am happy to refer to you as an ethnic Christian.

I think you're oversimplifying what he said.

[The Drunk Guy]

That is a fair point, but you would say you are Christian now because of your heritage?

I no longer consider myself Catholic, but I still consider myself Hispanic.

The line between ethnicity and race gets blurry.

If I were in, say, Afghanistan I probably would. Luckily, that isn't necessary here. I'm a white guy in America....I got it made. :D

I see ethinicity as being about culture and race is about genetics. Pretty simple, IMO.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I think you're oversimplifying what he said.
I'm not even interpreting what he said, so I don't see how I can be oversimplifying it.

[Donkey]

If I were in, say, Afghanistan I probably would. Luckily, that isn't necessary here. I'm a white guy in America....I got it made. :D

I see ethinicity as being about culture and race is about genetics. Pretty simple, IMO.

Nope. Race plays into ethnicity as well.

Ethnicity is not a hard and fast, or even reasonable, term.

[The Drunk Guy]

Nope. Race plays into ethnicity as well.

Ethnicity is not a hard and fast, or even reasonable, term.

Race does impact ethnicity, but it does not always rule it. Ever seen "The Jerk"?

All labels are subjective. Its like reading a book sleeve....you still don't know the book until you've read it. ;)

[MeMyselfAndI]

Well, I understand that in Bosnia and elsewhere in former Yugoslavia, there are many people who identify themselves as ethnic Muslims.

[Donkey]

Race does impact ethnicity, but it does not always rule it. Ever seen "The Jerk"?

All labels are subjective. Its like reading a book sleeve....you still don't know the book until you've read it. ;)It is a factor, but it's not a necessary or definitive factor. :)

Well, I understand that in Bosnia and elsewhere in former Yugoslavia, there are many people who identify themselves as ethnic Muslims.

Interesting point.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, I understand that in Bosnia and elsewhere in former Yugoslavia, there are many people who identify themselves as ethnic Muslims.
That's fine, although I don't really see the point - it's a bit like non-religious people who claim to be Jewish. The only time they mark themselves out for their 'Jewish ethnicity' is at Christmas, when they are busy NOT celebrating Christmas.

I wonder if I'd still be an ethnic agnostic if I suddenly became a Christian, given that I come from one of the most agnostic parts of the world on the planet.

[The Drunk Guy]

I fully respect that - I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Muslim, and before you now, I'd never heard anyone define themselves as ethnically Christian. But now, I have heard someone define themselves as ethnically Christian, you. And you have that right, and I am happy to refer to you as an ethnic Christian.

As I said to Donkey, there's really no need for me to identify as that. America claims something like 78% Christian....my background is a given. But, if my community was somehow supplanted in a foreign nation, I would seek to indentify my background.

To go another way....lets say a person was born into a Muslim community and remained there through life without ever believing in Islam. He is obviously not a Muslim, but, to an outsider, he is of Muslim culture.

[Donkey]

That's fine, although I don't really see the point - it's a bit like non-religious people who claim to be Jewish. The only time they mark themselves out for their 'Jewish ethnicity' is at Christmas, when they are busy NOT celebrating Christmas.

I wonder if I'd still be an ethnic agnostic if I suddenly became a Christian, given that I come from one of the most agnostic parts of the world on the planet.

False.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

As I said to Donkey, there's really no need for me to identify as that. America claims something like 78% Christian....my background is a given. But, if my community was somehow supplanted in a foreign nation, I would seek to indentify my background.

To go another way....lets say a person was born into a Muslim community and remained there through life without ever believing in Islam. He is obviously not a Muslim, but, to an outsider, he is of Muslim culture.
As an outsider myself, I would not identify him as a Muslim until I knew what he believed about celestial powers. If he asked me to identify him as a Muslim, then I happily oblige, of course.

[MeMyselfAndI]

That's fine, although I don't really see the point - it's a bit like non-religious people who claim to be Jewish. The only time they mark themselves out for their 'Jewish ethnicity' is at Christmas, when they are busy NOT celebrating Christmas.

I wonder if I'd still be an ethnic agnostic if I suddenly became a Christian, given that I come from one of the most agnostic parts of the world on the planet.

Well, look at me, at my people. The Old Orthodox Staoobryadcy, or Starovery, or Pomory (in the North, my kind), or Dukhobory, or Molokany (in Armenia), as our many related branches are known, we all are considered a separate (though closely related) sub-ethnos from the Russians and other Slavic peoples, upon the fact of not much more than our faith, that our kind of Orthodoxy is slightly different from the mainstream kind. We define ourselves by our faith. In census forms, in the natsionalnost (ethnicity) line, we write Starover.

Faith and ethnicity are the same to my people, Nick.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, look at me, at my people. The Old Orthodox Staoobryadcy, or Starovery, or Pomory (in the North, my kind), or Dukhobory, or Molokany (in Armenia), as our many related branches are known, we all are considered a separate (though closely related) sub-ethnos from the Russians and other Slavic peoples, upon the fact of not much more than our faith, that our kind of Orthodoxy is slightly different from the mainstream kind. We define ourselves by our faith. In census forms, in the natsionalnost (ethnicity) line, we write Starover.

Faith and ethnicity are the same to my people, Nick.
Okay, I can accept that. But what happens if one of you stops believing in God? Do you lose your ethnicity, or are you still an ethnic Old Orthodox Staoobryadcy?

[MeMyselfAndI]

Okay, I can accept that. But what happens if one of you stops believing in God? Do you lose your ethnicity, or are you still an ethnic Christian?

Well, I am living proof. Moved to the city, shaved the beard off, married outside the Faith, stopped following the ways, so to speak. No, I cannot call myself a Old Orthodox anymore. Even if my family still accepts me, every time I visit there, I know I am not one of them anymore.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, I am living proof. Moved to the city, shaved the beard off, married outside the Faith, stopped following the ways, so to speak. No, I cannot call myself a Old Orthodox anymore. Even if my family still accepts me, every time I visit there, I know I am not one of them anymore.
Okay, just asking ;)

[Donkey]

Well, I am living proof. Moved to the city, shaved the beard off, married outside the Faith, stopped following the ways, so to speak. No, I cannot call myself a Old Orthodox anymore. Even if my family still accepts me, every time I visit there, I know I am not one of them anymore.

Beards 4 ev3r.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Beards 4 ev3r.

Indeed
http://gereev.ucoz.ru/staroveri.jpghttp://i.rdrom.ru/pubs/4483/11840/98992.jpghttp://img-2007-06.photosight.ru/10/2138056.jpghttp://www.altai-starover.ru/gallery/photo0017.jpghttp://www.bahta-fish.ru/photos/starover2.jpghttp://asfera.info/img/spaw/big/01_1197.jpg
Old Orthodox beards are famous. In regular Orthodoxy, only priests must have beards. In Old Orthodoxy - every married man. I tried that too. Than, I realized that


It is difficult to eat with a beard like that
It is also hard and expensive to take care of it

So, I decided, I am in Moscow now, may as well "modernize". :shrug:

The downside is, when we visit my family, I am the only man in the room with a shaved face... Makes you feel like you do not belong there. :lol:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I hope this thread isn't going to turn into a beard thread. This thread is actually the direct result of MeMyselfandI not wanting his thread about Masonry to go off on a tangent. ;)

[MeMyselfAndI]

I hope this thread isn't going to turn into a beard thread. This thread is actually the direct result of MeMyselfandI not wanting his thread about Masonry to go off on a tangent. ;)

Would you like me now to make a thread about beards? :D

See, we are contributing to each other here. I gave you the idea for this thread; now maybe you gave me one :lol: It is becoming a pattern.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Would you like me now to make a thread about beards? :D

See, we are contributing to each other here. I gave you the idea for this thread; now maybe you gave me one :lol: It is becoming a pattern.
No, problem, mate :) You can write about beards on this thread, although if you prefer, please make a thread about beards ;)

[Michael]

Can one be half-Muslim?
I say no, certainly not. You are either Muslim or you aren't Muslim, in my book?

But what do other people think?

I don't see why not. :shrug:

Religion (or religious labels) and ethnicity (or ethnic labels) are ultimately defined by culture - and culture is always fluid in nature and fuzzy in definition - and understood subjectively. So how the heck can anyone expect such labels to be applied judiciously and 'properly' when so few people can ever agree on the definitions of these labels in the first place? And I hardly need to add that arguing about someone else's identity is definitely subjective and relative, not to mention highly speculative.

Speaking of which, I've definitely heard many people insist that I was 'born a Christian' regardless of my views on that issue, so if that's true, then I must be a 'half-Christian' myself. I don't have any reason to object to that - it actually seems quite correct - I am born of a Christian family, with lots of Christian ancestors on both sides of the family, raised in a majority-dominant Christian society and living completely surrounded by Christian culture force-fed down my throat since I was a little child. So I certainly am more than a bit 'Christian' even if I consider the whole thing to be complete hogwash.

As a final point, I might add that these questions of identity always strike me as impossible to answer anyway - regardless of the issue. What difference does it make whether this fellow is half-Muslim, full-Muslim, quarter-Muslim, ex-Muslim or married a Muslim? :ummm:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I've made it clear from the start that my definition is my own humble opinion, and nowhere have I suggested that my definition is any more valid than anyone else's.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I don't see why not. :shrug:
(...)
So how the heck can anyone expect such labels to be applied judiciously and 'properly' when so few people can ever agree on the definitions of these labels in the first place? And I hardly need to add that arguing about someone else's identity is definitely subjective and relative, not to mention highly speculative.

Speaking of which, I've definitely heard many people insist that I was 'born a Christian' regardless of my views on that issue, so if that's true, then I must be a 'half-Christian' myself. I don't have any reason to object to that - it actually seems quite correct - I am born of a Christian family, with lots of Christian ancestors on both sides of the family, raised in a majority-dominant Christian society and living completely surrounded by Christian culture force-fed down my throat since I was a little child. So I certainly am more than a bit 'Christian' even if I consider the whole thing to be complete hogwash.

As a final point, I might add that these questions of identity always strike me as impossible to answer anyway - :ummm:
Well, I have my definition, other people have theirs, and you have yours as we see below. Although in your above quote you seem perfecly approving of the view that parentage and upbringing give you Christian status, while in the quote below you seem to demand personal belief. Do I detect argumentativeness?;)

I respectfully submit that if you don't accept the divinity of Jesus or the miracle of the ressurection, you ain't no Christian. But apparently there are millions of such people in Canada claiming to be Christians. So when you hear someone state that surveys prove that 85% of Canadians are Christians, that's a pure bullshit statistic. I honestly don't know of more than a tiny number of actual Christians here in Toronto (and only through my work environment).

[Michael]

Well, I have my definition, other people have theirs, and you have yours as we see below. Although in your above quote you seem perfecly approving of the view that parentage and upbringing give you Christian status, while in the quote below you seem to demand personal belief. Do I detect argumentativeness?;)

No. But apparently you are trying to create some by mix-mashing quotes out of context from different thread discussions.

[rocky.dwf]

1. To my knowledge to be a Jew one has to be born of a Jewish mother. A Jewish father cannot produce a Jewish child from a non-Jewish woman. And a Jewish woman giving birth to a child off a non-Jew is a Jewish child. There is no conversions into Judaism - much like the case in Hinduism. In both religions one not only has to be born into the religion but also into the clan/tribe/cast/class.

2. Islam is really not a religion as the word religion is defined in the dictionary. There is no clergy. There are no images and statues to worship. Magical verses or rituals are absent. Islam is a continuous revolution to reform human society.

3. If you are a Muslim then you are a Muslim. Full stop. There is nothing like an extremist Muslim or a moderate Muslim or, as the thread says, a half Muslim. One who submits himself to the fundamentals of Islam as enshrined in The Holy Quo'ran is a Muslim.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

No. But apparently you are trying to create some by mix-mashing quotes out of context from different thread discussions.
I'm glad to hear that there isn't.
And no, I'm not trying to create any - I just see a huge contradiction between the things you have said in the last couple of days.

[Michael]

I'm glad to hear that there isn't.
And no, I'm not trying to create any - I just see a huge contradiction between the things you have said in the last couple of days.

If you see any contradiction of ideas in my posts, you are welcome to inquire. I'm pretty sure there is no contradiction at all, once you consider the contexts.

But I'm not likely to seriously reply to out of context mix-mashing of my posts framed in a way to accuse me of contradiction.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I wouldn't say that self-contradiciton is so serious that ascribing it to someone can be called accusation, but that's just my view.
I have nothing to inquire.
Have a nice day ;)

[Michael]

I wouldn't say that self-contradiciton is so serious that ascribing it to someone can be called accusation, but that's just my view.
I have nothing to inquire.
Have a nice day ;)

I pride myself on non-contradiction in political thought. I devote quite a bit of thought to the issue of maintaining internal consistency with all my stated views. Ergo, any assertion that my views are contradictory is accusatory by definition.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, to me saying that one is more than a bit Christian due to a lot of non-faith-related issues, and then saying that one has to believe in the divinity of Christ to be a Christian (and that therefore some people's claim to be Christian is bullshit) is self-contradictory, and will remain self-contradictory.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Well, I can now, I believe, make a case that religion can be passed down between generations, almost genetically (not to say it always does, only that it is possible). One young man, Danila, who works in my firm, he is a hardline, Church-going Orthodox Christian. His father is a priest, so is his older brother, Matvei; and both his sisters are fundamentalists also, headscarves and all. Matvei and the older sister, Olga, are actually sort of celebrities in religious circles here, they founded and still actively volunteer and participate in a church-based program that "helps" homosexual youth in schools by, supposedly, "curing" their "disease". They hold group meetings where the suspected gay young people are humiliated, insulted, shamed, told that, in the eyes of God, they are less than human (because He created two humans of opposite sexes, Adam and Eva, that was His plan for humanity, and the gays have no place in that). The gays are told they need to change and abandon their sinful lifestyle if want to be accepted as equals in society. According to some rumors, some of these groups force the gay children to watch heterosexual pornography for many hours; and in some even female lesbian girls and male gay boys are forced to do sex with one another... And Danila's family is prominent in all this. And he claims that his faith, and that of his siblings, and of their own children, comes from his father. So, if one talks of upbringing, one can call Danila a full Christian. The faith was passed to him from his father almost like, for example, the color of his eyes.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, I can now, I believe, make a case that religion can be passed down between generations, almost genetically (not to say it always does, only that it is possible). One young man, Danila, who works in my firm, he is a hardline, Church-going Orthodox Christian. His father is a priest, so is his older brother, Matvei; and both his sisters are fundamentalists also, headscarves and all. Matvei and the older sister, Olga, are actually sort of celebrities in religious circles here, they founded and still actively volunteer and participate in a church-based program that "helps" homosexual youth in schools by, supposedly, "curing" their "disease". They hold group meetings where the suspected gay young people are humiliated, insulted, shamed, told that, in the eyes of God, they are less than human (because He created two humans of opposite sexes, Adam and Eva, that was His plan for humanity, and the gays have no place in that). The gays are told they need to change and abandon their sinful lifestyle if want to be accepted as equals in society. According to some rumors, some of these groups force the gay children to watch heterosexual pornography for many hours; and in some even female lesbian girls and male gay boys are forced to do sex with one another... And Danila's family is prominent in all this. And he claims that his faith, and that of his siblings, and of their own children, comes from his father. So, if one talks of upbringing, one can call Danila a full Christian. The faith was passed to him from his father almost like, for example, the color of his eyes.
No, MeMyselfandI, we all know that usually people have the same religion as their parents. The question here is whether you can be a Christian because of having Christian parents, even if you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

[Michael]

I always tend to think about religion on Sunday mornings... :ummm:

Anyway, I've been thinking about the idea of religious derived labels being used in a way that is synonymous with ethnic or cultural labels. I think Judaism provides the classic example here as it is commonly or generally held that Judaism is held to be an ethnicity, a culture and a religion (whichever is most convenient in any given situation). From an intellectual, historical or social science perspective, I think that's rather absurd, but who am I to judge the way human society expresses itself?

So I'm thinking, if that's supposedly true of Judaism, it is likely to be equally true of Christianity and Islam as well - for the simple reason these three religions are all essentially the same thing in three different flavors. That is to say, the labels of Jew, Christian and Muslim really are actually understood as cultural labels more often than they are understood as religious labels.

Let me illustrate this point with a quick and simple thought experiment, using myself as the subject. I was born to a middle class (Christian) family, raised in an upscale middle class (Christian) neighborhood in a majority Christian country. There are literally thousands of Christian churches in Toronto - we even have a couple of archbishops to boot! As young schoolboy, I remember being required to recite the Lord's Prayer in public elementary school every morning immediately after singing the National Anthem. My parents also dutifully took me to church every Sunday morning for many years. I was baptised and blessed like every other white middle class kid I grew up with. Except, I'm totally an atheist and always have been. None of this Christian stuff makes any sense to me strikes me as literally absurd.

Now let's take some hypothetical other - let's choose a nice Iranian boy, born of a middle class (Muslim) family, raised in an upscale middle class neighborhood in Tehran, in a majority Muslim country (Iran). Like, me, this boy grows up to be an atheist.

Now when we look at these two situations, it appears to me that this atheist Iranian and myself might have a few sigificant things in common (comfortable family upbringing and atheist viewpoints), but overall, we probably do not share much else in common - we would be foreigners to each other because of our cultural backgrounds would be entirely different (not to mention our linguistic-cultures).

I respectfully submit that I have far more 'culturally' in common with the local Christian community I grew up with rather than any others who may happen share my rejection of religion. Similarly, my fellow atheist friend in Tehran, probably has a very strong cultural connection with his local Muslim culture, even if he ignores the whole Allah thing.

Bottom line is that religious labels mean more as cultural labels than they do as religious labels. The fact that I'm an atheist is irrelevant from a cultural perspective - in that respect I'm born and raised in a Christian culture and that's no trival fact - it defines my culture.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael,
so Christianity can be an ethnicity. Fine, I have never had any problem with that. It's not my personal definition of Christianity, and I am dubious about the way Jewishness is considered a religion and an ethnicity. Only thing is, it was you who said this...

I respectfully submit that if you don't accept the divinity of Jesus or the miracle of the ressurection, you ain't no Christian. But apparently there are millions of such people in Canada claiming to be Christians. So when you hear someone state that surveys prove that 85% of Canadians are Christians, that's a pure bullshit statistic. rvey.

[The Drunk Guy]

Michael,
so Christianity can be an ethnicity, but lack of acceptance of the divinity of Jesus means it's bullshit that 85% of Canadians are Christians? Don't you think this is a contradiction?
Not when there is a separation of culture and religion that you're completely ignoring. As Michael and I have both said repeatedly, an ethnic label is a generic label regarding background, not a statement of faith.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Not when there is a separation of culture and religion that you're completely ignoring. As Michael and I have both said repeatedly, an ethnic label is a generic label regarding background, not a statement of faith.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not taking it for granted when it comes to Islam or Christianity, the way you are doing, and the way Michael has TODAY concluded.

Anyway, how did Michael know that those 85% of Canadians didn't mean that they were ETHNICALLY Christian?
So when you hear someone state that surveys prove that 85% of Canadians are Christians, that's a pure bullshit statistic
.

[The Drunk Guy]

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not taking it for granted when it comes to Islam or Christianity, the way you are doing, and the way Michael has TODAY concluded.

Anyway, how did Michael know that those 85% of Canadians didn't mean that they were ETHNICALLY Christian?

The poll was regarding religion, not ethnicity.

[Michael]

The poll was regarding religion, not ethnicity.

Precisely. That poll is the centerpiece of what the magazine calls their "Annual Focus on Religion" issue - and they directly assume that anyone who self-identifies as "Christian" believes in God (because that's the number they print on the cover of the magazine saying that - i.e. "85% of Canadians believe in God" - which is directly extrapolated from the "are you Christian?" question).

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Precisely. That poll is the centerpiece of what the magazine calls their "Annual Focus on Religion" issue - and they directly assume that anyone who self-identifies as "Christian" believes in God (because that's the number they print on the cover of the magazine saying that - i.e. "85% of Canadians believe in God" - which is directly extrapolated from the "are you Christian?" question).
Well, you said it was bullshit that 85% of Canadians were Christians. So naturally I jumped to the conclusion that you thought that it was bullshit that 85% of Canadians were Christian. ;)

[Michael]

Well, you said it was bullshit that 85% of Canadians were Christians. So naturally I jumped to the conclusion that you thought that it was bullshit that 85% of Canadians were Christian. ;)

85% of Canadians are apparently culturally Christian.

If you read the study data, actual religious Christians are about 1/3 of the country.

[nanacat]

1. To my knowledge to be a Jew one has to be born of a Jewish mother. A Jewish father cannot produce a Jewish child from a non-Jewish woman. And a Jewish woman giving birth to a child off a non-Jew is a Jewish child. There is no conversions into Judaism - much like the case in Hinduism. In both religions one not only has to be born into the religion but also into the clan/tribe/cast/class.

2. Islam is really not a religion as the word religion is defined in the dictionary. There is no clergy. There are no images and statues to worship. Magical verses or rituals are absent. Islam is a continuous revolution to reform human society.

3. If you are a Muslim then you are a Muslim. Full stop. There is nothing like an extremist Muslim or a moderate Muslim or, as the thread says, a half Muslim. One who submits himself to the fundamentals of Islam as enshrined in The Holy Quo'ran is a Muslim.

I'm not an Islamic scholar, so *I* may be wrong about some of these things, but I have a working knowledge of Islam, and I think you make several errors in your comments:

1. It's true that in Judaism it is the mother who determines the religion of the child. This stems from ancient insistence that the people remain pure--you can always tell who the mother is, but the dad? Eh..... But there certainly is conversion to Judaism. I know that for sure. (In my own family, my neice converted to Judaism from Catholicism. She went to Hebrew school and went before the Rabbis and became a Jew. In fact, her oldest son was Bar Mitzvah'd just last month. And my ex-husband, a Muslim, converted to Judaism in a similar way to marry his second wife.



2. There are indeed "clergy" in Islam. They are called clerics, or mullahs, and of course there is nothing like a "Pope" as there is in Catholicism, but there are certainly spiritual leaders, both historical and contemporary, world-wide and local.

There might not be any "magical" verses, but there is a ton of ritual involved in almost every aspect of Islam, from prayer to running a home, to everyday language.

The Muslims do not venerate images or icons, the way the way Catholics and other Christians do, but the idea behind that (as far as I know, and I may not have this one down perfectly, I admit,) is that the idea of God / Allah is so vast and all-encompassing that you cannot name it, cannot portray it. But you cannot enter a Muslim home where there is not an elegantly wrought photograph of either the Kaaba in Mecca, or the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, often in an expensive gilt frame. There are also verses of the Quran similarly displayed in most people's living rooms, exquisite pieces of calligraphy embossed in gold on black backgrounds, and again, encased in elaborate frames.

3. No, it isn't as simple as once a Muslim always a Muslim, or true that there are no Muslim fundamentalists. My ex-husband, after divorcing the Jewish wife, married a young Muslim woman and has become the fundamentalist Muslim to beat all fundamentalist Muslims. My own son, although baptized into the Catholic Church, considers himself a Muslim, but his brother, the child of the Jewish wife, was raised a Jew and Bar Mitzvah'd. But my ex-husband, since his own re-entrance into Islam, has been haranguing, cajoling, threatening, torturing this boy, anything he can to turn him away from Judaism. The poor kid--hardly a kid, actually, 27-28--has become a troubled part of a tug-of-war of the religions of his parents. They get along fairly well in other terms, but BOTH now assert the supremacy of THEIR religion when it comes to their child. It's very distressing to see the effects on this lovely young man.

[Michael]

... And my ex-husband, a Muslim, converted to Judaism in a similar way to marry his second wife.
...
My ex-husband, after divorcing the Jewish wife, married a young Muslim woman...

So your ex-husband, was a Muslim, converted to Judaism to marry wife #2, then gets divorced and reverts back to Islam to marry wife #3 - and then becomes a religious fanatic? :erm:

Wow. Some people have complicated lives. :shrug:

P.S. I just realized that your ex-husband has been married to a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim! Is a Buddhist next? :lol: (sorry, I couldn't resist - my apologies in advance for making fun of such a topic!)

[nanacat]

So your ex-husband, was a Muslim, converted to Judaism to marry wife #2, then gets divorced and reverts back to Islam to marry wife #3 - and then becomes a religious fanatic? :erm:

Wow. Some people have complicated lives. :shrug:

P.S. I just realized that your ex-husband has been married to a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim! Is a Buddhist next? :lol: (sorry, I couldn't resist - my apologies in advance for making fun of such a topic!)


Don't apologize, *I* think it's hysterical, and in fact, that was MY line for a long time! I mean, just pick one and stick with it, will ya?!

There IS actually a #4 on the horizon I hear, but I guess he's tired of conversion ceremonies: this one is a young Muslim woman from Canada. He hates the snow and cold and he's built an enormous modern home in Amman, so whether or not he'll relocate there, I don't know..... I suppose all divorced people think of their exes as crackpots to one extent or another, but this one IS a piece of work, truly. Goes to Mecca every year for the Hajj, but always in his brand new Mercedes, and only ditches the Gucci loafers long enough to waltz around the Kaaba a few times, then flies back to Fort Lauderdale first-class for another round of plastic surgery on his face, his eyes, his jaw, his hairline. (I saw him this summer--honest to God, he's beginning to look like that woman who looks like a cat!) Crazy as a bedbug..... :lol:

[MeMyselfAndI]

Since the original post here talks of Tatars, let me point something out. The word "Tatar", in fact, essentially stands for "Muslim". Originally, there was the ancient Volga Bulgar Kingdom. They were polytheistic, pagan. At some point in history, one part of its population converted to Orthodox Christianity, and called themselves Kryashens (Keräşen) and others took up Sunni Islam and became Tatars (Tatarlar). Some time later, there was a civil war, which the Muslim Tatars won, and so they took most of the land and spread on it, and dominate it to this day, which is why the modern Republic is called "Tatarstan". Tatars number about 6,000,000 country-wide; Kryashens are about 35,000.

So, "Tatar", in essense, means "Muslim". In fact, in old Tsarist Russia, all Muslim peoples, Dargins, Uzbeks, or Azerbaijanis, were called "Tatars".

Given this, if my wife is Tatar, and I am a Pomor, member of an ethnic group for whom its branch of Orthodox Christianity is a part of its ethnic identity; are our children then, indeed, half-Muslim half-Orthodox? :D

[Donkey]

Don't apologize, *I* think it's hysterical, and in fact, that was MY line for a long time! I mean, just pick one and stick with it, will ya?!

There IS actually a #4 on the horizon I hear, but I guess he's tired of conversion ceremonies: this one is a young Muslim woman from Canada. He hates the snow and cold and he's built an enormous modern home in Amman, so whether or not he'll relocate there, I don't know..... I suppose all divorced people think of their exes as crackpots to one extent or another, but this one IS a piece of work, truly. Goes to Mecca every year for the Hajj, but always in his brand new Mercedes, and only ditches the Gucci loafers long enough to waltz around the Kaaba a few times, then flies back to Fort Lauderdale first-class for another round of plastic surgery on his face, his eyes, his jaw, his hairline. (I saw him this summer--honest to God, he's beginning to look like that woman who looks like a cat!) Crazy as a bedbug..... :lol:

Sounds like a real piece of work! Probably someone to better have in your tail-lights than your headlights.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Given this, if my wife is Tatar, and I am a Pomor, member of an ethnic group for whom its branch of Orthodox Christianity is a part of its ethnic identity; are our children then, indeed, half-Muslim half-Orthodox? :D
Well, of course this is what the thread is about.
In my personal way of looking at things, Islam is all about what one believes, as is Christianity.
I have never heard anyone, until this thread, claim that one can be half-Christian or half-Muslim.
However, if someone wants me to refer to them as half-Christian or half-Muslim, I have no problem with that, as I said to The Drunk Guy at the beginning of this thread.
But I don't see the point of referring to ethnic Islam, ethnic Christianity, or indeed ethnic Judaism.

I mean, any glance at history books tells one HOW a group of people became whatever religion they became; money and sword. Far from honoring a religion by ethnically remaining it, even though you lose the faith, that religion should apologise to you for the way it seized your people.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Far from honoring a religion by ethnically remaining it, even though you lose the faith, that religion should apologise to you for the way it seized your people.

Well, that is a good question. The Orthodox church, for example, yes, it came upon Russia in a violent, often even bloody way
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4525/28036830.c5/0_7278e_f869e604_XL

But, certainly, the Faith also brought us vital progress. Greek Orthodox missionaries and now Saints, Cyril and Methodius created the first Russian alphabet, taught our ancestors how to write
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Kyrill%26Method.jpg

It was Orthodox monks like Saint Nestor, the Chronicler
http://www.cirota.ru/forum/images/112/112475.jpeg
who sat for hours, days, months, and years and wrote down our history, everything of importance that took place in their time; they were only ones who knew how to write back then, and they wrote and wrote and wrote; and thanks to them, we have today precious detailed accounts of those ancient, medieval days.

Saint Sergiy of Radonezh blessed Duke Dmitry Donskoi and his army for the Battle of the Kulikovo Field, where the Tatar-Mongol Yoke was thrown off
http://www.russdom.ru/oldsayte/2005/200510i/skrin.jpg
and the warrior-monk Aleksandr Peresvet gave his life for his faith and his people in that battle
http://pics.livejournal.com/itoogami/pic/0003f2a1/s640x480
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Peresv_b.jpg
He fought the Mongol's best warrior, Chelubei, one on one, and they killed each other (with their spears). This inspired the rest of the Russian army to smash the Tatars and Mongols.

There is a monument to Peresvet today at Kulikovo
http://www.922229.ru/images/phocagallery/avatars/bryansk/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_peresvet.jpg

The impact of the Orthodox faith and Orthodox Church on our history cannot be erased :shrug:

[nanacat]

Well, that is a good question. The Orthodox church, for example, yes, it came upon Russia in a violent, often even bloody way
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4525/28036830.c5/0_7278e_f869e604_XL

But, certainly, the Faith also brought us vital progress. Greek Orthodox missionaries and now Saints, Cyril and Methodius created the first Russian alphabet, taught our ancestors how to write
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Kyrill%26Method.jpg

It was Orthodox monks like Saint Nestor, the Chronicler
http://www.cirota.ru/forum/images/112/112475.jpeg
who sat for hours, days, months, and years and wrote down our history, everything of importance that took place in their time; they were only ones who knew how to write back then, and they wrote and wrote and wrote; and thanks to them, we have today precious detailed accounts of those ancient, medieval days.

Saint Sergiy of Radonezh blessed Duke Dmitry Donskoi and his army for the Battle of the Kulikovo Field, where the Tatar-Mongol Yoke was thrown off
http://www.russdom.ru/oldsayte/2005/200510i/skrin.jpg
and the warrior-monk Aleksandr Peresvet gave his life for his faith and his people in that battle
http://pics.livejournal.com/itoogami/pic/0003f2a1/s640x480
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Peresv_b.jpg
He fought the Mongol's best warrior, Chelubei, one on one, and they killed each other (with their spears). This inspired the rest of the Russian army to smash the Tatars and Mongols.

There is a monument to Peresvet today at Kulikovo
http://www.922229.ru/images/phocagallery/avatars/bryansk/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_peresvet.jpg

The impact of the Orthodox faith and Orthodox Church on our history cannot be erased :shrug:


Absolutely beautiful pictures, MMI, especially the icons.

And I agree totally with your last sentence. There was a little book that went round about 15 years ago. (It was part of a series; there was also one on the Jewish heritage and maybe another. I think the author's last name was Walsh--I'll look it up when I'm not sleep deprived. ) Anyway, this little book had the rather intriguing title of How the Irish Saved Civilization. Lovely sort of brag to all of us Irishmen out there, but a tad pompous at first glance, even to the Irish. But in it he describes the early monks in the monasteries in Ireland, all of them devoted to the hand copying and spreading not only of the early Gospel texts, but also all the Greek and Latin philosophy and history classics, and the pains they took to preserve all those texts when the Norse invasions came and basically destroyed all of Christian tradition in Western Europe. If it hadn't been for these Irish monks and their labors, what WOULD we have had left to build on by the time of the Enlightenment?

[Michael]

Absolutely beautiful pictures, MMI, especially the icons.

And I agree totally with your last sentence. There was a little book that went round about 15 years ago. (It was part of a series; there was also one on the Jewish heritage and maybe another. I think the author's last name was Walsh--I'll look it up when I'm not sleep deprived. ) Anyway, this little book had the rather intriguing title of How the Irish Saved Civilization. Lovely sort of brag to all of us Irishmen out there, but a tad pompous at first glance, even to the Irish. But in it he describes the early monks in the monasteries in Ireland, all of them devoted to the hand copying and spreading not only of the early Gospel texts, but also all the Greek and Latin philosophy and history classics, and the pains they took to preserve all those texts when the Norse invasions came and basically destroyed all of Christian tradition in Western Europe. If it hadn't been for these Irish monks and their labors, what WOULD we have had left to build on by the time of the Enlightenment?
I don't want to derail this thread, but I've heard this statement made previously, yet I've never seen any trace of Irish sourcing for Europe's 'rediscovery' of Greek & Latin classics. Every source that I'm aware of comes through Sicily (conquered by Normans in the 11th century) or via the Middle East (Crusades) or Spain (The Reconquest). :shrug:

Indeed, I'd wonder how the Irish monks got their hands on Greek & Latin texts in the first place since Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire. :ummm:

[nanacat]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I've heard this statement made previously, yet I've never seen any trace of Irish sourcing for Europe's 'rediscovery' of Greek & Latin classics. Every source that I'm aware of comes through Sicily (conquered by Normans in the 11th century) or via the Middle East (Crusades) or Spain (The Reconquest). :shrug:

Indeed, I'd wonder how the Irish monks got their hands on Greek & Latin texts in the first place since Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire. :ummm:


Indeed, the reviews of this book were mixed, but here's a legitimate one that supports Cahill's book. [Not Walsh. aaaaargh!] He DID write companion books about Jews and Greeks and their contributions as well. And admittedly, he's less Norman Davies and more Simon Shama--and an unabashed Irish Simon Shama at that--in his historical approach.

http://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/thomas-cahill/how-the-irish-saved-civilization/#review

[shekib82]

The below quote is from this thead
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2997


Can one be half-Muslim?
I say no, certainly not. You are either Muslim or you aren't Muslim, in my book?

But what do other people think?


what you and people in the west (especially protestant countries) in general don't understand is how in the east your religion is just like your ethnicity. There haven't been mass conversion of christian orthodoxy, Catholicism or Islam for centuries if not for a millenia in the east. In the east, the people who have been muslims have been so for generations, same goes for the christians.

Furthermore, in the east, people are identified as muslims or orthodox or Catholics even if they don't believe in God. So, when someone says that such is half muslim it is meant to be taken in the same way as when an american says that he is half polish.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

what you and people in the west (especially protestant countries) in general don't understand is how in the east your religion is just like your ethnicity. There haven't been mass conversion of christian orthodoxy, Catholicism or Islam for centuries if not for a millenia in the east. In the east, the people who have been muslims have been so for generations, same goes for the christians.

Furthermore, in the east, people are identified as muslims or orthodox or Catholics even if they don't believe in God. So, when someone says that such is half muslim it is meant to be taken in the same way as when an american says that he is half polish.
Yes, but for me personally, and for many other people in the West, Christian is about what one believes, not what one's parents believed, and the same applies to Muslim.

But of course, not everyone in the west thinks like me on this matter, but many do.

We are free in the west, and acknowledge that sometimes definitions are a bit hazy.

[shekib82]

Yes, but for me personally, and for many other people in the West, Christian is about what one believes, not what one's parents believed, and the same applies to Muslim.

But of course, not everyone in the west thinks like me on this matter, but many do.

We are free in the west, and acknowledge that sometimes definitions are a bit hazy.

Yes, I realize this and as i said, in the east it is very closely associated to your ethnicity. And this is something that the west grants to one group of people there: the jews. A jew is considered a jew regardless of what he believes, if he happens to have a jewish mother.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

And this is something that the west grants to one group of people there: the jews. A jew is considered a jew regardless of what he believes, if he happens to have a jewish mother.
No, I don't think it is the west which 'grants' it. Jews say they are still Jewish if they stop believing, and Westerners respect that. We'd do the same for Muslims or Christians, but most of them want to lose those classifications when they lose their faith.

[Michael]

Yes, I realize this and as i said, in the east it is very closely associated to your ethnicity. And this is something that the west grants to one group of people there: the jews. A jew is considered a jew regardless of what he believes, if he happens to have a jewish mother.

Accepting the idea that Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion is, in reality, a statement of contempt towards Judaism, ethnicity and religion.

You will find lots of that amongst us secular 1st world types. :D

[shekib82]

Accepting the idea that Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion is, in reality, a statement of contempt towards Judaism, ethnicity and religion.

You will find lots of that amongst us secular 1st world types. :D

secular first world type Jews, consider themselves Jews despite the fact that they don't believe in God.

[shekib82]

No, I don't think it is the west which 'grants' it. Jews say they are still Jewish if they stop believing, and Westerners respect that. We'd do the same for Muslims or Christians, but most of them want to lose those classifications when they lose their faith.

Well, in the middle east, you have atheist muslims and atheist christians. They would still belong to the church and mosque even if they don't believe in the religion. And this is because this religious identity is the one that has defined their history for generations.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, in the middle east, you have atheist muslims and atheist christians. They would still belong to the church and mosque even if they don't believe in the religion. And this is because this religious identity is the one that has defined their history for generations.

Most of my friends are atheists or agnostics with Christian family backgrounds. None of them would want to be called Christian.

There are some exceptions of course, like The Drunk Guy, on this forum. He claims to be ethnically Christian, but non-believing - but he is not an EU person. Perhaps we are different.

[shekib82]

Most of my friends are atheists or agnostics with Christian family backgrounds. None of them would want to be called Christian.

There are some exceptions of course, like The Drunk Guy, on this forum. He claims to be ethnically Christian, but non-believing - but he is not an EU person. Perhaps we are different.

as i say in the east and mainly in countries that did not have a reformation. It is not that they consider themselves christians as in following christ, but rather as belonging to a group of people who have a shared history.

This is reinforced by the law, which when recognizing citizens also labels them with a religion. In a lot of middle eastern countries, you can't legally be an atheist.

[Michael]

as i say in the east and mainly in countries that did not have a reformation. It is not that they consider themselves christians as in following christ, but rather as belonging to a group of people who have a shared history.

This is reinforced by the law, which when recognizing citizens also labels them with a religion. In a lot of middle eastern countries, you can't legally be an atheist.
Yes, that's the general interpretation here - that religious labels are often taken to be just a cultural reference and not an indication of actual religious belief.

Btw, it is only fairly recently (in my lifetime) that most Western governments have permitted census takers to record "no religion" for any given citizen. Up until then, even if you stated "no religion" on a census form, the census takers would just record your religion as the same as your parents/family or they would just fill in "Christian" anyway (or record "other" to imply that you do have a religion). To this day, almost all surveys on religion in western countries are designed to hide and under-report the non-religious and over-report the Christians (using a 'cultural' definition not a religious one).

That being said, I will admit that although I am a product of a pseudo-Christian culture, I will vehemently deny being a Christian. I definitely would consider it a mortal insult if anyone accused me of being a Christian in any way.

[shekib82]

Yes, that's the general interpretation here - that religious labels are often taken to be just a cultural reference and not an indication of actual religious belief.

Btw, it is only fairly recently (in my lifetime) that most Western governments have permitted census takers to record "no religion" for any given citizen. Up until then, even if you stated "no religion" on a census form, the census takers would just record your religion as the same as your parents/family or they would just fill in "Christian" anyway (or record "other" to imply that you do have a religion). To this day, almost all surveys on religion in western countries are designed to hide and under-report the non-religious and over-report the Christians (using a 'cultural' definition not a religious one).

That being said, I will admit that although I am a product of a pseudo-Christian culture, I will vehemently deny being a Christian. I definitely would consider it a mortal insult if anyone accused me of being a Christian in any way.


I personally don't think that anyone who is born of christian parents, or mulsim parent, etc.. should become christian, jew, muslim.... I think people should choose what they believe in. If someone is an atheist, he should have the option of being counted as such.

I think for the middle east and for my country having more people choose their own religions, and not having laws that force them to stay in a certain religion is essential for peace.

But I was just pointing out earlier what peoples in the east largely beleive and how their history and culture is mixed with their religion

[Michael]

I personally don't think that anyone who is born of christian parents, or mulsim parent, etc.. should become christian, jew, muslim.... I think people should choose what they believe in. If someone is an atheist, he should have the option of being counted as such.

Extensive studies upon the topic of 'religious choice' in the USA has shown that parental religion is the overwhelming factor in determining one's religion.

That is to say, religious belief (like political partisanship) is mostly inherited. Most people don't actually choose their religion - it is served to them with their mother's milk (with a whole lot of cultural pressure laid on top to punish the freethinkers). The idea is to make people religious long before they are old enough to have any faculties of intellectual choice.

I think for the middle east and for my country having more people choose their own religions, and not having laws that force them to stay in a certain religion is essential for peace.

But I was just pointing out earlier what peoples in the east largely beleive and how their history and culture is mixed with their religion
I strongly doubt if people actually choose their religion in the Middle East. I'm willing to bet that one's religion has a corelation with parental religion well above 85% (if not higher) - just like everywhere else. I don't think the Middle East is unusual in this respect - indeed the available evidence suggests that the Middle East is more culturally conservative than just about anywhere else - especially in matters of religion. I will point to Coptic Christians as a good example of this - this an extreme religious minority that has disappeared from everywhere well over 1000 years ago - except in the Middle East where it continues to this day in small tightly knit communities - veritable islands surrounded by Muslims.

As for mixing culture and history, that is clearly one of the secular goals of religion - to make religion so all-encompassing that one literally cannot escape from it.

Btw, for the record, Iran and the USA typically score the highest for being the 'most religious' countries in the world.

[Donkey]

If you grow up religious you don't choose religion until you consider leaving but decide to stay.

[shekib82]

Extensive studies upon the topic of 'religious choice' in the USA has shown that parental religion is the overwhelming factor in determining one's religion.

That is to say, religious belief (like political partisanship) is mostly inherited. Most people don't actually choose their religion - it is served to them with their mother's milk (with a whole lot of cultural pressure laid on top to punish the freethinkers). The idea is to make people religious long before they are old enough to have any faculties of intellectual choice.


I strongly doubt if people actually choose their religion in the Middle East. I'm willing to bet that one's religion has a corelation with parental religion well above 85% (if not higher) - just like everywhere else. I don't think the Middle East is unusual in this respect - indeed the available evidence suggests that the Middle East is more culturally conservative than just about anywhere else - especially in matters of religion. I will point to Coptic Christians as a good example of this - this an extreme religious minority that has disappeared from everywhere well over 1000 years ago - except in the Middle East where it continues to this day in small tightly knit communities - veritable islands surrounded by Muslims.

As for mixing culture and history, that is clearly one of the secular goals of religion - to make religion so all-encompassing that one literally cannot escape from it.

Btw, for the record, Iran and the USA typically score the highest for being the 'most religious' countries in the world.

what is said was that is would be a good thing for people in the middle east to choose their religion, not that they are doing so now. Right, now a very tiny minority in the middle east actually chooses their religion ( by converting to another religion). Most take the religion of their parents as elsewhere around the world, which brings a lot of problems.

[shekib82]

If you grow up religious you don't choose religion until you consider leaving but decide to stay.

yes, that's what happened to me. I grew up religious. Then i became an atheist for a while. Then I decided to come back.

[Michael]

yes, that's what happened to me. I grew up religious. Then i became an atheist for a while. Then I decided to come back.

Then that is a genuine religious choice and I can respect that. While I'm not an admirer of any religion, I'm not anti-religious. :)