Where's your thermostat at? How do you heat?

[Greendruid]

Just curious to see where people typically find their thermostat in the winter months. With it being in the dead of winter here in the northern hemisphere my days are a constant reminder of the bold steps our ancestors took with woolly mammoth cloaks and fire-starting rocks to enter what must have been a most inhospitable environment in China and Europe hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Our house temperature fluctuates with the outside due to the fact that we try to heat solely with wood and only have a fireplace insert at the moment. I've woken up some mornings to 9C (48F) in the coldest regions of the floor that the insert is on. Usually though it hovers between 12C (55F) and 19C (67F) when we're diligent about keeping the fire well fueled. We have a medium level of insulation in our 1960s farmhouse and a brand new electric furnace. The breaker to the furnace remains at off though - it's just for insurance purposes because wood heat is not considered a primary heat source here. There is a wood-fired forced air furnace in the basement but it is currently not hooked up to the chimney flue. That's my next project. Eventually we'll have a nice old fashioned cook stove in the kitchen because the insert and the furnace both require electricity to blow the hot air around. A cook stove is just radiant heat.

I'd love a masonry heater but our house is poorly designed to benefit from one. They also range from $10,000 to $30,000 to install depending on supplies and consultation and other adjustments to the structure of the house.

Believe it or not our house (and 60% of Nova Scotian homes) was heated with stove oil which is basically diesel fuel from what I understand. I had a 200 gallon bomb (oil tank) sitting beside my house and the insurance company charges less to insure that than a wood-fired furnace!!! I should point out the province is largely owned by the Irving family (trees, oil, paper, etc.).

[john]

I live in the perfect climate and my house has no heater nor A/C. :lol:

I do have a solar water heater though...

[Michael]

I live in the perfect climate and my house has no heater nor A/C. :lol:

I do have a solar water heater though...
Go away. No one wants you in this discussion. :D

As for myself, my eerie in the sky sits at about 21/22 pretty 7/24/365, though in the summer it can get a bit warm during the day (don't use a/c - just wait for the midnight breeze to cool the place off).

[drgoodtrips]

I'm content as long as it's somewhere in the 60's, Fahrenheit. Usually, I tend toward the high end of that, since other people that come over are made uncomfortable if it's on the lower end.

[Americano]

We heat with wood. An airtight fireplace that takes up to 32" logs with fresh air intake keeps the place at 70-73° (F) during the days, I bank it at night and the temp drops to about 65-66°. We also have an airtight propane fireplace w/fresh air intake in the master bedroom as my wife considers 80+° the ideal temp for watching TV in bed.

Oregon code requires all residential exterior walls be 6" thick with appropriate insulation. I did that and added a 2" sheath of insulation under the exterior siding.

We have a full HVAC system, electric, two actually, one for upstairs and one for downstairs, but never use it in cold weather. Friends who use electric HVAC systems for heat in similar sized residences report monthly heating costs of $4-800.

[Americano]

I live in the perfect climate and my house has no heater nor A/C. :lol:

I do have a solar water heater though...

I lived in Hawaii for five years with no heater or A/C. In most cases only the condos there had HVAC systems.

[Michael]

I'd love a masonry heater but our house is poorly designed to benefit from one. They also range from $10,000 to $30,000 to install depending on supplies and consultation and other adjustments to the structure of the house.
Yes, these things are amazing. It is essentially the same technology the Romans used for central heating 2000 years ago (they were smart enough to build the units right into the walls and floors).

[Greendruid]

We have a small dream of a small log house back in the woods of our place. A masonry heater will be the central starting point of the design of the place. They are indeed amazing things and simple as all hell - force the air flow to meander through an air-tight chamber with a few 180° turns and you have the most efficient source of heat and pollution available today. Why did we try to complicate this in the first place?

Self-sufficient electricity is the second consideration. If I place it next to the brook I might be able to generate some power from that but not enough for our current uses. However, the distance from that brook to the road would necessitate a horse commute to my car to get to work.

We'd keep the main house as a B&B.

[Michael]

We have a small dream of a small log house back in the woods of our place. A masonry heater will be the central starting point of the design of the place. They are indeed amazing things and simple as all hell - force the air flow to meander through an air-tight chamber with a few 180° turns and you have the most efficient source of heat and pollution available today. Why did we try to complicate this in the first place?

Self-sufficient electricity is the second consideration. If I place it next to the brook I might be able to generate some power from that but not enough for our current uses. However, the distance from that brook to the road would necessitate a horse commute to my car to get to work.

We'd keep the main house as a B&B.
How about a combination of waterwheel, solar panel and a windmill? Even if all three are marginal sources, the combination might be sufficient.

[Greendruid]

How about a combination of waterwheel, solar panel and a windmill? Even if all three are marginal sources, the combination might be sufficient.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. It'll look like a regular little gnome's workshop out there!

[john]

If you consider a "windmill", take a look at Vertical Axis Wind Turbines.

[SMadsen]

Remote heating. A more or less constant indoor temp at 20°C. No AC (which is often far more interesting, energywise, than heating).

[Michael]

Remote heating. A more or less constant indoor temp at 20°C. No AC (which is often far more interesting, energywise, than heating).
What is "remote heating" - other than natural sunshine?

[SMadsen]

What is "remote heating" - other than natural sunshine?
Oh sorry, I think it's called "district heating" in English. It's produced in combined heat and power plants and distributed to a wide area. Around 60% of all Danish households get district heating.

[Americano]

Oh sorry, I think it's called "district heating" in English. It's produced in combined heat and power plants and distributed to a wide area. Around 60% of all Danish households get district heating.

Steam? Forced air?

[SMadsen]

Steam? Forced air?
Used to be steam in the old days. Nowadays it's almost exclusively water, 70°C at exit point.

[Dominick]

Oh sorry, I think it's called "district heating" in English. It's produced in combined heat and power plants and distributed to a wide area. Around 60% of all Danish households get district heating.
Damn pinko-commies ;)

[Americano]

Used to be steam in the old days. Nowadays it's almost exclusively water, 70°C at exit point.

When you say exit, it's not a closed loop? Where does the water go?

[SMadsen]

When you say exit, it's not a closed loop? Where does the water go?
I meant at entry point, i.e. the consumer can expect 70° at his heat exchanger. At least, that's what we used to dimension heat systems for.

And yes, it's a closed loop as it goes back to the supplier. Nothing leaves the loop except heat.

[Michael]

I meant at entry point, i.e. the consumer can expect 70° at his heat exchanger. At least, that's what we used to dimension heat systems for.

And yes, it's a closed loop as it goes back to the supplier. Nothing leaves the loop except heat.
So most of Denmark is one giant radiator system? Interesting.

Probably impractical for North America given our 'geography' problems (way too much geography).

[Americano]

I meant at entry point, i.e. the consumer can expect 70° at his heat exchanger. At least, that's what we used to dimension heat systems for.

And yes, it's a closed loop as it goes back to the supplier. Nothing leaves the loop except heat.

Sounds like a great system for users. May I inquire as to monthly cost?

[Americano]

So most of Denmark is one giant radiator system? Interesting.

Probably impractical for North America given our 'geography' problems (way too much geography).

In the US electricity, oil and natural gas deliveries to point of consumption are utilized due to that geography and infrastructure costs. In densely populated cities it would make good sense, but we're back to the US habit of skimping on infrastructure for long-term purposes to achieve short-term gain.

[SMadsen]

Sounds like a great system for users. May I inquire as to monthly cost?
You certainly may but it depends on various things, - square feet, insulation, the condition of your system etc. It also varies from area to area.

But I can give you a cost per MWh. In Copenhagen, one MWh district heating currently costs $98 including VAT and all other taxes (with todays exchange rate).

[SMadsen]

So most of Denmark is one giant radiator system? Interesting.

Probably impractical for North America given our 'geography' problems (way too much geography).
Heh

No no, not one system. We have as many power plants as there are cities, bouroughs, districts, municipalities or whatever any singular coverage may be based upon.

Of course you can do it in North America (and USA already does in at least one place if judging from the steam columns that rise from every street corner in NYC). But you're right that it has to be worth while. Desolate places must use other heating forms.

[Americano]

You certainly may but it depends on various things, - square feet, insulation, the condition of your system etc. It also varies from area to area.

But I can give you a cost per MWh. In Copenhagen, one MWh district heating currently costs $98 including VAT and all other taxes (with todays exchange rate).


I pay $86/MWh in Oregon for electricity, which has to be utilized by an HVAC system to produce heat. That's a low rate in the US, New York City being $176/MWh. They then have the cost of converting water to steam. The highest electricity cost per MWh in the continental US is Connecticut at $201/MWh (10-08). As the US buys a great deal of electricity from Canada, I'd think their costs would be far lower.

Makes me feel even better about having the capability to heat with wood.

[SMadsen]

I pay $86/MWh in Oregon for electricity, which has to be utilized by an HVAC system to produce heat. That's a low rate in the US, New York City being $176/MWh. They then have the cost of converting water to steam. The highest electricity cost per MWh in the continental US is Connecticut at $201/MWh (10-08). As the US buys a great deal of electricity from Canada, I'd think their costs would be far lower.

Makes me feel even better about having the capability to heat with wood.
Interesting to hear about your prices.

For comparison, we pay $392 per MWh electricity in Copenhagen (it's slightly cheaper elsewhere). So electrical heating (and cooling) is the absolutely last resort in these parts of the wood :)

I can also add that only $68 out of the $98 for a MWh district heat is the raw price from the plant. The rest is tax (~ 30%). Similarly, only $184 out of the $392 per MWh electricity is the raw production and distribution price. The rest, 53%, is tax.

Since district heat is waste energy from electricity productions, which again for large parts are driven by refuse disposal, the tax calculations regarding district heat get extra interesting because we've already paid taxes through electricity and garbage disposal. But that's a side note :)

[Michael]

Toronto Hydro rate is $53/MWh for the first 600 kilowatt-hours used in a month, $62/MWh for additional usage. That's Canadian dollars.

That's about $45 and $53 in USD (at current exchange rates). :)

These are the retail-residential rates. There would be 5% GST (sales tax) on that.

This is only the electricity price - no one in Canada uses electricity for heating! :eek: We all use natural gas for that.

Natural Gas (retail-residential rate) is about $0.33 per m3 Cdn which is about $0.28 USD per m3 (cubic meter)

[SMadsen]

Toronto Hydro rate is $53/MWh for the first 600 kilowatt-hours used in a month, $62/MWh for additional usage. That's Canadian dollars.

That's about $45 and $53 in USD (at current exchange rates). :)

These are the retail-residential rates. There would be 5% GST (sales tax) on that.

This is only the electricity price - no one in Canada uses electricity for heating! :eek: We all use natural gas for that.

Natural Gas (retail-residential rate) is about $0.33 per m3 Cdn which is about $0.28 USD per m3 (cubic meter)
The energy of a cubic meter of natural gas is 35-40 MJ, depending on utilization value. If we say 37.5 MJ it corresponds to approx. 0.0104 MWh/m3, meaning that we'll have to burn 96.15 m3 of natural gas to get the energy of one MWh. That's $0.28 * 96.15 m3 = $26.90 USD per MWh? Wow, that's mighty cheap.

I know you live in a place where heating is absolutely essential but I wonder if the low price alone won't trigger an excessive use of energy? Or maybe my calculations are off (wouldn't be the first time).

I also wonder how you manage to sell electricity to your southern neighbor for the price that Americano pays :)

[drgoodtrips]

This sounds like a bargain. I use natural gas for heat, and I typically pay $150-$200 per month for my gas bill during the winter.

Of course, I pay nothing during the summer, but then my electric bill spikes to about that per month for air conditioning. The only "cheap" months are April/May and October. :ummm:

[Greendruid]

This is only the electricity price - no one in Canada uses electricity for heating! :eek: We all use natural gas for that.

I'm sure you were joking when you wrote this :rolleyes: It has always baffled me that Nova Scotia is just now getting a natural gas pipeline and that's only in the city of Halifax old city limits. No where else has it available for home heating or ranges. What is weird about this is that NS is a net natural gas producer and seller and may have some of the country's second biggest reserves off shore. The pipeline that runs to the mainland goes right past us under the ocean just off the coast of Fortress of Louisbourg. Unreal.

[Americano]

The energy of a cubic meter of natural gas is 35-40 MJ, depending on utilization value. If we say 37.5 MJ it corresponds to approx. 0.0104 MWh/m3, meaning that we'll have to burn 96.15 m3 of natural gas to get the energy of one MWh. That's $0.28 * 96.15 m3 = $26.90 USD per MWh? Wow, that's mighty cheap.

I know you live in a place where heating is absolutely essential but I wonder if the low price alone won't trigger an excessive use of energy? Or maybe my calculations are off (wouldn't be the first time).

I also wonder how you manage to sell electricity to your southern neighbor for the price that Americano pays :)


I quoted US residential rates. Different margin requirements would be dictated by the US distributor of electrical power.

Oregon
Residential - $86/MWh
Commercial - $76/MWh
Industrial - $49/MWh

[Michael]

The energy of a cubic meter of natural gas is 35-40 MJ, depending on utilization value. If we say 37.5 MJ it corresponds to approx. 0.0104 MWh/m3, meaning that we'll have to burn 96.15 m3 of natural gas to get the energy of one MWh. That's $0.28 * 96.15 m3 = $26.90 USD per MWh? Wow, that's mighty cheap.

I know you live in a place where heating is absolutely essential but I wonder if the low price alone won't trigger an excessive use of energy? Or maybe my calculations are off (wouldn't be the first time).

I also wonder how you manage to sell electricity to your southern neighbor for the price that Americano pays :)

Yes, I've long known that Canada has unusually low rates for electricity, natural gas and water (water is almost free or flat-rate cheap).

Canada (along with Russia) does have largest supplies of natural gas in the world and as for electricity, Canada also has a comparatively high rate of hydro-electricity as well (Niagara Falls, Churchill Falls & James Bay for example - the latter being the largest hydroelectric project in the world). The point being that hydroelectric power is the cheapest known power source.

Canada is also pretty big on electricity from nukes as well. Since no one ever factors in the cost of decommissioning them, they are also a comparatively cheap source of electrical power.

And yes, Canadians are notorious energy gluttons - probably due to the cheap cost.

As for the difference in price from Canadian retail rates to US exported rates, suffice it to say there are probably a couple of US middle-men in the exchange, each taking a profit-cut... plus distribution costs. And don't forget that the price is that which the customer is willing to pay. :D Us Canadians gotta make a living you know... ;)

[drgoodtrips]

One of the things that I'm working on during the course of "automating" my home, is to enable "smart appliance management" - having things run during off peak electricity hours. Apparently, the power in the US grid is generated through some combination of nuclear and other energies. Nuclear provides a base level, and then peaks are addressed with other, much more wasteful technologies, like burning oil, for instance.

A buddy of mine is getting into green technology as his career path, and we were chatting about some ideas. Apparently, it costs far too much to ramp up any of the "base" generation to accommodate spikes during peak usage hours (daytime hours). But, if usage were billed according to peak/non-peak hours, a natural incentive would be provided to minimize spikes. As such, I could offer a system that would "check" the power grid to see usage/billing status and hold off things like laundry, dishes, etc, until it was non-peak.

[SMadsen]

I quoted US residential rates. Different margin requirements would be dictated by the US distributor of electrical power.

Oregon
Residential - $86/MWh
Commercial - $76/MWh
Industrial - $49/MWh
Yes, of course. It's actually quite cheap, distribution costs and all. It was merely a crack at the pretty steep price you mentioned for CT.

I guess it also depends on who owns the distribution lines. For example, in my place we can buy electricity from whomever we want but there's only one who sits on the power lines so, all in all, the price is pretty much the same, regardless of supplier.

[Greendruid]

But, if usage were billed according to peak/non-peak hours, a natural incentive would be provided to minimize spikes. As such, I could offer a system that would "check" the power grid to see usage/billing status and hold off things like laundry, dishes, etc, until it was non-peak.

They actually make a device for monitoring this now in your own home. Hooks up to the outside of your electrical meter and gives a constant real-time readout of your home's energy consumption with the goal to make people aware of when and how they use energy. The other way is to use your brain and check how much power an appliance or device sucks when you use it :p

[drgoodtrips]

They actually make a device for monitoring this now in your own home. Hooks up to the outside of your electrical meter and gives a constant real-time readout of your home's energy consumption with the goal to make people aware of when and how they use energy. The other way is to use your brain and check how much power an appliance or device sucks when you use it :p

I think that for a lot of people, it only matters when you start realizing appreciable savings. As it stands here now, I get charged the same rate regardless of time of day, so I have no real, tangible incentive to use appliances in smart fashion. Sure, if I did and so did everyone else, our collective bills might decrease a bit, but that's not realistic.

From where I'm standing (and where I could make money), it will only matter if the government mandates charging a variable rate.

[Greendruid]

I think that for a lot of people, it only matters when you start realizing appreciable savings. As it stands here now, I get charged the same rate regardless of time of day, so I have no real, tangible incentive to use appliances in smart fashion. Sure, if I did and so did everyone else, our collective bills might decrease a bit, but that's not realistic.

From where I'm standing (and where I could make money), it will only matter if the government mandates charging a variable rate.

They used to do that when I was a kid - at least I always remember my mom running the washer and dryer late at night in the winter because of this. I'm not sure about now though. I know that when I bought my furnace the retailer was trying to sell me one of the units that heats up at night and releases the heat over the course of the day and supposedly this was a cheaper way to consume electricity. Not sure if that's accurate here now though. There may be an over-arching Canadian law on this - anyone know?

[drgoodtrips]

Fluid dynamics and such isn't really my specialty, but the heating at night and cooling during the day might not be a pure product of power rates. For instance, in the summer without the AC, my place will be tolerable through the morning and most of the day, and really start to get hot at night after the sun sets.

I suspect that the retailer might have been prodding you toward efficiency more than conscientious timing for the power grid.

But, I could be wrong...

[Michael]

For instance, in the summer without the AC, my place will be tolerable through the morning and most of the day, and really start to get hot at night after the sun sets.
You need altitude! That's the precise opposite of my place. It heats up slowly during the day when the sun beats down (peaks about about 6pm), but cools off in the evenings with the night breezes at midnight (I'm on a corner unit, so that REALLY helps with the internal cross-breeze).