Terror attacks in Mumbai

[Malvolio]

Terror attacks in Mumbai; 80 dead, over 900 injured
27 Nov 2008, 0224 hrs IST, TIMES NEWS NETWORK & AGENCIES


Mumbai: In one of the most violent terror attacks on Indian soil, Mumbai came under an unprecedented night attack as terrorists used heavy
machine guns, including AK-47s, and grenades to strike at the city's most high-profile targets -- the hyper-busy CST (formerly VT) rail terminus; the landmark Taj Hotel at the Gateway and the luxury Oberoi Trident at Nariman Point; the domestic airport at Santa Cruz; the Cama and GT hospitals near CST; the Metro Adlabs multiplex and Mazgaon Dockyard -- killing at least 80 and sending more than 900 to hospital, according to latest reports.

The attacks have taken a tragic toll on the city's top police brass: The high-profile chief of the anti-terror squad Hemant Karkare was killed; Mumbai's additional commissioner of police (east) Ashok Kamte was gunned down outside the Metro; and celebrated encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar was also killed.

The attacks appeared to be aimed at getting international attention as the terrorists took upto 40 British nationals and other foreigners hostage. The chairman of Hindustan Unilever Harish Manwani and CEO of the company Nitin Paranjpe were among the guests trapped at the Oberoi. All the internal board members of the multinational giant were reported to be holed up in the Oberoi hotel.

Two terrorists were reported holed up inside the Oberoi Hotel. Fresh firing has been reported at Oberoi and Army has entered the hotel to flush out the terrorists.

An unknown outfit, Deccan Mujahideen, has sent an email to news organizations claiming that it carried out the Mumbai attacks.

The Army and Navy in Mumbai were put on alert. 65 Army commandos and 200 NSG commandos were being rushed to Mumbai, Home Minister Shivraj Patil said.

The Navy commandos too have been asked to assist the police. Special secretary M L Kumawat is in constant touch with the state police.

Some media reports attributed the attack to Lashkar-e-Taiba. There were also unconfirmed reports that some of the terrorists came in by sea. A boat laden with explosives was recovered later at night off the Gateway of India.

Well after midnight, sources said two of the terrorists were shot and wounded at Girgaum in south Mumbai. The two were driving in a commandeered silver-coloured Skoda car. Earlier, these men had sprayed bullets from a police Bolero, outside the Metro Adlabs multiplex.

The attacks occurred at the busiest places. Besides hotels and hospitals, terrorists struck at railway stations, Crawford Market, Wadi Bunder and on the Western Express Highway near the airport. Several of these places are within a one-km radius of the commissioner of police's office.

"This is definitely a terrorist strike. Seven places have been attacked with automatic weapons and grenades. Terrorists are still holed up in three locations Taj and Oberoi hotels and GT Hospital. Encounters are on at all three places," said Maharashtra DGP A N Roy.

St George's Hospital and G T Hospital were said to have received 75 bodies and more than 250 injured people, additional municipal commissioner R A Rajeev said. Bombay Hospital got two bodies and 30 injured people were admitted there; Cooper Hospital, Vile Parle, got three dismembered bodies.

Three of the deaths occurred inside the Taj and one G T Hospital attendant died in a shootout inside the hospital. There were reports of people cowering under tables and chairs at both the Taj as well as G T Hospital.

Metro Junction resident Manoj Goel said: "My brother, Manish, died in the firing at Colaba's Hamaal Galli." Cops fired back at the men -- probably from one of the Lashkar groups, dressed in black and with backpacks and SRPF, Crime Branch, ATS and teams of military commandos were summoned to the spot. Train services at CST were suspended and all roads leading to and from south Mumbai were blockaded.

Maharashtra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh cut short his Kerala visit and was returning to Mumbai. He described the situation in Mumbai as "very serious".

Deshmukh promised "stringent action" against the assailants but the mood across Mumbai was not so optimistic.


There were reports of firing around several landmark buildings in the Colaba-Nariman Point area, including the Taj hotel, Oberoi and other tourist attractions and pubs like Leopold's. The top floor of Oberoi was said to be on fire amid reports of blasts in the area and blood-smeared bodies were being brought out of the Taj lobby.

Terrorists were said to be holed up at the Taj as well as G T Hospital and cops scampered to cordon off these places. A white flag was seen fluttering from an Oberoi Hotel window around 11.20 pm, where a blast was said to have occurred.

The blast on the Western Express Highway -- near Centaur Hotel outside the airport -- occurred in a taxi, deputy commissioner of police Nissar Tamboli said.

The firing and bombing started close to the Gateway of India. The gunbattle then moved on towards CST and raged on for over an hour from 10 pm, sending commuters running out of the station.

The assailants also fired into the crowd at CST and people on the trains and then ran out of the station themselves and into neighbouring buildings, including Cama Hospital, after being challenged by cops.

SRPF personnel then entered the iconic BMC building -- just opposite CST -- to take aim at the assailants, BMC commissioner Jairaj Phatak said. "We fear some of the assailants are still inside the station and we want to catch them if they come out,'' a police official said.

Vikhroli police station senior inspector Habib Ansari was on his way to work from his Colaba home when he saw two armed men, with sophisticated weaponry, trying to run into bylanes near the Gateway of India."I rushed back to Colaba and all policemen, including GRP and RPF personnel, were called up," he added.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3761410,prtpage-1.cms


.... developing

[partofme]

Looks like it may turn into a hostage situation that could last a while.

[Americano]

I haven't been following it and in trying to grasp the current US terrorism talk-speak is the group Indian Muslim separatists in rebellion or an outside group of foreign fighters?

[Michael]

Death toll is up over 120, but it looks like the situations are resolved now with most hostages freed.

I'd take the 'foreigners' angle with a grain of salt - that's standard Indian political boiler-plate in such situations (always inferring Pakistan as the source). It may be true, or it could be home-grown Indian terrorism. I'm not up on Indian politics well enough to comment on this.

MUMBAI, India (CNN) -- Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh suggests the group behind the Mumbai terrorist attacks is based outside the country as police battle gunmen in three locations to free hostages a day after more than 120 people were killed.

CNN reporters said regular gun fire and blasts could be heard Thursday at the Oberoi and Taj Mahal hotels and a Jewish center in the city.

Late in the day police had some success, with 10 hostages reportedly freed from the Oberoi.

Maharashtra official Bhushan Gagrani said the Taj situation was "almost sorted out" and that police expected to clear the Oberoi by tonight. Hostages remained, but he didn't say how many. Video Watch more on hostages being released »

Meanwhile, Singh suggested the group behind the attacks was based outside India and probably had "external linkages."

"It is evident that the group which carried out these attacks, based outside the country, had come with single-minded determination to create havoc in the financial capital of the country," he said.

Source (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/27/india.attacks/index.html)

[Americano]

Credit for the attack has been claimed by the Deccan Mujahideen group, which is according to Wiki an alleged political terrorist Muslim group within India itself. Until the US decided all acts of crime, war and spitting in the street would be deemed terrorist, wouldn't this fall under the rebellion category?

[Michael]

Credit for the attack has been claimed by the Deccan Mujahideen group, which is according to Wiki an alleged political terrorist Muslim group within India itself. Until the US decided all acts of crime, war and spitting in the street would be deemed terrorist, wouldn't this fall under the rebellion category?
An act of rebellion is one targetted against the Government.

Any attack against civilian targets by non-nation-states is usually defined as terrorism, even when it is domestic.

The McVie attack in Oaklahoma was terrorism.

[Americano]

An act of rebellion is one targetted against the Government.

Any attack against civilian targets by non-nation-states is usually defined as terrorism, even when it is domestic.

The McVie attack in Oaklahoma was terrorism.

I prefer the criminal and rebellious labels. Islamic extremists consider the US (and other democracies) as government by the people for the people, with no distinction between civilians, military, government officials. The US uses that same rationalization when bombing Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Then comes the age old 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. Terrorist has become a very handy word for aggressive governments.

[Michael]

I prefer the criminal and rebellious labels. Islamic extremists consider the US (and other democracies) as government by the people for the people, with no distinction between civilians, military, government officials. The US uses that same rationalization when bombing Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Then comes the age old 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. Terrorist has become a very handy word for aggressive governments.
I believe the term has multiple meanings. The political meaning (US-defined) is that terrorism is the act of a non-state actor against anyone. This definition is entirely self-serving of US interests. Any attack on US interests without a state-sponsored act of war, is terrorism by US definition. Using this US definition, the Mumbai action clearly is terrorism.

Personally, I prefer to use the term as a descriptive verb - it describes an act. Any act where 'creating terror' is the object/goal, and civilians are the target, is terrorism in my book. Doesn't matter to me whether or not it is a state-sponsored actor or non-state actor doing the act. Terrorism is defined by the act. Using my definition, the Mumbai action is also terrorism.

I think a act of 'rebellion' must be directed against the state to be so named as 'rebellion.

[Americano]

I believe the term has multiple meanings. The political meaning (US-defined) is that terrorism is the act of a non-state actor against anyone. This definition is entirely self-serving of US interests. Any attack on US interests without a state-sponsored act of war, is terrorism by US definition. Using this US definition, the Mumbai action clearly is terrorism.

Personally, I prefer to use the term as a descriptive verb - it describes an act. Any act where 'creating terror' is the object/goal, and civilians are the target, is terrorism in my book. Doesn't matter to me whether or not it is a state-sponsored actor or non-state actor doing the act. Terrorism is defined by the act. Using my definition, the Mumbai action is also terrorism.

I think a act of 'rebellion' must be directed against the state to be so named as 'rebellion.

I'm still getting up to speed on the interests involved. China (currently pushing economic development in Pakistan) who has a small piece of Kashmir, India who has been to war with Pakistan three times over Kashmir and who is a US ally, Pakistan, who spent a majority of the $20B of US military aid it was awarded to fight the Taliban on its border with India military defenses, also a US military ally, and the Kashmiri people.

I'm just getting to a point of looking at the ethnic groups in Kashmir and their ideologies. With Afghanistan/Iraq news currently overwhelmed by the financial crisis and US change in leadership, I'd think this is going to get a lot of attention.

The raids were extremely professional, far beyond the displayed logistics and field capabilities of Al Qaeda. I was impressed by the operational capabilities, seven successful hits at one time, and very curious about India's lack of initial military response. India's Generals seeking budget expansion?

I'm still having trouble verbally getting beyond the words guerrilla and criminal in a global society.

[Dominick]

These are strange attacks. They don't make military sense, and don't even make sense in the warped concept of terrorism. The targets seem random (an inconspicuous Jewish community centre, a hospital, a pub, hotels.... :confused:)
If anything, it reminds me of the raid on Dieppe, in the sense of a trial (and only in that sense). Perhaps some factions are preparing to overthrow the caste system in India which is still very much in place. That would only tangentially be related to Islamist terrorism then. Just a thought.

[partofme]

These are strange attacks. They don't make military sense, and don't even make sense in the warped concept of terrorism. The targets seem random (an inconspicuous Jewish community centre, a hospital, a pub, hotels.... :confused:)
If anything, it reminds me of the raid on Dieppe, in the sense of a trial (and only in that sense). Perhaps some factions are preparing to overthrow the caste system in India which is still very much in place. That would only tangentially be related to Islamist terrorism then. Just a thought.

Reports I have seen suggest that at least the hotels and a few other businesses where places that foreigners that do business in the financial center frequent and they asked for people with British and American passports. That may end up not being the case but witnesses have stated that so far. Maybe the just added some of the others to increase the magnitude.

[partofme]

Interesting article from The New York Times. The analysis here seems to suggest that one big scare is that India's Prime Minister made suggestive comments about Pakistan from fear that the I.S.I. may be involved and they suggest that this could be designed to harm the relationship between India and Pakistan which has been warmer lately.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/asia/28diplo.html?pagewanted=1&hp

[Michael]

Interesting article from The New York Times. The analysis here seems to suggest that one big scare is that India's Prime Minister made suggestive comments about Pakistan from fear that the I.S.I. may be involved and they suggest that this could be designed to harm the relationship between India and Pakistan which has been warmer lately.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/asia/28diplo.html?pagewanted=1&hp
As I noted above, one has to take this point with a grain of salt. It is ingrained in Indian politics to blame Pakistan for EVERYTHING - they do it all the time and will go to great lengths to 'manufacture' evidence to support the assertion.

From what I'm reading, there is NO links to Pakistan at all here. It is said the gunmen were speaking Hindi amongst themselves and that the group claiming responsibility is domestic Indian.

[Americano]

As I noted above, one has to take this point with a grain of salt. It is ingrained in Indian politics to blame Pakistan for EVERYTHING - they do it all the time and will go to great lengths to 'manufacture' evidence to support the assertion.

From what I'm reading, there is NO links to Pakistan at all here. It is said the gunmen were speaking Hindi amongst themselves and that the group claiming responsibility is domestic Indian.

Pakistan's ISI chief, one of the most powerful people in Pakistan, was planning a first-ever visit to India to reassure India that Pakistan had no part in the action.

[Michael]

Pakistan's ISI chief, one of the most powerful people in Pakistan, was planning a first-ever visit to India to reassure India that Pakistan had no part in the action.
Yes, the Pakistanis were very quick off the mark to assure the Indian government/people that they were not involved. They know the 'lay of the land' and could be blamed for it.

This one definitely looks like 'domestic India' to me.

[Americano]

Yes, the Pakistanis were very quick off the mark to assure the Indian government/people that they were not involved. They know the 'lay of the land' and could be blamed for it.

This one definitely looks like 'domestic India' to me.

Considering the levels of professionalism displayed in the actions I'd say India has a real problem.

I'd also think Five-star hotels in countries with armed political dissension are facing some serious upward insurance rate adjustments and professional security upgrades.

[Greendruid]

Yes, the Pakistanis were very quick off the mark to assure the Indian government/people that they were not involved. They know the 'lay of the land' and could be blamed for it.

This one definitely looks like 'domestic India' to me.

I heard on CBC radio this evening that the sole live captive among the gunmen is Pakistani. Whether he actually is or not remains to be seen but that's the latest I've heard.

[partofme]

I heard on CBC radio this evening that the sole live captive among the gunmen is Pakistani. Whether he actually is or not remains to be seen but that's the latest I've heard.

The big fear is that even of the Pakistani government didn't officially have anything to do with this there are so many rogue elements in the military and I.S.I. that they could be involved and it's hard to say if India will make that distinction or not if that is the case.

[Americano]

To me this event brought to light the severity of differences between India and Pakistan and other influences. The US recently sided with India by offering sales of combat aircraft and nuclear development assistance which it didn't offer to Pakistan. The US is creating enormous political dissension in Pakistan by demanding Pakistan military rid the Pashtun area of Taliban and Al Qaeda, an impossibility without genocide involving over 40-million people, or the US itself will attempt it. Still, in my mind, a refocus from the US Afghanistan failure.

The attack in Mumbai is a small window to the overall problem. Why can't the US mind its own business. Let India and Pakistan duke it out.

[Michael]

To me this event brought to light the severity of differences between India and Pakistan and other influences. The US recently sided with India by offering sales of combat aircraft and nuclear development assistance which it didn't offer to Pakistan. The US is creating enormous political dissension in Pakistan by demanding Pakistan military rid the Pashtun area of Taliban and Al Qaeda, an impossibility without genocide involving over 40-million people, or the US itself will attempt it. Still, in my mind, a refocus from the US Afghanistan failure.
All very true.

The attack in Mumbai is a small window to the overall problem. Why can't the US mind its own business. Let India and Pakistan duke it out.
1. Because they both have nukes.

2. US has traditionally considered control of Pakistan to be critical for control of Central Asia - the one place on the globe the US geopolitical strength is weakest - and most desired. US always seeks to enhance and/or expand their geopolitical military advantage. Pakistan is key to this.

[Michael]

And things are already progressing exactly as I've feared they will in India. The true nature of the attack will be as clear as the assassination of Bhutto a few months ago - lots of questions, lots of rumors, lots of suspicious state activity and very few answers.

There is also a genuine concern that this could produce the same kind of absurd US-style 9/11 reaction where they go around shooting themselves in the foot in the name of 'national security'.

For my money, this looks like it might be just a big 'diversion' to cover a hit on the head of the Indian intelligence service - the fellow much hated by the Indian Hindu nationalist-extremist faction. Government anti-democratic conspiracies in India make US 9/11 conspiracy buffs to look like child's play. Both India and Pakistani governments are routinely accused of enabling or supporting extremist political factions.

[Americano]

All very true.


1. Because they both have nukes.

Neither has delivery systems capable of using them on the US.

2. US has traditionally considered control of Pakistan to be critical for control of Central Asia - the one place on the globe the US geopolitical strength is weakest - and most desired. US always seeks to enhance and/or expand their geopolitical military advantage. Pakistan is key to this.

And all was going somewhat well in that circumstance until the US failure in Afghanistan. Pakistan was behaving like a good US military satellite force, somewhat owned Afghanistan and it was just a matter of the US continuing to pump money and military aid into Pakistan to keep the generals pacified.

The Afghanistan failure put the US in a position of looking for someone to blame for the failure with Pakistan as the obvious fish in that barrel. All of a sudden the US is pouring money and military into India in hopes of shifting that tenuous hold on Central Asia hegemony, but India lived that life under Britain and I don't think India will succumb to the lure of the US military siren.

Considering that Pakistan's economy is being kept from complete collapse only by IMF injections, the US will probably push Pakistan's military into a corner on the Afghanistan issue to save face and India is again faced with internal dissension magnified by the recent attacks, I do not envy Pakistan's position.

[Americano]

And things are already progressing exactly as I've feared they will in India. The true nature of the attack will be as clear as the assassination of Bhutto a few months ago - lots of questions, lots of rumors, lots of suspicious state activity and very few answers.

There is also a genuine concern that this could produce the same kind of absurd US-style 9/11 reaction where they go around shooting themselves in the foot in the name of 'national security'.

For my money, this looks like it might be just a big 'diversion' to cover a hit on the head of the Indian intelligence service - the fellow much hated by the Indian Hindu nationalist-extremist faction. Government anti-democratic conspiracies in India make US 9/11 conspiracy buffs to look like child's play. Both India and Pakistani governments are routinely accused of enabling or supporting extremist political factions.

Business as usual. India has already called for increased 'national security'.

[Michael]

Very confusing issue. Seems like some rogue Pakistani elements might be involved afterall... still lots of conflicting information coming out. Seems like they were definitely Muslim not Hindi. The plot thickens...

[Dominick]

I haven't been following this in the news so my idea might be totally off but I keep wondering whether there's not some connection with the Pirates.

Those pirates have been acquiring some decent ransoms and those would perfectly suit the financing of an attack such as happened in Mumbai. Other than that the equipment seems eerily similar, specifically the state-of-the-art hypermodern GPS stuff. Those are definitely not for sale in the Radio Shack in Mogadishu.

I think it's ultimately a big error to always think of nations when looking for culprits for these things. I don't think the nationality of the perpetrators or even the location of their bases is all that important. They might very well be operating entirely outside of that paradigm. I'm suspecting some ad hoc alliance between common criminals, radical elements from oppressed peoples in the region (plenty of those around) and fundamentalist Islamists. And none of those even recognize the nations in which they live or operate. The Somali fishermen e.g. are just hired hands and very likely not the masterminds. In fact, if I wanted to find the masterminds -if there is such an alliance and/or link between Mumbai and the pirates- the first place I'd look would be Yemen.

Just a hypothesis :shrug:

[Americano]

Very confusing issue. Seems like some rogue Pakistani elements might be involved afterall... still lots of conflicting information coming out. Seems like they were definitely Muslim not Hindi. The plot thickens...

They've had three wars. Do you think the US is pushing India (the recent military and nuke aid) to influence Pakistan regarding increased US military actions from Afghanistan into Pakistan? In Pakistan's shoes I'd want to send a strong message.

[Michael]

They've had three wars. Do you think the US is pushing India (the recent military and nuke aid) to influence Pakistan regarding increased US military actions from Afghanistan into Pakistan? In Pakistan's shoes I'd want to send a strong message.
If it is, it would uncharacteristically bold, innovative and mega-risky for the US to play that kind of foreign policy game.

I see the situation in reverse actually - that US moves toward India (blindly taken by the US as an opportunity with the fall of the Soviets, India's traditional ally), and that this has massively destabilized Pakistani politics (an unintended consequence of the pro-India policy).

A destabilized Pakistan is unable/unwilling to deal with the complex Pushkin and Islamic radical problem in the Pakistani Northwest (and thus it festers). And don't forget Kashmir - US moves to India can be taken in Pakistan as a sign they may lose Kashmir - thus they get desperate and fanatical and turn against the US dictator (Musharef) and resurrected the US-hated Bhutto instead (who then gets conveniently assassinated).

This kind of bumbling is more characteristic of traditional US foreign policy (unfortunately).