Should Saudi-Arabia open gay clubs?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Should Saudi-Arabia open gay clubs?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

People are happy to give France advice on the burka, now let's see what advice people give Saudi-Arabia on this issue.

[Michael]

Should Saudi-Arabia open gay clubs?

Well, if you want to see in improvement in 'rights' in Saudi Arabia, I should think that the right of free speech, free assembly, freedom of conscience, freedom of movement, freedom of expression and freedom from arbitrary arrest would rank higher in priority than the freedom of gay people to go dancing.

[The Drunk Guy]

Well, if you want to see in improvement in 'rights' in Saudi Arabia, I should think that the right of free speech, free assembly, freedom of conscience, freedom of movement, freedom of expression and freedom from arbitrary arrest would rank higher in priority than the freedom of gay people to go dancing.
True, but I think this is a good comparison to the trivial nature of the burqa ban.

To answer the question, yes, I would be wonderful if Saudi Arabia would allow private businesses to open gay clubs. Just the same, it would be wonderful if France repealed the burqa ban.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael, thank you for that comment. Feel free to answer the question in this thread, by the way ;)
Drunk Guy, thank you for that reply.

[Michael]

Michael, thank you for that comment. Feel free to answer the question in this thread, by the way ;)

I think that the two issues (burqas in France, gay clubs in Saudi) are entirely different and unrelated.

France generally recognizes the rights of individuals. Therefore the burqa ban is an arbitrary law that contradicts most of the principles that France stands for.

Saudi Arabia generally doesn't recognize the rights of individuals (or anyone else). Therefore the ban on gay clubs is consistent and uncontroversial in the context of Saudi Arabia.

Or to put it another way, what difference would it make if gay clubs were legal, but people could still be arrested just for showing up or talking about it?

Fact is, one has to recognize higher order rights before one can reasonably expect any respect for alternative lifestyle choices. Saudi Arabia is still a million miles from recognizing basic legal rights of citizens.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael, but would you say that Saudi-Arabia should open gay clubs, and ensure the safety of the clientele?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael I mean, I can see that you don't think it will happen, but do you think it should happen?

[MeMyselfAndI]

If that is what they want, sure.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

If that is what WHO want? Gays or the Saudi nation?

[Michael]

Michael, but would you say that Saudi-Arabia should open gay clubs, and ensure the safety of the clientele?
If I were a public policy analyst-consultant, hired by the Saudi government and asked this question, my answer would be "no". My reasoning would be that it would be impractically difficult, relentlessly opposed by the vast majority and extremely expensive and difficult to enforce and as such, that would be poor public policy for Saudi Arabia.

Michael I mean, I can see that you don't think it will happen, but do you think it should happen?
It is not for me to decide how the people of Saudi Arabia ought to live or how to order their own affairs. I believe that the people of Saudi Arabia have a right to rule themselves by the rules they choose - just as much as I believe that we westerners have the right to make rules we choose. Different strokes for different folks. Or viva la difference.

[Americano]

If that is what WHO want? Gays or the Saudi nation?

The Saudi Nation is tightly controlled by a monarchy using Wahhabism to define societal moral standards. I don't think it makes much difference what gays might want.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael But in France, the banning of the burqa is supported by the vast majority of the people. Just as you seem to be saying the Saudis support the banning of gay clubs.
Yet, you are pleased to tell the French what they should do, but not tell the Saudis what they should do.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/26/france.burqa.ban/
More than half of French people support a full ban, according to a recent opinion poll. The Ipsos poll for Le Point magazine found 57 percent of French people said it should be illegal to appear in public wearing clothes that cover the face

The French liberalism you speak of has in recent years been restricted, as the French have learned that extreme liberalism is a bit like turning the other cheek - self-destructive. It's called learning from one's mistakes.

So I cannot understand why you tell the French what they should do, but not the Saudis.

MeMyselfandI don't you think the Saudi's should respect gays, in the same way you think the French should respect the Muslims?

[Michael]

Michael But in France, the banning of the burqa is supported by the vast majority of the people. Just as you seem to be saying the Saudis support the banning of gay clubs.
Yet, you are pleased to tell the French what they should do, but not tell the Saudis what they should do.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/26/france.burqa.ban/
More than half of French people support a full ban, according to a recent opinion poll. The Ipsos poll for Le Point magazine found 57 percent of French people said it should be illegal to appear in public wearing clothes that cover the face

The French liberalism you speak of has in recent years been restricted, as the French have learned that extreme liberalism is a bit like turning the other cheek - self-destructive. It's called learning from one's mistakes.

So I cannot understand why you tell the French what they should do, but not the Saudis.

With regard to the French burqa ban, I have previously argued that it would theoretically be legally within the power of the French state to enact such a ban. I have also argued that it is the right of any given people to rule themselves as they see fit. If the French want to ban the burqa, it is their right to do so. I have also argued that I think that it is a very bad public policy to do so.

With regard to the Saudi gay ban, I have equally acknowledged that such a ban is legally within the power of the Saudi state to enact. I have also argued that it is the right of any given people to rule themselves as they see fit. If the Saudis want to ban the gays, it is their right to do so. I have also argued that lifting such a ban would be very bad public policy to do so.

Where am being inconsistent?

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael, I think your being inconsistent because of the reason why you think it is good policy to keep the ban on homosexuality in Saudi. The only reason I see you have given is that it would be unpopular to lift the ban. (the 'expensive' argument doesn't hold water in a country as rich as Saudi Arabia)
And in France, the ban on the burqa is the popular policy, as I've shown in the poll in my last posting.

But I'm glad you acknowledge the French state and people's right to ban the burqa, even though you don't agree with it.

[Michael]

Michael, I think your being inconsistent because of the reason why you think it is good policy to keep the ban on homosexuality in Saudi. The only reason I see you have given is that it would be unpopular to lift the ban. (the 'expensive' argument doesn't hold water in a country as rich as Saudi Arabia)
And in France, the ban on the burqa is the popular policy, as I've shown in the poll in my last posting.

But I'm glad you acknowledge the French state and people's right to ban the burqa, even though you don't agree with it.

No, I spoke of the extreme public opposition and the difficulty of doing so in Saudi as being the primary reasons for it being an impractical public policy.

Essentially, for Saudi to permit legal gay clubs and protect the patrons, the announcement of such a policy could reasonably be expected to cause large-scale political riots in Saudi - and a potential outbreak of regime threatening religious conflict or civil war.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Michael are you saying that there are times in life when, very very sadly, the importance of pleasing people is in proportion with their likelihood of being violent?

[dilettante]

Should Saudi-Arabia open gay clubs?

I think you should refine the question a bit.

Do you mean, should the government of Saudia Arabia establish gay clubs?

Do you mean, should the people of Saudia Arabia just start opening gay clubs now?

Do you mean, should the laws of Saudia Arabia allow for the establishment of a gay club?

Do you mean, should the culture of Saudia Arabia change such that being gay doesn't lead to one being killed by a mob?



The Burqua ban issue in France is very specific; it's a question about a given piece of public policy which makes it easier to discuss.

Your question in the OP is vague. In general, I think people should be more accepting and that Saudia Arabia has some issues with intolerence. But just throwing open a gay club tomorrow in Riyadh is a bad idea.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

dilletante, I mean 'should the Saudi-Government legalise homosexuality and then allow for gay clubs to be opened. Sorry for being unclear, but I trust you understand this explanation, at least ;)
As for mob killings, I refer you to my previous posting on this thread.

[Michael]

Michael are you saying that there are times in life when, very very sadly, the importance of pleasing people is in proportion with their likelihood of being violent?

No, I'm not saying that specifically, but I'm certainly willing to admit that deep down, when it comes to politics, I'm definitely and relatively pragmatic about my love and support for the principle of 'liberty for all'.

In that light, asserting the democratic rights of muslim minorities in France seems like a reasonable fight, asserting the human rights of gay minorities in Saudi Arabia looks like a lost cause. :shrug:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

If the French people are less likely to react with violence to something different, which they don't like, than certain other nations are, then I think the French people should be afforded respect, as a reward.

[Michael]

If the French people are less likely to react with violence to something different, which they don't like, than certain other nations are, then I think the French people should be afforded respect, as a reward.

I am rewarding France with my respect for the democratic laws of France, even if I disagree with them on this issue.

I have nothing but contempt for the laws of Saudi Arabia.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well, except for the one on homosexuality, it seems.

[Michael]

Well, except for the one on homosexuality, it seems.

I assue you that I'm contemptuous of ALL the laws in Saudi Arabia. No exceptions of any kind.

[dilettante]

dilletante, I mean 'should the Saudi-Government legalise homosexuality and then allow for gay clubs to be opened. Sorry for being unclear, but I trust you understand this explanation, at least ;)

Yes that clarifies things quite a bit.

In that case, I think it would be good for the Saudis to move toward a place where such a change could happen without mass violence. At the moment, I suspect that would take shape in a steady decrease in extremist rhetoric and a declining emphasis on enforcing laws that uphold bigotry and intolerence (of all shades).

I agree with Michael in that simply declaring that homosexuality as legal and officially accepted would be disasterously ill-advised at this moment. Based on my (extremely limited) understanding of Saudi culture, the likely result of such a symbolic gesture would not be an actual increase in freedom and tolerence but violence and popular revolt.

[Donkey]

Short answer, yes.

But let's be honest, the answer isn't that simple. Saudia Arabia needs a massive human and civil rights overhall. Not remotely limited to gay rights.


Ironically, men almost certainly have more rights to fraternize with each other than men and women do.

[Greendruid]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with Michael on this issue. From my perspective, there is a massive cultural shift that would have to even allow for some very basic things that Westerners take for granted to take place first. I mean, homosexuality was illegal in Canada until the 1960s! Look at how long it has taken the West to come to terms with even getting to this point on this specific issue. There are A LOT of things that have to change in Saudi Arabia first in order for gay clubs to be opened up. Opening gay clubs is not a first-order right that is typical of any democracy that has come through that transition. There seems to be an order to these things happening, and I'm not saying here that there is something like cultural evolution going on either. It just seems that there are some starting points in transitioning into democratic systems and tolerance of gay rights, let alone the opening of gay clubs is not early on that list.

Therefore, my conclusion is that opening gay clubs in Saudi Arabia, as it exists today, would most certainly be met with the outcome Michael described. It would be a bad idea under the current cultural state of affairs.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Greendruid, that's a valid point you make. But we must respect the French people as much as we respect the Saudi's and the French people have made it clear, that they don't want to see the culturally alien burqa in their streets. (or do we only respect people who are likely to turn violent?)
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/eu...nce.burqa.ban/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/26/france.burqa.ban/)
More than half of French people support a full ban, according to a recent opinion poll. The Ipsos poll for Le Point magazine found 57 percent of French people said it should be illegal to appear in public wearing clothes that cover the face

[MeMyselfAndI]

Greendruid, that's a valid point you make. But we must respect the French people as much as we respect the Saudi's and the French people have made it clear, that they don't want to see the culturally alien burqa in their streets. (or do we only respect people who are likely to turn violent?)
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/eu...nce.burqa.ban/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/26/france.burqa.ban/)
More than half of French people support a full ban, according to a recent opinion poll. The Ipsos poll for Le Point magazine found 57 percent of French people said it should be illegal to appear in public wearing clothes that cover the face

And 40% of ethnic Russians, for example, feel that Russia should be for ethnic Russians only, or at least that ethnic Russians should be superior to and have privileged status over all other ethnicities here. With over 160 different ethnic groups in this country, most of them native to their territories, you can see why the government does not hurry particularly to cater to that view. If they did, it would likely start a civil war. The French government is not in that situation, luckily for them. Yet they still want to split up their society, the stupid bastards.

My point is, many peoples have customs that are strange, to you. Many here used to think, for example, that the Buryat people in Siberia are strange, because of their passion for archery, the sport and deadly combat art of their Mongol ancestors
http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad314/kushka84/Pajero%201993/MongolArcherInnerMongolia1940s.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4255/1281724209853973.jpg
[Bottom photo is a screenshot from the movie Mongol: the rise of Chingiz-han: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416044/]

http://www.baikaltravel.ru/common/upload/8.jpghttp://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4863/3581bc.jpghttp://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1720/3881c.jpghttp://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6778/11709447.jpg

Well, then, today, Buryat archers like Bair Badenov
http://www.archery-sila.ru/images/stories/stati/bair1.jpg

and Anna Fedorova
http://www.novorab.ru/Content/uploadfiles/image/%D0%A1%D0%9F%D0%9E%D0%A0%D0%A2/%D0%A4%D0%95%D0%94%D0%9E%D0%A0%D0%9E%D0%92%D0%90-%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%BA.jpg

win us Olympic medals :)

You never know. Just because you disagree with something, does not mean you should ban it. It never hurts to keep an open mind. I mean that for homosexualism too. I disagree with it, would not be comfortable with it, would not like it if one of my children turned out a gay. But, I would not let that affect how I treat them in life.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

MeMyselfandI, so do you think that Saudi-Arabia should open gay clubs, in order to have an open mind? Or is it only the French and Russians that should have open minds?

[MeMyselfAndI]

MeMyselfandI, so do you think that Saudi-Arabia should open gay clubs, in order to have an open mind? Or is it only the French and Russians that should have open minds?

I think Saudi Arabia will evolve in her time. Be patient. Much of the Middle East and the Islamic World are currently at the level of social development of Medieval Europe. Who knows, maybe in a hundred years they will be like Europe is now.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Yes, and maybe in 100 years the French will be ready to accept the burqa. Be patient.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Yes, and maybe in 100 years the French will be ready to accept the burqa. Be patient.

My point is, at present, the Muslim countries are behind, for example, those of the EU, in terms of social, legal, and moral evolution. It is not all their fault either. They've been occupied and colonized so many times by so many, be it the British, Germans, French, Italians, Turks, Soviets (Afghanistan) now Israelis (for Palestine), Americans/NATO (Iraq, Afghanistan). They did not have a chance to fully develop yet.

We have that here too.

Cossacks, for example. They live like they did before the Revolution, before 1917. Ride around on horses, wear uniforms from that era (or dresses, for women). And they have kept the social norms from those times too, where women are not allowed to work, they are only to stay home, and clean, cook, and give birth to children. Men there do not ever so much as enter their kitchen, that's women's work. And they are very religious, fundamentalist, in fact, and reactionary. Russian Orthodox Church uses them for their purposes often enough, like in Sverdlovsk oblast recently, where 20 armed Cossacks backed mainstream Orthodox priest Vladimir Gusev in a raid on a break-away Orthodox sect. They bashed down the door, beat up the people in that church, threw them out of the building, beat the priest too, smashed their icons, and took away some more expensive ones. Today, according the sect leader, their church is held by the mainstreat Orthodox authorities, locked and guarded by the Cossacks. They are praying at home, are afraid to come outside. http://www.pervouralsk.ru/news/8315

It's like that, mate. It is not only Muslims who can be extreme, backward, bigoted, and violent.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I never said only Muslims could be like that.
But I will see this.
If gays have to be patient and wait 100 years for a gay club in Saudi-Arabia, then it's absolutely fine that Muslims have to be patient and wait 100 years to be able to wear a burqa in France.

[Donkey]

I never said only Muslims could be like that.
But I will see this.
If gays have to be patient and wait 100 years for a gay club in Saudi-Arabia, then it's absolutely fine that Muslims have to be patient and wait 100 years to be able to wear a burqa in France.

I don't know that anybody said it's fine, per se. It's the way it is. It sucks. A lot of things suck in Saudi Arabia. :shrug:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I agree.
But at least I don't live there.;)

[Donkey]

I agree.
But at least I don't live there.;)

Indeed. I think I started a thread about living there, actually. Let me see if I can find it.

[abbasi]

Every country & nation have a specific era or age of moderation. Some have had it but some will have to it.

But after keeping in mind that saudi arabia's policies, i can say that it will take may be thousand years to open a gay club in saudi arabia.

But on the other hand UAE (Dubai) is also a muslim country but its policies are some how parallel with developed countries.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#Western_Asia
abbasit, according to wikipedia, UAE is as stricktly anti-gay as its neighbours.

[abbasi]

Thanks for correction:)

[Michael]

Every country & nation have a specific era or age of moderation. Some have had it but some will have to it.

But after keeping in mind that saudi arabia's policies, i can say that it will take may be thousand years to open a gay club in saudi arabia.
Indeed, I've been arguing exactly this point.

I'd like to see basic human rights in Saudi first. :lol:

[NickKIELCEPoland]

I regard an adult's right to declare his / her love for another consenting adult a basic human right.
Certainly, it's no less a right than to celebrate one's religion.

[Michael]

I regard an adult's right to declare his / her love for another consenting adult a basic human right.

It may be a basic right for one to declare it, but one doesn't have the right to be accepted by anyone for doing so.

And human rights are pretty much meaningless anyway. Rights only exist insofar as a political majority is willing to enforce them.

[NickKIELCEPoland]

Well meaningless or not, you brought them up ;)
What do you mean by accepted? Do you mean 'allowed'?
If that's what you mean, I refer you back to the burqa debate.

[Donkey]

I regard an adult's right to declare his / her love for another consenting adult a basic human right.
Certainly, it's no less a right than to celebrate one's religion.

Yes and? I don't think anyone is saying that the Saudis shouldn't be more tolerant.