Imposing Liberalism on Conservatives

[The Drunk Guy]

The ultra-Orthodox consider the school, which moved to its present site at the beginning of the school year, an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of black-hatted men jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, claiming their very presence is a provocation.
Beit Shemesh has long experienced friction between the ultra-Orthodox, who make up about half the city's population, and other residents. And residents say the attacks at the girls' school, attended by about 400 students, have been going on for months. Last week, after a local TV channel reported about the school and interviewed Naama's family, a national uproar ensued.
The televised images of Naama sobbing as she walked to school shocked many Israelis, elicited statements of outrage from the country's leadership, sparked a Facebook page with nearly 10,000 followers dedicated to "protecting little Naama" and a demonstration was held Tuesday evening in her honor. As the case has attracted attention, extremists have heckled and thrown eggs and rocks at journalists descending on town.
"Who's afraid of an 8-year-old student?" said Sunday's main headline in the leading Yediot Ahronot daily.


Source (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20111227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gender_segregation)

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are offended by the modernity of Orthodox Jews. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews want to be closed from these sinful creatures, but space is tight in Israel.

Anyway, the whole thing made me think about all the cloistered communities of the world. Polygamists in the American southwest to Sharia-following communities in Afghanistan. Should they be left to their own devices or should they bow to civilization?

[Donkey]

Source (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20111227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gender_segregation)

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are offended by the modernity of Orthodox Jews. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews want to be closed from these sinful creatures, but space is tight in Israel.

Anyway, the whole thing made me think about all the cloistered communities of the world. Polygamists in the American southwest to Sharia-following communities in Afghanistan. Should they be left to their own devices or should they bow to civilization?

Well in this case, they ARE being left to their own fuckwad devices. But not content with that, they feel the need to emerge from their little holes and verbally abuse young children.

Fuck 'em.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Source (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20111227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gender_segregation)

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are offended by the modernity of Orthodox Jews. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews want to be closed from these sinful creatures, but space is tight in Israel.

Anyway, the whole thing made me think about all the cloistered communities of the world. Polygamists in the American southwest to Sharia-following communities in Afghanistan. Should they be left to their own devices or should they bow to civilization?

That is what the local government in the Russian Far Eastern region Primorsky krai has tried to do with their large, but remote Old Orthodox population. They built modern community dwellings and, as an experiment, moved a large Old Orthodox clan into one. Seemingly it had everything for them: fields to farm; a chapel; etc. But they quickly ran into problems: the Old Orthodox refused to send their children to regular government-ran school, prefering to teach them what they felt the children needed to learn at their religious-based classes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0kg2PqfC_A

They are now threatening to return back to the forest, if the government does not leave them alone.

My point is, yes, these unique communities are best left to own choices and own devices.

[Americano]

Source (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20111227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gender_segregation)

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are offended by the modernity of Orthodox Jews. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews want to be closed from these sinful creatures, but space is tight in Israel.

Anyway, the whole thing made me think about all the cloistered communities of the world. Polygamists in the American southwest to Sharia-following communities in Afghanistan. Should they be left to their own devices or should they bow to civilization?

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism) has a decent page on Haredi Judaism (Ultra-Orthodox) which covers the history including their current political influence in Israel. It does clarify the issue beyond current media sensationalism.

Due to that history I can't compare them to Brigham Young followers modifying a belief system to comply with government demand. Those folks did that to qualify for statehood and the federal goodies provided. Regarding Afghanistan, the vast majority of its citizenry adheres to Sharia Law and, regardless of idealistic dreams, that's not something subject to change by anything less than absolute genocide.

Israeli government will somewhat cover for them as they've long been government subsidized and used to settle the West Bank. Your observation of limited, habitable space in Israel is a key issue. They do have their own schools and government expansion of same would be one way to resolve the issue. Given their extensive history I don't see them giving in anytime soon to the socialism of Israel's contemporary trend to 'Jewish Nationalism'. Maybe in the future if Israel ever achieves a viable, self-sufficient economy.

[Greendruid]

Israeli government will somewhat cover for them as they've long been government subsidized and used to settle the West Bank. Your observation of limited, habitable space in Israel is a key issue. They do have their own schools and government expansion of same would be one way to resolve the issue. Given their extensive history I don't see them giving in anytime soon to the socialism of Israel's contemporary trend to 'Jewish Nationalism'. Maybe in the future if Israel ever achieves a viable, self-sufficient economy.

Israel has little water left to consume. Their state will die due to mismanagement and overpopulation.

[Americano]

Israel has little water left to consume. Their state will die due to mismanagement and overpopulation.

Agreed. These trifling social issues are small change when compared to their water problems. Here's (http://www.think-israel.org/sherman.water.html) a decent read on that situation.

I'm not a fan of Israel and believe they'll reap what they've planted - nothing. US economic aid to Israel (17% of government revenue without military aid) and geographical expansion by military force have allowed Israel to achieve an unjustified standard of living in a country devoid of natural wealth.

[Michael]

Source (http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20111227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gender_segregation)

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are offended by the modernity of Orthodox Jews. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews want to be closed from these sinful creatures, but space is tight in Israel.

Anyway, the whole thing made me think about all the cloistered communities of the world. Polygamists in the American southwest to Sharia-following communities in Afghanistan. Should they be left to their own devices or should they bow to civilization?

I don't have a problem with leaving these segregationists to self-segregate.

My issue is about not pandering to them. Those who choose to self-segregate have ZERO right to expect any respect from anyone and have ZERO rights to segregation. If unwanted neighbors move in too close, the self-segregationists ought to pack up and move to an even more secluded place. Demanding others respect the self-segregating wishes of the segregationists is absurd.

In other words, I'm all for supporting busloads of women and non-whites to be going through Jerusalem. The more that annoys the Ultra Orthodox, the better.

The only rational solution for the Ultra Orthodox (or any others who want to self-segregate) is to move to the Sahara desert, Antartica or Siberia where they can have complete segregation.

[The Drunk Guy]

I don't have a problem with leaving these segregationists to self-segregate.

My issue is about not pandering to them. Those who choose to self-segregate have ZERO right to expect any respect from anyone and have ZERO rights to segregation. If unwanted neighbors move in too close, the self-segregationists ought to pack up and move to an even more secluded place. Demanding others respect the self-segregating wishes of the segregationists is absurd.

In other words, I'm all for supporting busloads of women and non-whites to be going through Jerusalem. The more that annoys the Ultra Orthodox, the better.

The only rational solution for the Ultra Orthodox (or any others who want to self-segregate) is to move to the Sahara desert, Antartica or Siberia where they can have complete segregation.
I agree completely. I guess my real query is deeper. Is it moral for society to let the children of these folks follow their brain-washing dogma? For instance, should we ignore the 13-year-old wives of polygamists simply because their group is secluded. (Ignore state laws for this. I'm just using that as an example.)

[Americano]

I agree completely. I guess my real query is deeper. Is it moral for society to let the children of these folks follow their brain-washing dogma? For instance, should we ignore the 13-year-old wives of polygamists simply because their group is secluded. (Ignore state laws for this. I'm just using that as an example.)

Pardon my cynicism but aren't moral issues most often decided by which dogma has the larger numbers/followers and subsequent greater political power? I use the American The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and countries with devout Muslim populations following Sharia Law as examples for discussion of polygamy.

As a side note: in the US we're barely into a century of women being considered more than male personal property by the Christian majority. Staunch Baptists and other other Christian fundamentalists still aren't there.

[Donkey]

Pardon my cynicism but aren't moral issues most often decided by which dogma has the larger numbers/followers and subsequent greater political power? I use the American The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and countries with devout Muslim populations following Sharia Law as examples for discussion of polygamy.

As a side note: in the US we're barely into a century of women being considered more than male personal property by the Christian majority. Staunch Baptists and other other Christian fundamentalists still aren't there.

Is that where you draw your morals from?

[Non Sequitur]

I agree completely. I guess my real query is deeper. Is it moral for society to let the children of these folks follow their brain-washing dogma? For instance, should we ignore the 13-year-old wives of polygamists simply because their group is secluded. (Ignore state laws for this. I'm just using that as an example.)

I am uncomfortable with that precedent. It seems to me that the end result would be society becoming extremely authoritarian based on what morals it happened to not like.

[Non Sequitur]

Plus, speaking as one who used to apply the conservative label to himself, forcing anything on people is not exactly a good way to go.

[Donkey]

Plus, speaking as one who used to apply the conservative label to himself, forcing anything on people is not exactly a good way to go.

Well, I think it is also antithetical to the premises of liberalism, which is where TDG's initial quandary comes in.

[Americano]

Is that where you draw your morals from?

What do my morals have to do with a forum discussion? Perhaps you can force yourself to concentrate on the subject rather than personal remarks?

[Non Sequitur]

Well, I think it is also antithetical to the premises of liberalism, which is where TDG's initial quandary comes in.

Right. So we are back to my constant point: we are either true to our principles or we are not. If we are, we kind of have accept things we don't like (within reason). If we are not true to our principles let's end the doublespeak and just admit it.

[Donkey]

What do my morals have to do with a forum discussion? Perhaps you can force yourself to concentrate on the subject rather than personal remarks?

Well TDG asked for opinions on what is appropriate. It isn't that relevant to me what other people think is appropriate when it comes to enforcing my morality, or not, others. Your cynicism may or may not be accurate, but it's not really that relevant.

[Americano]

I am uncomfortable with that precedent. It seems to me that the end result would be society becoming extremely authoritarian based on what morals it happened to not like.

Seems somewhat standard throughout history. We could use the attempt at polygamy in the US, outlawed but still commonly practiced by Mormon fundamentalists. Ironically, a majority of those fundamentalists practicing polygamy use US federal and state aid for dependent mothers to financially maintain those wives beyond the primary (legal) wife.

[Donkey]

What do my morals have to do with a forum discussion? Perhaps you can force yourself to concentrate on the subject rather than personal remarks?

To clarify what I meant, morals may run common in individuals in groups, but individuals hold their morality, not the groups. As such, what is or is not moral categorically can't be decided, as you suggest, by groups. The individual's morality is often influenced by others, but not decided.

Look at the debate over gay marriage, for instance.

[Americano]

Well TDG asked for opinions on what is appropriate. It isn't that relevant to me what other people think is appropriate when it comes to enforcing my morality, or not, others. Your cynicism may or may not be accurate, but it's not really that relevant.

Again, I was pointing out how society judges morality, which is relevant as it normally constitutes law of the land as described in my examples. Personal emotion/opinion on issues of morality don't change that fact.

[Non Sequitur]

Seems somewhat standard throughout history. We could use the attempt at polygamy in the US, outlawed but still commonly practiced by Mormon fundamentalists. Ironically, a majority of those fundamentalists practicing polygamy use US federal and state aid for dependent mothers to financially maintain those wives beyond the primary (legal) wife.

Sure it's common practice, but that isn't really an argument. A lot of things are common practice throughout history (murder, theft, pain). Doesn't mean we can't try and do something else.

[Americano]

Sure it's common practice, but that isn't really an argument. A lot of things are common practice throughout history (murder, theft, pain). Doesn't mean we can't try and do something else.

Without tangible incentive or force it's difficult getting any herd turned around and moving in a different direction. Complacency.is king to the masses.

[Michael]

Is that where you draw your morals from?

Who 'draws morals' from anything? Morals are not things that are chosen.

If anything, they are subconscious and highly subjective - and highly subject to cultural, political and commerical manipulations!

[Michael]

I am uncomfortable with that precedent. It seems to me that the end result would be society becoming extremely authoritarian based on what morals it happened to not like.

Indeed, I agree. That's why I'm willing to tolerate those self-segregationists (but only if they remove themselves to remote places).

As far as I'm concerned, the danger of an authortarian state enforcing morality is a far greater danger to society than some obscure and remote self-segretationists engaging in multiple marriages with 13yo brides. :shrug:

Bottom line is that I may not like what those polygamists are doing (and I don't) but the state powers needed to deal with them are far too dangerous to use.

[Americano]

Who 'draws morals' from anything? Morals are not things that are chosen.

If anything, they are subconscious and highly subjective - and highly subject to cultural, political and commerical manipulations!

Many professional lives have been and are devoted to determination of how ethics/morality are derived. Even genetics play a role. I haven't looked at it in a long time but there's always been agreement that society in the form of culture including the supernatural aspect of religion, formative childhood years, peer groups and redundent propaganda (pick your flavor) all play roles in conscious and subconscious decisions on moral issues. Yes, the conscious determinations are as subjective as anything can get.

Years of professional psychoanalysis can often dig out answers for some interested enough to pursue such matters, but aside from devoted clergy/followers dependent on dogma most will go to their graves with little understanding of what actually determines their often surprisingly adaptable ethics/morality.