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MeMyselfAndI
Oct 11th 2010, 09:47 PM
Moscow, Muslims may end up praying in churches
by Nina Achmatova
The mufti of the capital warns: lack of mosques, we would not want to end up celebrating in churches. The Russian Orthodox Patriarchate says it is "happy to accommodate our Muslim brothers." But these are superficial statements to content the government's policy of tolerance. Neither community is planning to arrive at such "extreme" solutions.
Moscow (AsiaNews) - Muslims in Moscow may be forced to pray in Orthodox churches because of a lack of mosques, though they would prefer not arrive at such an "extreme" decision. The warning comes from the imam of the main mosque in the Russian capital Ildar Ayautdinov, responding to citizens' protests against the planned construction of a place of Islamic worship in the district of Tekstilschiki. The Orthodox Church says it is ready to accept the Muslim faithful, but scholars of Islam argue that Muslim religious leaders are magnifying the situation which in reality is not so dramatic.
"Moscow is the only place in the world where over one million Muslims are served in only four mosques. We lack premises for praying. Muslims are allowed to conduct their religious ceremonies in Orthodox churches, but we would rather avoid this extreme measure, "he said yesterday in an interview with Russian daily Ayautdinov Metro. On Sept. 11, residents of Tekstilschiki took to the streets, along the Volga road, to say no to the plans to build a mosque in a green area, the only one for several kilometres. According to locals, who are gathering signatures for a petition, the mosque "would create parking problems and would represent a threat to the owners of dogs”, animals considered incarnation of the devil by the faithful of Islam. Previously, the residents themselves had asked to have an Orthodox chapel in the area, but permission was denied. For their part, supporters of the construction of the mosque, such as Arthur Urmanshin, ensure that originally there were more mosques in Moscow.
Dmitri Smirnov, head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for Relations with the Armed Forces, says that "the doors of our churches are open to our Muslim brothers." "Even now – he continues - some are Muslims involved in the construction of churches, Sunday schools and the restoration of our religious heritage, such as our Uzbek and Tajik brothers to whom we are very grateful."
The archpriest’s words are part of a strategy of tolerance towards the Muslim component, typical of the policy of premier Vladimir Putin concerned about containing separatist forces within the Muslim Caucasus. The Orthodox Church has adapted to the government policy in exchange for recognition of its supremacy at acultural and social level in Russia.
According to the expert on Islam Roman Silantyev, interviewed by Interfax, the demand for new mosques by Muslims in Moscow is baseless. "It 's time to end any speculation about discrimination against Muslims in the capital," he said. He corrects the mufti Ayautdinov, adding that the actual number of Muslims is estimated "around 400 thousand and there are not four mosques available, but six." Besides these, he continues, there are dozens of other small mosques and prayer rooms, which are sufficient for the entire community. According Silantyev, complaints about the shortage of mosques in Moscow "do not arise from the need to take care of the faithful, but by a desire to concentrate all donations in a few places controlled by a one Islamic organization rather than another."


http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Moscow,-Muslims-may-end-up-praying-in-churches-19500.html

Well, today, near the cathedral mosque, were confrontations. 10,000 Muslims assembled there for prayer, ethnic Tatars mostly, as has been since 1904, when that mosque was built. But the mosque can only take in 2,000-3,000 people. The rest had to stand outside. They wanted to set up a large tent to pray in. There were maybe couple thousand of OMON paramilitary troops standing around in groups of 3 to 5, dressed in their distinctive blue camoufalge, with black masks on, bullet-proof vests, AKs. Standing and watching. Just staring at the Muslims. It's hard enough to pray when you have armed soldiers standing over you. But, also, nobody bothered to close down the road. So, when they had to move through the road to get around the mosque, or even to cross it, they had to dodge traffic. This created a number of conflicts between the parishioners and drivers, not all of which would have ended peacefully or well for either side if not for the OMON. They quickly separated any scuffles and prevented any violence. But Muslim leaders say their people were dealt with more forcefully, thrown to the ground, kicked, handcuffed; one man says he was hit on the head with the butt of an Kalashnikov.
http://www.ng.ru/moscow/2010-10-11/1_religion.html

It's not good.

But that is just a drop in the sea of misery for Moscow Muslims. In the article they say 'over a million', but really, counting all the Central Asian illegal migrants, it would me more like two and a half million. And four mosques, the biggest of them, Cathedral mosque, can take in only, as I said, 2 to 3 thousand; and Tatars usually do not let Uzbeks and Tajiks and such people into, what they consider, thier mosque. As a result, particularly the poorer Muslims are forced to pray in schools, after hours; in parks; even in parking lots of shopping centers!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oqXpnURgYXo/TI3wl0oGIaI/AAAAAAAABZA/9_blknpCcAg/s1600/0_57473_f6ab4310_orig.jpg

They have to pray on the street, in the rain, or blazing summer heat, or freezing winter... If the governoment tried to treat Orthodox Christians this way... there would be rioting and pogroms in the streets. I have to say, the patience, and understanding and maturity of the Muslim community here is outstanding. It is a disgusting situation, really is.

Michael
Oct 13th 2010, 09:15 AM
The last paragraph quoted in the article seems to suggest that there is more to this issue than meets the eye...

According to the expert on Islam Roman Silantyev, interviewed by Interfax, the demand for new mosques by Muslims in Moscow is baseless. "It 's time to end any speculation about discrimination against Muslims in the capital," he said. He corrects the mufti Ayautdinov, adding that the actual number of Muslims is estimated "around 400 thousand and there are not four mosques available, but six." Besides these, he continues, there are dozens of other small mosques and prayer rooms, which are sufficient for the entire community. According Silantyev, complaints about the shortage of mosques in Moscow "do not arise from the need to take care of the faithful, but by a desire to concentrate all donations in a few places controlled by a one Islamic organization rather than another."

MeMyselfAndI
Oct 13th 2010, 11:04 AM
The last paragraph quoted in the article seems to suggest that there is more to this issue than meets the eye...

Silantyev is way off with his figures. 400,000?

I'll just go by predominantly Muslim ethnic groups.

In latest estimates in Moscow are:

654,000 Uzbeks (does not account for illegals, total would be over 1,000,000)
166,083 Tatars
120,136 Tajiks (400,000 estimated with illegals)
96,000 Azerbaijanis (low estimate, only accounts for those holding Russian citizenship or permanent resident registration. There are many who have not received either one yet)
33,000 Turkmen
32,000 Kyrgyz (again, same as Uzbeks and Tajiks, does not count illegals, total would be about 200,000)
20,000 Chechens
5,000 Ingush

Do the math. Even without the illegals, that is much more than 400,000.

Michael
Oct 13th 2010, 12:15 PM
It is impossible to 'count' illegals to begin with. Any number offered is always suspect by definition and is low-balled or high-balled depending on the bias/policy preference of the speaker.

However, that's beside the point. The point I'm seeing is the Islamic political issue - according to expert on Islam Roman Silantyev, quoted in the article, there is some internal Islamic political issue that may be confusing the issue.

According Silantyev, complaints about the shortage of mosques in Moscow "do not arise from the need to take care of the faithful, but by a desire to concentrate all donations in a few places controlled by a one Islamic organization rather than another."

That sounds like the 'shortage' of mosques is being driven by some Islamic political game seeking control over Islamic factions. If this is true, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it is, this suggests that there is more here than meets the eye.

MeMyselfAndI
Oct 13th 2010, 07:52 PM
It is impossible to 'count' illegals to begin with. Any number offered is always suspect by definition and is low-balled or high-balled depending on the bias/policy preference of the speaker.

However, that's beside the point. The point I'm seeing is the Islamic political issue - according to expert on Islam Roman Silantyev, quoted in the article, there is some internal Islamic political issue that may be confusing the issue.



That sounds like the 'shortage' of mosques is being driven by some Islamic political game seeking control over Islamic factions. If this is true, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it is, this suggests that there is more here than meets the eye.

There maybe a power game; But there is a shortage of mosques.

It is the truth that there are only 4 mosques in the whole city, I can name them to you:

Moscow Cathedral Mosque, built in 1904:
http://www.mihrab.ru/netcat_files/Image/DSC00733.JPG

Mufti Ravil Gainutdinov
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Ravil_Gaynutdin.jpg

Moscow Historic Mosque (built in 1823)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Moscow_Historical_mosque.jpg

Imam: Ramil-hazrat Sadekov (don't have picture, yet)

Memorial Mosque at Victory Square, newest one, opened in 1997, in honor of Russian Muslim warriors who gave their lives for our country in Great Patriotic War (WWII), and today, also assumed to be for all other wars after that
http://cache.photosight.ru/img/2/b82/2760263_large.jpg
The only one of the three that has, within it, an Islamic Madrasah (religious school, like seminary).

Imam: Shamil Aliautdinov
http://www.islamnews.ru/uploads/news/47246875/news-fg3WV9zLVh.jpg

And the new 'Erdem' mosque in Otradnoye district
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0//52/148/52148329_1260221084_otradnoe03.jpg

All four combined can take in maybe 30,000 people, perhaps 35,000, if you really cram in there. But, even by lowest estimates of the Moscow Muslim population, we are talking about hundreds of thousands, at least...

Michael
Oct 13th 2010, 08:08 PM
I'm in no position to argue with you about how many mosques there are in Moscow and/or what the capacity of such mosques are, and/or the actual population of Muslims in Moscow. :shrug:

Suffice it to say that there are obviously very few large mosques in Moscow and there obviously are many hundred thousand Muslims. Clearly there is a problem. The issue here is, what is the precise problem/issue that is causing the shortage? That has to be identified correctly before a meaningful solution can be found.

I've just studied a lot of history and politics of a lot of countries and one thing I've learned is that there is ALWAYS more than meets the eye when it comes to socio-cultural-political-religious 'problems' like this one. The answer, explanation or solution is rarely a simple one.

And in this case, the only article of information I have to go on, there is mention of some mysterious competition for control. My nose for politics smells something here, buried at the end of such an article. Propaganda and lies are usually in the title and the first paragraph - 'real' information is usually buried deep or near the end of an article. :shrug:

I'm curious what you think is the reason there is such a large shortage of mosques and/or places for Muslims to pray in Moscow.

MeMyselfAndI
Oct 13th 2010, 10:10 PM
I'm curious what you think is the reason there is such a large shortage of mosques and/or places for Muslims to pray in Moscow.

Racism/xenophobia. And I do not only speak of Russian/Slavic/Christian racism and xenophobia.

You see, two most well rooted and assimilated Muslim groups in this city are Tatars, who've been here since Russia was ruled by the Tsars, they built the Cathedral Mosque (also known as the Tatar Mosque exactly for that reason: who worships there, mostly) and the Historic Mosque, that they share with the Azerbaijanis. Ortadnoye has a large and fairly wealthy Azerbaijani community, they built the Erdem, for themselves to use. Both the Tatars and Azerbaijanis, as I said, are wealthy, educated, Tatars, many of them, hold now powerful political (Elvira Nabiullina, Minister for Economic Development http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Elvira_Nabiullina.jpg) and security (Rashid Nurgaliev, Minister for Internal Affairs/police, left, dressed in camos, next to the unpleasant Aleksandr Bortnikov, Director of FSB http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B4_%D0%9D%D1%83%D1%80% D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D0%90% D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D 0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0% B2.jpeg) posts; while Azerbaijanis are all in big business (I already mentioned Telman Ismailov http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Ismailov_Telman.jpg, yes, he is mafia. In this country, all big business is mafia, its how it works here). These two groups have money, power, influence. They refuse to pray in mosques with poor, dirty Tajik or Uzbek guest workers. So, they bar them from the mosques.

As for why no new mosques are built? Because everywhere they try to build one, local Slavic population protests. And they are afraid that if they build it anyway, it'll just get set on fire at night...