"Demographic crisis" of the urban middle class

[Donkey]

Absolutely. Poverty drives high birth rates just as wealth drives lower birth rates.

As I noted above, Russia is rather unique in that it has suffered a huge population drop - so the wealthy do have a vested interest in a temporarily high birthrate right now. This is an anomoly, not a counter to the theory.

I also would say that the ultra-wealthy are a really bad example of social trends. For instance, for all those wealthy men, I bet none of their wives even think about working. So a millionaire fanatic wants a heard of offspring? Pfff. It's like a feudal lord "needing" dozens of sprogs.

How many kids are the families whose combined income is in the (Russian equivalent of) $80-200k range having? That is a lot more informative.

[Donkey]

GLITCH!!!!

My last post jumped to the top of this thread. Will this one too?


Edit: yep. And a double post?

[Donkey]

GLITCH!!!!

My last post jumped to the top of this thread. Will this one too?

[MeMyselfAndI]

GLITCH!!!!

My last post jumped to the top of this thread. Will this one too?

And it did not show on the front page either... Strange.

[MeMyselfAndI]

I also would say that the ultra-wealthy are a really bad example of social trends. For instance, for all those wealthy men, I bet none of their wives even think about working. So a millionaire fanatic wants a heard of offspring? Pfff. It's like a feudal lord "needing" dozens of sprogs.

How many kids are the families whose combined income is in the (Russian equivalent of) $80-200k range having? That is a lot more informative.

$200,000? That's a lot of money... I am earning, right now, about $82,000. So, I suppose I fall into that category. Well, we have 2, soon 3. Most of my "peers", others I know in my economic class, have 1 or 2, except those like me, who are religiously observant.

That is an important thing. Large families in Russia, rich or poor, tend to be families of religious people
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/724/mnogodetnayasemya1.gif

Here, it is usually at church, where you would see that, couples with 3 or more children with them
http://www.nsad.ru/pic/napolnie.jpg
http://forum.materinstvo.ru/uploads/1197241471//post-221-1197489235.jpeg

[MeMyselfAndI]

The common view about families is that the wealthier it is, the less children there are in it. At least, that is what I've read from Michael and others. Well, in Russia that is not entirely true.

After rating 100 families of millioners in Russia, researchers have found that, on average, each family in that caste has 2.4 children. This is compared to the 2002 national average of 1.4 (and current about 1.6 to 1.8)
http://nikitskij.livejournal.com/65408.html

In fact, many very successful men in this country have large families.

Roman Avdeev is mentioned first, of course
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/00047tq4

Other rich men he talks about

Andrei Skoch, member of Duma, head of the Expert Council in Metallurgy, co-owner of corporations "Gazmetall" and "Metalloinvest".
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/000487x4
and good friends with Russia's once most powerful mafia group, the Solntsevo Brotherhood
http://criminalnaya.ru/_ph/1/2/586392205.jpg
(He is 3d from left in bottom row, rest are various high ranked Solntsevo gangsters including, top left, Vladimir Gurchenkov, nickname "Boss", Thief-in-Law/Godfather in
the group) But one could say the same about most wealthy people in Russia ;)

Anyway, Skoch, worth currently about $3.9 billion, is a happy father of 7.

Roman Abramovich, you all heard of him, owner of Chelsea FC. 6 children, 5 by former wife Irina Malandina
http://compromat.info/main/abramovich/image/fotoalbom8.jpg
http://compromat.info/main/abramovich/image/fotoalbom4.jpg
whom he divroced in 2007; and, recently, a son from current girlfriend Daria Zhukova
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/00049tw5

Igor Altushkin, Russia "Aluminium King" ($1.1 billion)
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/0004a748
6 children

Brothers Sergei and Nikolai Sarkisov
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/0004by1q
owners of "RESO-Garantia" investment firm, 5 children each.

Aleksandr Japaridze
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/0004c7bq
owner and CEO of "Evrazia Oil Drilling Company", personal worth $2.1 billion. 5 children.

Ziad Manasir
http://pics.livejournal.com/nikitskij/pic/0004dz4h
Jordanian-born co-owner and manager of "Stroigazkonsulting". 5 children.

I would also mention some others:

Brothers Aleksei and Dmitry Ananiev
http://mirvam.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/1374953_20110516155204.jpg
Russia's wealtheist family, bankers. 4 children each.

German Sterligov
http://www.sostav.ru/articles/rus/2009/columns/efir/images/sterligov_text6.jpg5 children

Among others.

On the other hand, there are plenty of large families in the poor villages, especially in Siberia, in Far North, and Caucasus.

So, the ones, in Russia, who are holding us all back demographically are the urban middle class :lol: Well, me and Karina are trying to do our part to change that :D Child #3 will not be last one.

[Donkey]

Low birth rate doesn't hold a country back, though.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Low birth rate doesn't hold a country back, though.

Of course it does. A country needs a young labor force ;) Somebody has to take care of the elders too.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

But doesn't German Sterligov live a modest, and frugal life, as demanded by Jesus of all Christians?

[MeMyselfAndI]

But doesn't German Sterligov live a modest, and frugal life, as demanded by Jesus of all Christians?

He does. Not all of them do. Some are even friends with gangsters, as I mentioned :D

Not that German was always an angel either...

You should have seen him in the 90s
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/03/article-1104672-02E92E75000005DC-803_468x562.jpg
Back then, he was well known in mafia circles in Saint Petersburg. Not just known, feared.

Sterligov personally broke rival's legs in 90s
http://kidalovo.com/news.php?readmore=3635

There is a reason he moved so far away, to a fortified compound
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bdB5ldJgrBY/S69RvZjOl2I/AAAAAAAAAtY/yZpfXu2bpDY/s1600/s99948.jpg
and surrounded himself with well-armed and loyal people.

He has many enemies, from his past...

[Michael]

Of course it does. A country needs a young labor force ;) Somebody has to take care of the elders too.

Facts speak for themselves. The countries in this world with the highest levels of prosperity are those with the lowest birthrates.

Conversely, those countries with the highest birthrates fill the ranks of the poorest countries in the world.

So don't tell us that a high birthrate makes a country rich - it doesn't - it makes you poor.

I can easily list a dozen reasons why a high birthrate causes widespread poverty. Similarly, there are a dozen reasons why rich countries always have low birthrates.

All that being said, I will admit that Russia is a bit of a unique case since Russia has already suffered a massive population drop over the last two decades, so there is some rational justification for needing a higher birthrate just to restore the nation to previous levels of demand, but an increasing birthrate will still definitely decrease the overall wealth of the nation.

[Donkey]

High birth rates may contribute to poverty, but if you look at it from a causal basis, I suspect it's more the other way 'round.

[Michael]

High birth rates may contribute to poverty, but if you look at it from a causal basis, I suspect it's more the other way 'round.

Absolutely. Poverty drives high birth rates just as wealth drives lower birth rates.

As I noted above, Russia is rather unique in that it has suffered a huge population drop - so the wealthy do have a vested interest in a temporarily high birthrate right now. This is an anomoly, not a counter to the theory.