Gay propaganda, thread II

[MeMyselfAndI]

I just watched the show NTVshniki on NTV channel, where notable journalists, politicians, and others come together to discuss important issues of the time.

In this one, they were talking about the new anti-gay laws. Interestingly, among the group in defense of gays were human righst activist Nikolay Alexeyev (leader of Russia's LGBT movement)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Alexeyev
http://www.gayrussia.eu/upload/iblock/f75/alekseevarrest2010big.jpg
who, as the picture shows, has been arrested and beaten many times for organising and taking part in gay rallies and such.

Singer Lolita Milyavskaya
http://www.blatata.com/uploads/posts/2011-01/1295624350_lolita.jpg

Svetlana a mother of a young opnely gay man (who also spoke later)

and some other guy I don't know, some activist.

On the anti-gay side were

Orthodox priest, Igumen (Head Monk) Anatoly Berestov
http://s21.fotosklad.org.ua/20110520/d85d66b22cc8f01d8659305fcafa3edc1305864649.jpg
a "Orthodox Christian psychologist" who specialising in, supposedly, using the "power of God" to cure addictions, from alcoholism to gambling to narcomania; but who also claims to cure homosexuality, and to have already putin a dozen formerly gay men "on the right path".

Two Duma members, who support the new laws.

And the conservative community activist who first called for the implementation of the laws.

It was a nasty exchange, no other word for it. The Holy Father called gays "sodomites", and "sinners", but invited any who want to come to him, to "earn God's forgiveness". The female Duma member equalised gays with pedophiles and said that, as a Orthodox woman, and a mother of three small children herself, she understands that the people of Russia "want our vulnerable little ones protected from this disgusting Satanic horde", while the male Duma member said that the LGBT organisations have been acting "aggressively" and "insluted our people, their beliefs and culture", and so it is time to "hit back".

But what was especially funny to me were the pro-gay side's arguments. For one, they brought up Brezhnev, the Soviet leader, who amused the world by kissing with others he met includng other men
http://buro247.ru/local/images/buro/010201475234001_jpg_1309902442.jpghttp://baltermants.ru/media/img/photos/BaltermantsYr218-287.110317.jpg
http://baltermants.ru/media/img/photos/Baltermants014.110317.jpg
The fact is, in Russian culture, when two friends meet, no matter if same gender, it is perfectly acceptable for them to kiss one another, especially among women, but men too, often enough. It is fine for a father to kiss his son.

Yet under the new laws, if two men kiss in public, they could be arrested.

Also, they questioned the anti-gay people's assertion that they are against gay parades because of "indecency" of all the naked men together.

As Alexeyev asked, "Have not you ever been to a banya?"
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3467/165620.jpg
:rofl:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

You say it was a nasty exchance, but you only provide examples of nastiness and aggression on the part of the anti-gay people. (satanic hordes, disgusting, sodomites, comparing them to paedophiles, sinners, in need of forgiveness)

Was there any nastiness on the part of the pro-gay people?

Words cannot describe the respect I have for someone as courageous as Nikolay Alexeyev.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

PS: Having read the initial posting, the title of this thread is a bit misleading - it's not a thread about gay propaganda at all. It's a thread about people discussing a law banning gay propaganda.

[MeMyselfAndI]

You say it was a nasty exchance, but you only provide examples of nastiness and aggression on the part of the anti-gay people. (satanic hordes, disgusting, sodomites, comparing them to paedophiles, sinners, in need of forgiveness)

Was there any nastiness on the part of the pro-gay people?

Words cannot describe the respect I have for someone as courageous as Nikolay Alexeyev.

Not really. Though there were heated moments. But, most of the aggression and nastiness came from the anti-gay side, yes. Like, when Svetlana said to the Duma woman, "What if one of your sons turns out to be a gay when he is older?", and she answers "None of my children will have this filth in them, I raise them right!"

And, yes, I also think Alexeyev is a brave guy. He said one interesting thing too: "All you here condemning those like us, you think being a gay in Russia is something to envy? You think this life, where every day you could be spat on, insulted, beaten, even killed on the street; banned from a wide range of professions; from the Church; all just because of who you are, because of the way you were born; you think people choose that? Who would willingly want to live like that?"

They had many stories... This one 16 year old boy whose own father and older brother beat him unconscious after he told him he was homosexual...

I used to dislike gays too... Like most here. But now, I feel sorry for them.

PS: Having read the initial posting, the title of this thread is a bit misleading - it's not a thread about gay propaganda at all. It's a thread about people discussing a law banning gay propaganda.

Well, I was just showing this is the continuation of that previous thread.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Respect to you MeMyselfandI. If you are genuinely changing your mind to some extent.

And I want to remind you that I know that there are many good things about being conservative, as well, but when I discuss with you I am on the modern-liberal side, I am often on the conservative side when discussing with other people ;)

[MeMyselfAndI]

It does not matter. I ahve come to this conclusion just now, it does not matter, if you or I are conservative or liberal, or whatever else. In this case, here in Russia, it is not conservatives or liberals, it is the government that is driving the new persecution against the gays.

This is familiar, reminds me of what my father told about the Brezhnev era (1965-1975). Back then, just as now, the government wanted to unite the people, and the only thing that can truly unite the peoples of Russia is a common enemy, external (the West/NATO) or internal (now - gays; back then - Jews). Brezhnev's government took people's discontent and anger from itself and deflected it unto the enemy of choice, the Jews. Antisemitic propaganda was very common in those years. Such books as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and even Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, were reprinted and widely available at bookstores throughout the Union. Jewish students were banned from more prestigious faculties at Soviet universities under the justification that they will take advantage of the freeeducation there and then emigrate to Israel or elsewhere, and the Motherland's resources would therefore be wasted on them. The Communist Youth, the youth arm of the Party, regularly "exposed suspected Zionists" at schools, universities, in workplaces. It was a witchhunt, nobody was safe. Some high profile Soviet Jews even became Zionist hunters themselves, to save their careers and families and themselves.

The current anti-gay motions are reminding me of the athmosphere 40 years ago. And, also, of a story my father told me, about how he helped hide a Jewish army friend (accused of Zionism and sentenced, in absentia, to 10 years in GULag) at the village and smuggle him to Finland later. I asked him why he went to the trouble, especially with the danger to himself and the family. That was when he told me the stoory of our own people, that, once, when the New Orthodox Church was emerging in Russia, we Old Orthodox, were like the Jews in the 1960s and 70s, and like the gays now. Back then, hundreds of years ago, we were the enemy, to be hunted, persecuted, and murdered...

My father is one of those Old Orthodox who remember such things and think that, as those who experienced it first hand, we must now help any persecuted minority in Russia, rather then help persecute them. Unfortunately, there are plenty of younger conformists who have made peace with the new Church, and go along with their ideology...

[NickKIELCEPoland]

It does not matter. I ahve come to this conclusion just now, it does not matter, if you or I are conservative or liberal, or whatever else. In this case, here in Russia, it is not conservatives or liberals, it is the government that is driving the new persecution against the gays.

This is familiar, reminds me of what my father told about the Brezhnev era (1965-1975). Back then, just as now, the government wanted to unite the people, and the only thing that can truly unite the peoples of Russia is a common enemy, external (the West/NATO) or internal (now - gays; back then - Jews). Brezhnev's government took people's discontent and anger from itself and deflected it unto the enemy of choice, the Jews. Antisemitic propaganda was very common in those years. Such books as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and even Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, were reprinted and widely available at bookstores throughout the Union. Jewish students were banned from more prestigious faculties at Soviet universities under the justification that they will take advantage of the freeeducation there and then emigrate to Israel or elsewhere, and the Motherland's resources would therefore be wasted on them. The Communist Youth, the youth arm of the Party, regularly "exposed suspected Zionists" at schools, universities, in workplaces. It was a witchhunt, nobody was safe. Some high profile Soviet Jews even became Zionist hunters themselves, to save their careers and families and themselves.

The current anti-gay motions are reminding me of the athmosphere 40 years ago. And, also, of a story my father told me, about how he helped hide a Jewish army friend (accused of Zionism and sentenced, in absentia, to 10 years in GULag) at the village and smuggle him to Finland later. I asked him why he went to the trouble, especially with the danger to himself and the family. That was when he told me the stoory of our own people, that, once, when the New Orthodox Church was emerging in Russia, we Old Orthodox, were like the Jews in the 1960s and 70s, and like the gays now. Back then, hundreds of years ago, we were the enemy, to be hunted, persecuted, and murdered...

My father is one of those Old Orthodox who remember such things and think that, as those who experienced it first hand, we must now help any persecuted minority in Russia, rather then help persecute them. Unfortunately, there are plenty of younger conformists who have made peace with the new Church, and go along with their ideology...

You have a good father :)

[MeMyselfAndI]

You have a good father :)

I know. I love and respect him a lot, even if we do not agree on everything.
490
To me and my brothers, he was always the image of what a man must be like...