Headscarves

[MeMyselfAndI]

I know that in Europe, countries are actually banning women from wearing head scarves. We already talked about France, but I believe Holland is also doing it, and a few municipal governments in Spain and Italy. Belgium too, I think, though am not sure. I understand this is aimed at Muslim women particularly.

But for me, having grown up surrounded by women in headscarves, and now with my wife often wearing a hijab, that is ridiculous.

First, in Orthodox Christianity, or at least in its traditional, fundamental version that Old Orthodox apply today, girls should and married women mustcover their hair when they go out.
http://www.mnogodetok.ru/download/file.php?id=7326&mode=view
http://cs4335.vkontakte.ru/u5539248/75498202/x_b44ddfd3.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269066_10150313292736558_721246557_9656412_350914_ n.jpg
http://cs4283.vkontakte.ru/u5539248/75498202/x_875cab9b.jpg

And in Islam too, of course, hijab is important
http://prokazan.ru/sites/default/files/imagecache/teaser_510_280/images/Zhienshchina_molitsia_musulmanka_1.JPGhttp://www.ansar.ru/uploads/imagesb/2010/12/eda5e586.jpg

Dinara Sadretdinova, hijab-wearing Tatar hostess of Russian TV show 'Musulmane' ('Muslims')
http://www.mk.ru/upload/iblock_mk/475/da/93/c5/DETAIL_PICTURE_601601.jpg
"The headscarf makes me feel more feminine, helps me embrace myself, as a woman, and as a Muslim woman, as a wife, and a mother."
http://www.mk.ru/social/interview/2011/06/29/601601-dinara-sadretdinova-nadev-na-golovu-platok-ya-stala-bolee-zhenstvennoy.html

Frankly, while I see the excesses and abuses in both religions, as I also see the good sides of them, I also see the wisdom in my wife's words on the French law (and on a debate on this topic on a Russian mothers' forum online). "Who is Sarcosy, who is modern France, which has existed for maybe 200 years, to try to undermine religious rules that were here for one or two thousand years?" and "Why do some men in Europe think they know better what women should and should not wear?" I must say, I agree whole-heartedly. Karina certainly looks amazing in her hijab. And when I go back to my ancestral village, Old Orthodox women and girls in their scarves is among the first sight I get and it is a wonderful one indeed. They now make them in so many colors, shapes, sizes. Some have actually a depiction of Christ on them... :lol:

I think France and other European states taht pass these bigoted laws do themselves a real disservice. I don't, by the way, think a woman should be forced to wear some headscarf, whatever faith she is. But if she chooses to, respect it! Sarcosy is just a racist little Hungarian prick, IMHO

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Name one country that has banned the headscarf.

Sarkozy has banned the burqa, which has nothing to do with Islam, only Arab.

And I say, well done, Sarkozy. It's time we started protecting our own cultures, in the same way that Arab countries protect their cultures.

When Arab countries open gay clubs, then we can allow the burqa.

And if banning the burqa does the country a disservice, how exactly does it do the country a disservice?

The headscarf is only banned in French schools, where crucifixes are also banned.

Who is modern France??? Modern France is a country of 57 million people, most of whom have been there for about 2000 years, and have developed, instead of remaining in the dark ages.

[MeMyselfAndI]

My mistake about scarves and veils. My point stands though. There are many in Europe including such as Geert Wilders whould ban anything Islamic. Pathetic ignorant bigots. Here we have them too, but leaders don't listen to them exept about the gays. Nobody likes them, poor people. But I am moving off. As for 'defending our culture', how is European culture threatened? By some woman wearing a scarf? Ridiculuos. I will tell you the greatest threat to Europe - itself. That which you cheer as 'progress': the legalising and spread of narcotics and prostitution, loss of religious identity and resulting loosening of social norms, particularly among youth. That is where the trouble is, my friend.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

My mistake about scarves and veils. My point stands though. There are many in Europe including such as Geert Wilders whould ban anything Islamic. Pathetic ignorant bigots. Here we have them too, but leaders don't listen to them exept about the gays. Nobody likes them, poor people. But I am moving off. As for 'defending our culture', how is European culture threatened? By some woman wearing a scarf? Ridiculuos. I will tell you the greatest threat to Europe - itself. That which you cheer as 'progress': the legalising and spread of narcotics and prostitution, loss of religious identity and resulting loosening of social norms, particularly among youth. That is where the trouble is, my friend.

Look at Scandinavia. One of the 1st places in Europe to legalise gay marriage, and one of the least religious places in the world (believe me). Believe me, I'd rather live there than among thuggish people who think driving fast is more important than safe roads.

And if you go to Norway, you'll see how very carefully people drive. Scandinavians are NOT tolerant of stupidity on the roads.

I can assure you Scandinavia most people are anti-racist, and anti-homophobia.

The homophobes in Russian villages just hate anyone who isn't exactly like them, which is why you choose not to live there.

This is one of the most honest, considerate places you could live.

[Donkey]

When Arab countries open gay clubs, then we can allow the burqa.


It's like playing fucking logical whack-a-mole with you.

[Non Sequitur]

Sarkozy has banned the burqa, which has nothing to do with Islam, only Arab.

Except for the fact that there are a lot of conservative Muslims out there who do happen to think it has a lot to do with Islam. Considering you're not Muslim, I will defer to them.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Look at Scandinavia. One of the 1st places in Europe to legalise gay marriage, and one of the least religious places in the world (believe me). Believe me, I'd rather live there than among thuggish people who think driving fast is more important than safe roads.

And if you go to Norway, you'll see how very carefully people drive. Scandinavians are NOT tolerant of stupidity on the roads.

I can assure you Scandinavia most people are anti-racist, and anti-homophobia.

The homophobes in Russian villages just hate anyone who isn't exactly like them, which is why you choose not to live there.

This is one of the most honest, considerate places you could live.

I don't claim to know all Scandinavians. However, having spent much time in our neighbor Karelia, hunting with my father and brothers, I've met plenty of Finns from across the border. They are just like us. They love to drink, love vodka, can outdrink some Russians, I'd say lol They are fun when drunk, sing, dance, laugh. Good people, good company :lol:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

MeMyselfandI, Finns are not Scandinavian, and both they and the Scandinavians get irritated when they are referred to as such.

There is not a problem between Scandinavians and Finns, but both sets of people find people's ignorance on this matter, irritating.

Except for the fact that there are a lot of conservative Muslims out there who do happen to think it has a lot to do with Islam. Considering you're not Muslim, I will defer to them.
Well, it was an Imam who made me aware of the fact that it isn't Islamic at all. Bosnians and Azerbadzanians have been Islamic for many many centuries, but none of them would ever dream of wearing a burqa.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Except for the fact that there are a lot of conservative Muslims out there who do happen to think it has a lot to do with Islam. Considering you're not Muslim, I will defer to them.

I'll second that. In Islam and Orthodoxy too the headscarf stands for feminine modesty, maturity, and purity
http://stat11.privet.ru/lr/0828bff0cc868f873372ba5be482912f
http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/vlasov_v.v/_answers/i-1110.jpghttp://www.ansar.ru/uploads/imagesb/2010/04/f19dbb14.jpg

But here in Russia it is a divisive question to be sure. Here is a poll from recent 'Open Studio' talk show episode on this issue
http://www.islamnews.ru/uploads/news/1302779707/global/news-XqeT62pCrd.jpg
'Wearing of religious dress is:
28.8% Tradition
40.4% Threat to society
30.8% Unnecesary intrusion (into people's private lives, as in, none of your business why I wear a headscarf, I just like to, and that is my right)'

Recently, President Medvedev officially reaffirmed the 'inclusive school' principle, where religious students of whatever denomination can wear their traditional dress if they so choose
http://black.pr-online.ru/blog/hidjab.jpg
Medvedev, unlike Sarcosy, understands that religion is a big part of life for many people, especially in this country, and this must be respected.

Then again, Russia, unlike France, has lived through a dark period in its history, Leninist Communism, when religious people and clergy were slughtered and repressed, churches, mosques, synagogues, and Buddhist temples desecrated and destroyed. Medvedev himself, he says, donated to the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour rebuilding project in the 90s. He understands how faith is important to our peoples.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

MeMyselfandI, Non-sequitor is not talking about headscarves, but about the BURQA!!!!!!!

[MeMyselfAndI]

MeMyselfandI, Finns are not Scandinavian, and both they and the Scandinavians get irritated when they are referred to as such.

There is not a problem between Scandinavians and Finns, but both sets of people find people's ignorance on this matter, irritating.


Well, it was an Imam who made me aware of the fact that it isn't Islamic at all. Bosnians and Azerbadzanians have been Islamic for many many centuries, but none of them would ever dream of wearing a burqa.

Fair enough about Finns.

Azer girls I know do wear scarves though.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Yes, they wear scarves, but thas nothing to do with it. We're talking about the burqa.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Yes, they wear scarves, but thas nothing to do with it. We're talking about the burqa.

See previous page.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

See previous page.
I've seen it, and I can only repeat that Non-Sequitor and I were talking about the burka. Only you are talking about head-scarves.

[MeMyselfAndI]

As for defending culture, I will answer to you as I answer to Moscow nationalists who dislike that people from other parts of Russia and former SU come here to live. Europe, once, maybe 100 years ago, colonised and occupied much of the world. They did not come and force their culture on you. You came (particularly you British, no offense) and forced your ways and practices on them. You, with your Empires and Dominions and Popes and Crusades. You are upset that a few French Muslim women do not conform to your secular social standards? How must Native Americans feel?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

As for defending culture, I will answer to you as I answer to Moscow nationalists who dislike that people from other parts of Russia and former SU come here to live. Europe, once, maybe 100 years ago, colonised and occupied much of the world. They did not come and force their culture on you. You came (particularly you British, no offense) and forced your ways and practices on them. You, with your Empires and Dominions and Popes and Crusades. You are upset that a few French Muslim women do not conform to your secular social standards? How must Native Americans feel?
The Russians colonised Poland and other countries, and still celebrate it every 9th of May. Fortunately, the Baltic states and Central European ones are now in the EU and you have to make do with Belarus:rofl:(I shouldn't laugh, because the Belarussians aren't laughing). At least Britain has stopped colonising.

But what you are saying has nothing to do with this debate. This debate is about things that people wear.

[MeMyselfAndI]

The Russians colonised Poland and other countries, and still celebrate it every 9th of May. Fortunately, the Baltic states and Central European ones are now in the EU and you have to make do with Belarus:rofl:(I shouldn't laugh, because the Belarussians aren't laughing).

But what you are saying has nothing to do with this debate. This debate is about things that people wear.

Yes. I know. We colonised too. Siberia, Caucasus, etc. I don't deny that. But we at least now let them all live as they wish. Buryats want to dress in Mongol ethnic dress, want to shoot arrows and pray in Buddhist temples? They can do that. Chukchi want to worship fire and hunt whales with spears? They can do that. And so on.

We don't dictate to people how to live, how to dress. Russia is actually MORE tolerant then Europe this way...

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Yes. I know. We colonised too. Siberia, Caucasus, etc. I don't deny that. But we at least now let them all live as they wish. Buryats want to dress in Mongol ethnic dress, want to shoot arrows and pray in Buddhist temples? They can do that. Chukchi want to worship fire and hunt whales with spears? They can do that. And so on.

We don't dictate to people how to live, how to dress. Russia is actually MORE tolerant then Europe this way...
Wait til people start wanting to wear the Burqa in Russia. (this is like the Balaclava, you can't recognise the person wearing it).

When burqa-wearers start living in Russia. When your children start having kindergarten teachers wearing the BURQA, then you can start having an opinion. At the moment, this has nothing to do with Russia.

And please, get out of Belarus, like the British got out of India. Get out of Kazakhstan, like the British got out of India.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Wait til people start wanting to wear the Burqa in Russia. (this is like the Balaclava, you can't recognise the person wearing it).

When burqa-wearers start living in Russia. When your children start having kindergarten teachers wearing the BURQA, then you can start having an opinion. At the moment, this has nothing to do with Russia.

And please, get out of Belarus, like the British got out of India. Get out of Kazakhstan, like the British got out of India.

Belarus and Kazakhstan are independent countries that choose to associate with Russia, as British Commonwealth chooses with Britain.

As for burqa, some women in Chechnya and those places do wear them. To each his own, I say.

I tell you, I will not agree with you on this, we are from two very different backgrounds. My people have been persecutted, murdered, raped, many driven out of their country, for their faith. My great-great-grandfather died for his faith. Even if I am not as devout as most of my people, I understand, value, and respect that. And I understand others who value their religion.

You, on the other hand, dismiss religion as silliness, you put gay rights above those of religious people... And you are particularly set against Muslims. No offense but I did notice that. In fact, you are set against all people who take their religion seriously and actually practice it.

Sure, there are bad things, including homophobia. But repression does not solve that.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

If I was so anti-Muslim, why am I doing all this to show you that the burqa is nothing to do with Islam???

I'm absolutely not against religion, provided they, AT LEAST, tolerate gays.

And gays must tolerate Muslims and Christians.

As long as people tolerate each other, I like them.

The Russians used to shoot people JUST for being gay?
Aren't you ashamed of that?

And if you didn't post so much about homosexuality, I wouldn't keep repeating my views.

[MeMyselfAndI]

If I was so anti-Muslim, why am I doing all this to show you that the burqa is nothing to do with Islam???

I'm absolutely not against religion, provided they, AT LEAST, tolerate gays.

And gays must tolerate Muslims and Christians.

As long as people tolerate each other, I like them.

The Russians used to shoot people JUST for being gay?
Aren't you ashamed of that?

And if you didn't post so much about homosexuality, I wouldn't keep repeating my views.

Yes. And I don't post so much. I post news as they come out.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

MeMyselfandI, only a week or 2 ago, you posted some very OLD story, about some homophobia or other, and you said 'it's an old story, but still true'
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47898#post47898
By the way, something I found recently, though the article itself is a year old now, but no less true.

"Caucasian diasporas are shocked, after being contacted by an organization representing gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transvestites who wanted to form a common front against bigotry in Russian society.

«Do not mistake xenophobia for 'homophobia'! – shouts head of «Youth Assembly Single Caucasus» Alik Mikaelian – We must not allow, covering it up with a pretty word «tolerance», the propaganda of 'gay-culture' in our society!» "

http://161.ru/news/296828.html (http://161.ru/news/296828.html)

:rofl:I don't know what those homosexuals were thinking... Obviously the Caucasians won't defend them, they are even more conservative than we Slavs are on these issues...

So don't tell me you post news as it comes out.

[Michael]

I know that in Europe, countries are actually banning women from wearing head scarves. We already talked about France, but I believe Holland is also doing it, and a few municipal governments in Spain and Italy. Belgium too, I think, though am not sure. I understand this is aimed at Muslim women particularly.

But for me, having grown up surrounded by women in headscarves, and now with my wife often wearing a hijab, that is ridiculous.

Well, if we are going to talk about ridiculous, I must ask, where in Christian scriptures is it stated that women ought to have their heads covered?

[MeMyselfAndI]

MeMyselfandI, only a week or 2 ago, you posted some very OLD story, about some homophobia or other, and you said 'it's an old story, but still true'
http://www.discussionworldforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47898#post47898


So don't tell me you post news as it comes out.

Well, it was relevant to the topic at hand.

Well, if we are going to talk about ridiculous, I must ask, where in Christian scriptures is it stated that women ought to have their heads covered?

In ORTHODOX Christianity, yes, it does. At least, so I was taught in school.

Though I believe it is more of a cultural element than a religious one, hence it is mostly worn by women in traditionalist societies (Cossack, Old Orthodox). But all Orthodox women cover their heads when in church, just as men on the other hand have to bare their heads.

[Michael]

In ORTHODOX Christianity, yes, it does. At least, so I was taught in school.
Please cite the appropriate scripture.

I am quite interested in this precise doctrinal issue. :)

Though I believe it is more of a cultural element than a religious one, hence it is mostly worn by women in traditionalist societies (Cossack, Old Orthodox). But all Orthodox women cover their heads when in church, just as men on the other hand have to bare their heads.
Sounds EXACTLY like the same status as headscarves and burqas in Islamic countries. :shrug:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, it was relevant to the topic at hand.


Rubbish. The topic at hand was the legalization of gay marriage in New York.

In your mind, if a topic has the word 'gay' in the title, then any story about gays is relevant to that topic. There was nothing about marriage in your topic.

You just didn't like there to be a good news story about gays, without neutralising it, and the only article you could find, was a year-old one. Never tell me you 'post news as it comes'.
:rofl:

[The Drunk Girl]

If I was so anti-Muslim, why am I doing all this to show you that the burqa is nothing to do with Islam???

I'm absolutely not against religion, provided they, AT LEAST, tolerate gays.

And gays must tolerate Muslims and Christians.

As long as people tolerate each other, I like them.

The Russians used to shoot people JUST for being gay?
Aren't you ashamed of that?

And if you didn't post so much about homosexuality, I wouldn't keep repeating my views.

AND...today's black people deserve reparations :rolleyes:

[The Drunk Girl]

Rubbish. The topic at hand was the legalization of gay marriage in New York.

In your mind, if a topic has the word 'gay' in the title, then any story about gays is relevant to that topic. There was nothing about marriage in your topic.

You just didn't like there to be a good news story about gays, without neutralising it, and the only article you could find, was a year-old one. Never tell me you 'post news as it comes'.
:rofl:

And your numerous quotes about allowing gay clubs is relevant to the topic of burqas?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

AND...today's black people deserve reparations :rolleyes:
Yes, they do, but that's a different topic.
Try to read properly what is being discussed.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Rubbish. The topic at hand was the legalization of gay marriage in New York.

In your mind, if a topic has the word 'gay' in the title, then any story about gays is relevant to that topic. There was nothing about marriage in your topic.

You just didn't like there to be a good news story about gays, without neutralising it, and the only article you could find, was a year-old one. Never tell me you 'post news as it comes'.
:rofl:

I was just comparing the situation for gays in USA/West to here in Russia. And showing how very different it is.

[Michael]

Yes, they do, but that's a different topic.
Try to read properly what is being discussed.

The topic here is Headscarves. Please stick to this topic in this thread.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

The topic here is Headscarves. Please stick to this topic in this thread.
Topics evolve, as the Women's world cup toic evolved to the Wittan :lol::lol::lol:

But suddenly out of the blue to be asked about something totally irrelevant, is rather bizarre, I think.

[The Drunk Girl]

Yes, they do, but that's a different topic.
Try to read properly what is being discussed.

No need to patronize. I'm fully aware of what is being discussed. You can't throw around something that Russians used to do and ask MMSAI if he is ashamed.

If I walked around thinking the world owed me something I would never make it in life. The current generations of people all over the world shouldn't be held responsible for things of the past.

Also, you should not point fingers at reading properly. You are quite guilty yourself for bringing other issues/problems into threads, yet when one does the same you want to call them out. Tisk-tisk

[The Drunk Girl]

The topic here is Headscarves. Please stick to this topic in this thread.

No thread has ever truly stuck to the original topic after awhile has it? :shrug:

[Michael]

Topics evolve, as the Women's world cup toic evolved to the Wittan :lol::lol::lol:

But suddenly out of the blue to be asked about something totally irrelevant, is rather bizarre, I think.

I like to see serious discussion threads remain on topic. Sports/chat/entertainment topics are rather different and I hold lower standards for them.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

No need to patronize. I'm fully aware of what is being discussed. You can't throw around something that Russians used to do and ask MMSAI if he is ashamed.

If I walked around thinking the world owed me something I would never make it in life. The current generations of people all over the world shouldn't be held responsible for things of the past.

Also, you should not point fingers at reading properly. You are quite guilty yourself for bringing other issues/problems into threads, yet when one does the same you want to call them out. Tisk-tisk
He started by going on about what the British did!!! And try to see how relevant that actually was.

It's getting a bit ridiculous how obviously biased you are in his favour against me. Try to go for the ball, rather than the man.;)

[MeMyselfAndI]

Please cite the appropriate scripture.

I am quite interested in this precise doctrinal issue. :)


Paul [we know him as Pavel] the Apostle had said 'a wife should cover herself', but I don't remember the exact verse. But, yes, we were taught that married women must wear headscarves.

Sounds EXACTLY like the same status as headscarves and burqas in Islamic countries. :shrug:

Indeed.

[Michael]

Again, please stick to the topic of headscarves.

I'm going to delete any post after this one that isn't about the thread topic.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Again, please stick to the topic of headscarves.

I'm going to delete any post after this one that isn't about the thread topic.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[MeMyselfAndI]

He started by going on about what the British did!!! And try to see how relevant that actually was.

It's getting a bit ridiculous how obviously biased you are in his favour against me. Try to go for the ball, rather than the man.;)

I certainly don't mind when a beatiful woman (from what I saw on her avat picture) is biased in my favor :) No offense, Drunk Guy. Just innocent compliment, observation, if you will. You are a lucky man.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Again, please stick to the topic of headscarves.

I'm going to delete any post after this one that isn't about the thread topic.

Now you sound like Putin :lol:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Headscarves can be jolly handy in winter, when it's cold.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Headscarves can be jolly handy in winter, when it's cold.

Absolutely. When I was little I used to wrap myself in my grandmother's wool shal in the cold winter months. Yes, boys did and still do it too, its nice, keeps all the heat in.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well a headscarf is better than one those ridiculous Kossack hats without ear flaps.

[Donkey]

Well a headscarf is better than one those ridiculous Kossack hats without ear flaps.

Depends entirely on the material.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, as you see, the material for the ears is non-existant with a Cossack hat, which makes it worse than a headscarf.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Well a headscarf is better than one those ridiculous Kossack hats without ear flaps.

I agree.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I certainly don't mind when a beatiful woman (from what I saw on her avat picture) is biased in my favor :) No offense, Drunk Guy. Just innocent compliment, observation, if you will. You are a lucky man.
MeMyselfandI, Women in the west don't fall for that kind of bull. ;)
You might just as well, don a headscarf and dance a polka.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I'm putting on my night-headscarf, and going to bed. Good night :)

[NickKIELCEPoland]

As for defending culture, I will answer to you as I answer to Moscow nationalists who dislike that people from other parts of Russia and former SU come here to live. Europe, once, maybe 100 years ago, colonised and occupied much of the world. They did not come and force their culture on you. You came (particularly you British, no offense) and forced your ways and practices on them. You, with your Empires and Dominions and Popes and Crusades. You are upset that a few French Muslim women do not conform to your secular social standards? How must Native Americans feel?
Interesting that you managed to get that word sneaked in (Britain has far more Protestants than Catholics).

Are you anti-Catholic???

I think Catholicism is very similar to Islam in history, and views.

My headscarf almost fell off, I was so amazed when I saw that word. ;)

[MeMyselfAndI]

Interesting that you managed to get that word sneaked in (Britain has far more Protestants than Catholics).

Are you anti-Catholic???

I think Catholicism is very similar to Islam in history, and views.

My headscarf almost fell off, I was so amazed when I saw that word. ;)

There was a time when all of Europe was Catholic, when Popes had more power than Kings, when they had huge armies of Crusaders that served them and fought and died for them.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Are you anti-Catholic?

[MeMyselfAndI]

Are you anti-Catholic?

No. The only religion I don't like is Scientology. Only because I don't believe a Hollywood actor should be seen as a prophet. Call me a bigot :)

[Michael]

There was a time when all of Europe was Catholic, when Popes had more power than Kings, when they had huge armies of Crusaders that served them and fought and died for them.

With all due respect, as a lifelong student of medieval history, I must disagree.

That picture of the Catholic church is just propaganda. At no time in history did Popes ever have more power than kings and they NEVER controlled any Crusader armies at all.

For example, the "investiture controversy" of the 11th/12th century defacto recognized the primacy of kings and the essential political weakness of the Popes. It was all downhill for the Papacy politically after that.

[The Drunk Guy]

No. The only religion I don't like is Scientology. Only because I don't believe a Hollywood actor should be seen as a prophet. Call me a bigot :)

The prophet was a science fiction author that duped Hollywood actors.

Also, to be safe, headscarve.

[Greendruid]

Absolutely. When I was little I used to wrap myself in my grandmother's wool shal in the cold winter months. Yes, boys did and still do it too, its nice, keeps all the heat in.

My mom, of Ukranian and Polish descent, always called those a babushka. Is that a different item of clothing or a different language?

[MeMyselfAndI]

My mom, of Ukranian and Polish descent, always called those a babushka. Is that a different item of clothing or a different language?

Babushkas are old women (babushka means 'grandmother' in Russian) who all wear those, in all communities here, religiously conservative or not. There is a musical group from Udmurtia called Buranovskie Babushki
http://michaesh.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/imgp0634.jpg
because they are babushki from a village called Buranovo :) I think i already wrote about that here. They almost went to Eurovision, took second place in a Russia-wide contest. They've been singing for 40 years now, all of them, together, from the early 70s to now. Apparently they prefer Beatles songs, which the eldest grandson of one (a linguistics student) translates for them, and they perform them in both Russian and their native Udmurt. lol Right now they are going around the country, singing to raise money to build a new church in their village. Important task, you know, in most villages in Russia churches serve not only as a place of worship, but also as the school, and main community meeting hall.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

They would have been good in Eurovision, I'm sure. We need more elderly people in Eurovision.

But as long as it wasn't in 2003, when you had that great band TaTu, representing Russia ;)

Enjoy the sounds of this great Russian band...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FYrYJF16E

[MeMyselfAndI]

They would have been good in Eurovision, I'm sure. We need more elderly people in Eurovision.

But as long as it wasn't in 2003, when you had that great band TaTu, representing Russia ;)

Enjoy the sounds of this great Russian band...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FYrYJF16E

I know TaTu. Two lesbian girls... By the way, know what TaTu means? 'She-Her', 'She doing her'. The name says it all :)

You know, it is interesting, Russia is a very homophobic country, as I already said. But, most of the hatred is toward gay MEN, homosexuals. As for lesbians, like TaTu, if they are good looking like that, men actually find it sexually appealing, arousing, that is why many go to TaTu shows.

Those girls flaunt it too. When one of them was pregnant in 2008, they appeared on the cover of Russian version of Maxim
http://galeri.uludagsozluk.com/43/tatu_56387.jpg

And yes, those ladies from Buranovo should have been on Eurovision, I know, I voted for them lol It would have been something original, at least, not like that talentless pseudo-Gypsie whatever his name we ended up sending. Who lost, of course. Got less votes than the Ukrainian musician, which is REALLY embarrassing. Ukrainians still rub that in our face, you know.

Buranovskie Babushki are awesome. Here is them singing something from Beatles in Udmurt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n-7KCHFoqw

Bunch more of their songs here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B1%D0%B0 %D0%B1%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8&search_type=&aq=0&oq=%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8 1%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5

They are quite famous now, here's their site: http://www.buranovskiebabushki.ru/

Even have own Twitter account :rofl:
http://twitter.com/#!/BBabushki (http://twitter.com/#%21/BBabushki)

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Are they really gay (yes, the word 'gay' is not only about men)?

I can't find any websites that say they are gay (or lesbian), but I can find websites that say that they originally were marketed as gay, and that they have supported gay rights, or at least lesbian rights?

So are they really gay (lesbian)?

And by the way, thank you
Buranovskie Babushki's rendition of the Beatles' 'Yesterday' is great :) :) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n-7KCHFoqw

[Donkey]

I'm 99% sure that Tatu are only lesbian in terms of marketing.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I'm 99% sure that Tatu are only lesbian in terms of marketing.
But what would they gain from telling their potential market that they were gay?

[Donkey]

But what would they gain from telling their potential market that they were gay?

What the fuck do you think?

http://images.nonexiste.net/img/irc/2011/01/22/tatu-kiss-6500083.jpg

[MeMyselfAndI]

Good question, that is...

They certainly kissed on stage many times and acted generally like actual lovers...

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Oh well, good luck to them :)

[MeMyselfAndI]

Oh well, good luck to them :)

Indeed.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Sarcosy is just a racist little Hungarian prick, IMHO

Well, you are entitled to express your opinion, even though you have nothing to do with France - after all, I express my opinion on the United Russia party of dirty cheats, even though I have nothing to do with Russia.
;)