US Prison Dilemma

[Americano]

US jails and prisons are operating at over-capacity with early release of violent offenders being the norm rather than the exception:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gHn029Sj9CfEhAVrg16Q 5ij1YNtQD95KDPK80 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gHn029Sj9CfEhAVrg16Q5ij1YNtQD95KDPK80)

1. Due to the economic decline and rapidly decreasing tax revenue states and municipalities are facing yet more cutbacks in jail and prison capacity.

2. Four US states now spend more on prisons than higher education, about as reversed as a progressive society can possibly get.

3. The US has the highest per-capita rate of incarceration in the developed world.

Question: What are the short and long-term solutions to this immediate dilemma? Keep in mind our current trend of increased incarceration is no longer affordable, so building more prisons isn't the answer.

[Greendruid]

Legalisation or decriminalisation of marijuana. Maybe your prisons need independent living units and gardens like ours do. Or better yet, return to the prison models that were once productive. Some of the best mules in the world came out of Missouri prisons in the early 20th century. Farming and other means of direct production seemed to work well for prisoners.

I guess at the root of the question though is, what are the most common crimes people are being imprisoned for and how can the US as a society make these offences either less common or prosecution of them more efficient? I don't know the statistics on this because criminology is not my field but I'm pretty sure larceny is up there if not #1. This indicates to me that the disparity in rich and poor is at the root of the problem. Changing that is a tall order for a society. Socialised medicine may actually cure some of this though.

[Michael]

As Greendruid noted above, US marijuana laws are absurd and a major factor in US prison overcrowding issues.

That's about the only 'public policy' angle that I can think of that would be relatively easy to address and have a significant impact.

Other than that, one is up against a 'police-judicial-prison-complex' as entrenched and as profitable as the better known and much larger MIC.

One other aspect that ought to be looked at is the various 'financial' incentives built-into US justice systems that predisposes the system towards this result. For example, many county sheriffs profit from the contract to feed/house prisoners. More prisoners equals more income for the Sheriff. Or the way police departments can 'seize' the physical assets of 'alleged' criminals. The police have a strong vested interest in incarcerating these people to ensure the police get the 'loot'.

I'm sure there are hundreds of such 'small' policies that all conspire to drive up US incarceration rates by giving (indirect) strong material incentives to police and judicial departments to put more people in jail. Most of these of course are outside the domain of Federal jurisdication, though I'm sure plenty of them are federal.

[The Drunk Guy]

How about we start by taking back the power from the World Bank and the Fed? Once we have power and democracy back, we can focus on liberating our society from other establishments.

[Americano]

As Greendruid noted above, US marijuana laws are absurd and a major factor in US prison overcrowding issues.

That's about the only 'public policy' angle that I can think of that would be relatively easy to address and have a significant impact.

Other than that, one is up against a 'police-judicial-prison-complex' as entrenched and as profitable as the better known and much larger MIC.

One other aspect that ought to be looked at is the various 'financial' incentives built-into US justice systems that predisposes the system towards this result. For example, many county sheriffs profit from the contract to feed/house prisoners. More prisoners equals more income for the Sheriff. Or the way police departments can 'seize' the physical assets of 'alleged' criminals. The police have a strong vested interest in incarcerating these people to ensure the police get the 'loot'.

I'm sure there are hundreds of such 'small' policies that all conspire to drive up US incarceration rates by giving (indirect) strong material incentives to police and judicial departments to put more people in jail. Most of these of course are outside the domain of Federal jurisdication, though I'm sure plenty of them are federal.

That pretty much describes the dilemma. Legalization of drugs, not just weed, is so far down the line it's not even a valid political consideration and that's the only issue that would have an impact on incarceration costs.

The general population is so removed from reality it now believes DUI is the 'big criminal fear' without considering that municipal profit center pushes a violent offender out of jail for each incarcerated drunk driver. To point out that jail has never and can not deter a chronic alcoholic from driving is beyond fruitless.

Four states spending more on prisons than higher education doesn't say much for the US.

[Greendruid]

One other aspect that ought to be looked at is the various 'financial' incentives built-into US justice systems that predisposes the system towards this result. For example, many county sheriffs profit from the contract to feed/house prisoners. More prisoners equals more income for the Sheriff. Or the way police departments can 'seize' the physical assets of 'alleged' criminals. The police have a strong vested interest in incarcerating these people to ensure the police get the 'loot'.

Further to Michael's point, both my father-in-law and mother-in-law work at prisons in rural Missouri. In fact, the towns there would likely no longer exist without the prisons. There are many situations like this where incarceration has become an industry of sorts with all kinds of offshoots from construction to counselling to the training and staffing of guards.

[Americano]

Further to Michael's point, both my father-in-law and mother-in-law work at prisons in rural Missouri. In fact, the towns there would likely no longer exist without the prisons. There are many situations like this where incarceration has become an industry of sorts with all kinds of offshoots from construction to counselling to the training and staffing of guards.

The contemporary company town.

I read where Idaho, who has what I've been told by convicts are tough prisons, is recalling state prisoners held in a private prison in another state because they can save money. That would logically mean Idaho's prisons are going to get tougher as they need that money facing reduced tax revenue. Did you look at the pictures in the link?

[dilettante]

Legalization is almost certainly a pipe-dream (pun intended), but it seems like there should be ways to change the system so that punishments don't involve jail time.

An extended parole period with a police tracking device affixed to the parolee's ankle, combined with anti-addiction programs and community service, might do the trick. It would free up prison space, be less psychologically damaging to the convict, and the police could process the tracking data to locate dealers.

Not a perfect solution, but possibly something that could be sold to the people.

[Michael]

The general population is so removed from reality it now believes DUI is the 'big criminal fear' without considering that municipal profit center pushes a violent offender out of jail for each incarcerated drunk driver. To point out that jail has never and can not deter a chronic alcoholic from driving is beyond fruitless.
Yes, this is another angle I hadn't thought of.

When someone says that a drunk driver ought to go to jail, one should ask them if they think a rapist/armed robber ought to be let out to make room? That puts the issue into perspective.

[Greendruid]

The contemporary company town.

I read where Idaho, who has what I've been told by convicts are tough prisons, is recalling state prisoners held in a private prison in another state because they can save money. That would logically mean Idaho's prisons are going to get tougher as they need that money facing reduced tax revenue. Did you look at the pictures in the link?

Yeah, none of that situation surprises me. My wife even worked in one for a while, so does her ex sister-in-law in the same cluster of towns. My wife, who was then a 5'2", 110 lb. woman was in charge of a cell block with about 90 min/med security male offenders. She was never given a weapon of course because this was deemed to be too dangerous if one of the prisoners got ahold of it. She worked 8 or 12 hour shifts at night and most of the time her replacement, whose job it was to go on walkabout and relieve any one that needed to take a pee break, was often asleep in his office. A lot of the tower guards, also asleep. It's no wonder there are fights, internal murders and conflicts inside of the prisons. Who'd want to live like that?

[Americano]

Yeah, none of that situation surprises me. My wife even worked in one for a while, so does her ex sister-in-law in the same cluster of towns. My wife, who was then a 5'2", 110 lb. woman was in charge of a cell block with about 90 min/med security male offenders. She was never given a weapon of course because this was deemed to be too dangerous if one of the prisoners got ahold of it. She worked 8 or 12 hour shifts at night and most of the time her replacement, whose job it was to go on walkabout and relieve any one that needed to take a pee break, was often asleep in his office. A lot of the tower guards, also asleep. It's no wonder there are fights, internal murders and conflicts inside of the prisons. Who'd want to live like that?

Apparently it's not frightening enough to reduce crime to any great degree.

[The Drunk Guy]

Apparently it's not frightening enough to reduce crime to any great degree.Has no one seen Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)?

[Michael]

Apparently it's not frightening enough to reduce crime to any great degree.
I think prisons exist as instruments of mass 'social control' rather than a policy to punish or deter criminals. Those latter goals seem entirely secondary and subservient to the first.

[Michael]

Has no one seen Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)?
No, sorry, never heard of it - I tend to live in a pop-culture-free bubble sometimes...

Has anyone read Foucault's Discipline & Punish? It is a masterpiece on the topic of this thread. :D

[dilettante]

I think prisons exist as instruments of mass 'social control' rather than a policy to punish or deter criminals. Those latter goals seem entirely secondary and subservient to the first.

Isn't attempting to deter criminals "social control"? I'd think any honest advocate of the prison system would proudly admit that they're trying to control society by disincentiving crime.

It's the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of their social control that's the problem.

[Americano]

I think prisons exist as instruments of mass 'social control' rather than a policy to punish or deter criminals. Those latter goals seem entirely secondary and subservient to the first.

Statistically the US is leading in utilizing that instrument of social control. Perhaps it's only the tip of an iceberg? The social costs of a full-on depression to avoid civil unrest in the US will dwarf all other requirements.

[Americano]

Isn't attempting to deter criminals "social control"? I'd think any honest advocate of the prison system would proudly admit that they're trying to control society by disincentiving crime.

It's the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of their social control that's the problem.

The only viable method of prison being a deterrent to violent crime is to make it an experience so dreaded it would collect those unable to cope within a general society prohibiting that offense. We're forcing those individuals back out into general society due to incapacity and zero social net for anyone with a criminal record.

[partofme]

Has no one seen Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)?

I saw the first one but I laughed it off as conspiracy theory nonsense.

[The Drunk Guy]

I saw the first one but I laughed it off as conspiracy theory nonsense.
As do most. I debate with the concept of a select few consciously directing things versus it just happening naturally, but society has come under the control of banks. The funny thing is that "conspiracy theorists" look at the glass half empty while "normal people" see it as half full. That's the only real difference. There's still half a glass.

Addendum is better. It's more extreme in the overall idea, but provides some interesting perspective.

[partofme]

As do most. I debate with the concept of a select few consciously directing things versus it just happening naturally, but society has come under the control of banks. The funny thing is that "conspiracy theorists" look at the glass half empty while "normal people" see it as half full. That's the only real difference. There's still half a glass.

Addendum is better. It's more extreme in the overall idea, but provides some interesting perspective.

The first part of the movie made some good points about the history of religion but then sort of connected it's own dots with many of them. It took a few similarities of Jesus with others and pretended that all of them applied to each example when it was only a few here and there. Then it tried to connect them with astrology which did fit but still it was based on assumption rather than record. That coming from me and I'm certainly not religious. The second part was all 9/11 truther b.s. which has no credibility at all. The final part about the financial system seemed to imply we are all at the mercy of this grand system but as we have seen lately people involved are not geniuses that have the world in the palm of their hand. They fuck up just like anybody else and outcomes for them are also at the mercy of the actions of billions of people. Is the sequal pretty much the same?

[Americano]

California is now looking at releasing up to 57,000 prisoners over the next three years due to overcrowding:

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSTRE5190CB20090210

Essentially CA can't afford to build enough prisons or pay private prisons to house its lawbreakers. CA (and other states) have some serious fiscal and social problems that have become prominent issues since the bubble broke. The streets are going to get tough.

[The Drunk Guy]

The first part of the movie made some good points about the history of religion but then sort of connected it's own dots with many of them. It took a few similarities of Jesus with others and pretended that all of them applied to each example when it was only a few here and there. Then it tried to connect them with astrology which did fit but still it was based on assumption rather than record. That coming from me and I'm certainly not religious. The second part was all 9/11 truther b.s. which has no credibility at all. The final part about the financial system seemed to imply we are all at the mercy of this grand system but as we have seen lately people involved are not geniuses that have the world in the palm of their hand. They fuck up just like anybody else and outcomes for them are also at the mercy of the actions of billions of people. Is the sequal pretty much the same?
The sequel focuses on the banking "conspiracy." It goes into detail about the process of creating money and how money is really a tangible sort of power. The last half or so is about abandoning the monetary system and how that's the only way we could be equal. I mostly prefer it because I like daydreaming about the day I can choose what to do with my self with no restrictions. :D

And it explains the banking "fuck up" and how it plays into the overall growth of banking power.