A floral approach to justice

[Michael]

A floral approach to justice
Can tending flowers prevent criminals from reoffending? Some advocates say yes

Source (http://www.thestar.com/article/528536)

This is very interesting development. I've long argued that Marx's assertion that 'man is a productive animal' is the most important aspect of Marx's thinking. This concept explains why humans who have 'non-productive' lives tend to become anti-social - and conversely, why those who have been anti-social can be rehabilitated through 'gardening'.

This concept has a lot going for it from a purely theoretical perspective. Gardening is EXACTLY the kind of thing we ought to be doing in every prison in the country.

[partofme]

For some reason the link isn't working for me.

[Michael]

For some reason the link isn't working for me.
I just double-checked it. Seems to work just fine. :ummm:

[drgoodtrips]

FWIW, I can read the link without issue.

[partofme]

I just double-checked it. Seems to work just fine. :ummm:

It works now. Maybe my connect was messed up. If evidence suggests that it works then it sounds good although many people are resistant to anything that doesn't seem like pure punishment.

[Michael]

It works now. Maybe my connect was messed up. If evidence suggests that it works then it sounds good although many people are resistant to anything that doesn't seem like pure punishment.
If punishment is the name of the game, why don't we give them the lash?

Or the pillory or the stockade?

[partofme]

If punishment is the name of the game, why don't we give them the lash?

Or the pillory or the stockade?

Many people would say that is a great idea but blame organizations like the A.C.L.U. and what they call the bleeding hearts for it not happening. Personally I think much of this is talk in order to not sound "wimpy" but it is common talk. It is probably more of a reflection of what sounds cool to say then what people really think. Then again there are quite a few angry people out there.

[bug]

Wow!! That's facinating! I would like to hear some long-term results from this one day.

[Americano]

Many people would say that is a great idea but blame organizations like the A.C.L.U. and what they call the bleeding hearts for it not happening. Personally I think much of this is talk in order to not sound "wimpy" but it is common talk. It is probably more of a reflection of what sounds cool to say then what people really think. Then again there are quite a few angry people out there.

The beatings will continue until morale improves?

[Michael]

Many people would say that is a great idea but blame organizations like the A.C.L.U. and what they call the bleeding hearts for it not happening. Personally I think much of this is talk in order to not sound "wimpy" but it is common talk. It is probably more of a reflection of what sounds cool to say then what people really think. Then again there are quite a few angry people out there.
One of the most interesting books I've ever read in my life has to be Michel Foucault's Discipline & Punish - a sociological history of legal punishment.

Absolutely brilliant study of the topic. It is quite interesting to see the way that legal punishment has changed over the centuries. And it is a particularly modern concept (post 1500 AD) to abjure from physical punishments. That is always considered barbaric or medieval. Modern society is built on the idea of imprisionment as punishment itself - and the idea of 'correction' through 'retraining'. Physically attacking the body is absurd in a modern context.

[partofme]

One of the most interesting books I've ever read in my life has to be Michel Foucault's Discipline & Punish - a sociological history of legal punishment.

Absolutely brilliant study of the topic. It is quite interesting to see the way that legal punishment has changed over the centuries. And it is a particularly modern concept (post 1500 AD) to abjure from physical punishments. That is always considered barbaric or medieval. Modern society is built on the idea of imprisionment as punishment itself - and the idea of 'correction' through 'retraining'. Physically attacking the body is absurd in a modern context.

I agree. I think that when it comes down to it most people wouldn't really want to physically punish people especially if they had to witness or take part of it. Much of the talk is a attempt to sound like tough guys.

[Greendruid]

Prisons of the early 20th century, the ones my wife has told me about in Missouri anyway, used to raise their own plants and animals for food and for show/competition even. Prisons were, in fact, some of the best places that one could get a really cheap, really good pair of mules to work one's farmland. My parents-in-law are both employed by the prison system and my mother-in-law still gets things for her garden made by the prisoners (benches, trellises, etc.) I think this approach to productiveness is really a key ingredient to making someone want to live in society at large without bothering anyone else.

[JHC]

My home town had an "Honor Farm" which was a few steps down from the pen. It was a real working farm...and a prison. I knew it as the prison-farm. Whatever. There were many escapes and everyone I ever knew that ended up in the prison farm went on to bigger and better crimes - repeat offenders. Isn't that sad.

I don't know why it didn't work. Perhaps because it was too large scale. Personally, I have always thought that growing things is very good therapy for wayward souls of all kinds. There is nothing quite like the realization that you can have a real, direct, positive affect on life.

Punishment is only effective in rehabilitation if it comes alongside incentive and direction etc... Just like raising kids. OR, for the victims which, I think, does more harm that good but thats just me.

[Michael]

My home town had an "Honor Farm" which was a few steps down from the pen. It was a real working farm...and a prison. I knew it as the prison-farm. Whatever. There were many escapes and everyone I ever knew that ended up in the prison farm went on to bigger and better crimes - repeat offenders. Isn't that sad.

I don't know why it didn't work. Perhaps because it was too large scale. Personally, I have always thought that growing things is very good therapy for wayward souls of all kinds. There is nothing quite like the realization that you can have a real, direct, positive affect on life.

Punishment is only effective in rehabilitation if it comes alongside incentive and direction etc... Just like raising kids. OR, for the victims which, I think, does more harm that good but thats just me.
I think the difference here might be the difference between 'gardening' which is a personally productive thing and 'farm-labor' which is not. Farm-labor is just like factory labor. You do what you are told - no more, no less.

Gardening is all about YOU managing your own little piece of turf. I think that is the key difference in this kind of 'prison-therapy'.

[Americano]

US prison labor has become a very lucrative industry for the private sector, well-supported by the increasingly privatized prison industry. Labor costs are so low it unfortunately drives many small entities out of business due to their having to pay market rates.

[JHC]

US prison labor has become a very lucrative industry for the private sector, well-supported by the increasingly privatized prison industry. Labor costs are so low it unfortunately drives many small entities out of business due to their having to pay market rates.

You betcha. Even lower wages than illegal immigrants, the captive prison population is free wages AND the public pays for 100% of food, shelter, clothing, and health care, AND we apparently fail to rehabilitate successfully. What a nightmare. Even modern slavery is less damaging economically. (What a grim thought, ugh).

[JHC]

I think the difference here might be the difference between 'gardening' which is a personally productive thing and 'farm-labor' which is not. Farm-labor is just like factory labor. You do what you are told - no more, no less.

Gardening is all about YOU managing your own little piece of turf. I think that is the key difference in this kind of 'prison-therapy'.

Yes, that's what I meant when I said it was probably too big. Although, they were responsible for the horses directly and that was a good thing for those select prisoners that were allowed to ride.

They really need to have personal attachment.

[Americano]

You betcha. Even lower wages than illegal immigrants, the captive prison population is free wages AND the public pays for 100% of food, shelter, clothing, and health care, AND we apparently fail to rehabilitate successfully. What a nightmare. Even modern slavery is less damaging economically. (What a grim thought, ugh).

I remember reading a series of articles about prison labor while living in Nevada. They are paid, under $1/hr, and prison officials rationalized the claims of unfair competition by private entities using the 'we're teaching them trades' with a slow shuffle to no further comment.

[SMadsen]

Many people would say that is a great idea but blame organizations like the A.C.L.U. and what they call the bleeding hearts for it not happening. Personally I think much of this is talk in order to not sound "wimpy" but it is common talk. It is probably more of a reflection of what sounds cool to say then what people really think. Then again there are quite a few angry people out there.
They should try gardening.