Buying a computer

[evanescence]

Does anyone have any suggestions? I bought a computer from Vision a couple of years ago, and I am very unimpressed.

[WFCY]

What do u need it for?

also, laptop or desktop?

[Michael]

What do u need it for?

also, laptop or desktop?

Yeah... what he said! :agree:

[evanescence]

Sorry for not be specific enough. I need a desktop for school/business; and music. Hopefully, I can ban my husband from playing computer games on it. :lol:

[Michael]

Sorry for not be specific enough. I need a desktop for school/business; and music. Hopefully, I can ban my husband from playing computer games on it. :lol:

Get a Mac! (Mac's suck for gaming but otherwise are pretty damn good machines) :D

But if you are on a budget, forget Mac because they are always twice the price for the same power. Desktop systems are definitely the cheapest and the most durable. Laptops are convenient, but they are comparatively expensive and fragile - you can guarentee that your Laptop will crash eventually (usually about three years) and you will lose everything on it unless you spend big money on recovery or have offline copies.

Right now, one can get powerful PC desktop systems for about $600.

[The Drunk Girl]

I would check out Dell's website. Our newest laptop, that we got back in the spring we caught on sale and saved quite a bit of money. By the time we added extra memory (or whatever it is. I am slow on the whole gig and RAM bit), MS Office, and a portable hard drive, the total was a little more than what the laptop was originally priced at! I have become a fan of theirs since meeting TDGuy...he owned a Dell when we first met around 5 years ago. I broke the screen on it a few years back... We currently have it hooked up to our television and it runs a whole hell of a lot better than the Toshiba we got in 08

[WFCY]

Sorry for not be specific enough. I need a desktop for school/business; and music. Hopefully, I can ban my husband from playing computer games on it. :lol:

this shouldn't be hard. u only need like 300 bucks to get a basic box and make sure it has no graphic cards in it (so he cannot play games). Get about 500G hard drive and 2GB ram, any spec on the CPU will do. AMD are usually cheaper. And tbh, any brand will do too, it's only when you get to the high ends they show differences, with your needs, all the basic boxes are the same. Just pay attention to the customer service reviews and get one with good service and warrenty.

Don't get Macs, they are overpriced for the purpose u want it for.

Unless you want to watch movies on it, then you need to up the CPU and graphic card a notch.

[Zarquon]

I'll be needing a "high-performance/desktop replacement" laptop as well, as my current Hp Pavilion is almost three years old and very run-down(its display adapter has been very buggy from the beginning).
I plan on buying one when I come to the US, as the prices in India are twice as much, while the products are about 6 months behind.
Any suggestions?

[WFCY]

I'll be needing a "high-performance/desktop replacement" laptop as well, as my current Hp Pavilion is almost three years old and very run-down(its display adapter has been very buggy from the beginning).
I plan on buying one when I come to the US, as the prices in India are twice as much, while the products are about 6 months behind.
Any suggestions?

http://www.notebookreview.com/

is a good place to start. U go to a local Best Buy, look at some of the ones u like, go home, look up its review.

If you want a gaming platform, pay attention to the graphic card and the heat. Overheating is a big problem for most gaming laptops, cause all the high performance stuff are tightly packed together- you might be able to play some high end games on ur new shiny but as soon as it reaches 50 degrees everything starts to lag and soon you will have an emergency shutdown. The specs on these things might be impressive, but once they heat up, they all work like crap, and they heat up quick. So make sure you get one that has good cooling system, or at least pay much attention to this aspect in reviews.

Oh and go with nVidia, ATI is crap and conflict with a lot of softwares and games for some reason.

As far as CPU and RAM goes, the newer the better ofc, it's just how much money u r willing to spend. Pay attnetion to bus speed (FSB) on the CPU. They tend to impact the performance more than the clock speed, more often than not.

[Zarquon]

http://www.notebookreview.com/

is a good place to start. U go to a local Best Buy, look at some of the ones u like, go home, look up its review.

If you want a gaming platform, pay attention to the graphic card and the heat. Overheating is a big problem for most gaming laptops, cause all the high performance stuff are tightly packed together- you might be able to play some high end games on ur new shiny but as soon as it reaches 50 degrees everything starts to lag and soon you will have an emergency shutdown. The specs on these things might be impressive, but once they heat up, they all work like crap, and they heat up quick. So make sure you get one that has good cooling system, or at least pay much attention to this aspect in reviews.

Oh and go with nVidia, ATI is crap and conflict with a lot of softwares and games for some reason.

As far as CPU and RAM goes, the newer the better ofc, it's just how much money u r willing to spend. Pay attnetion to bus speed (FSB) on the CPU. They tend to impact the performance more than the clock speed, more often than not.
I appreciate the advice and the link (btw mine is a hp pavilion 6500 with nvidia, and yet graphics card been crashing from the start, driver up-dates and re-boots be damned).

[Michael]

I always have nVidia graphics cards on my home computer with as much RAM as possible.

For what its worth, I also always avoid HP like the plague. I'd never buy any HP machine (computer or printer).

[evanescence]

this shouldn't be hard. u only need like 300 bucks to get a basic box and make sure it has no graphic cards in it (so he cannot play games). Get about 500G hard drive and 2GB ram, any spec on the CPU will do. AMD are usually cheaper. And tbh, any brand will do too, it's only when you get to the high ends they show differences, with your needs, all the basic boxes are the same. Just pay attention to the customer service reviews and get one with good service and warrenty.

Don't get Macs, they are overpriced for the purpose u want it for.

Unless you want to watch movies on it, then you need to up the CPU and graphic card a notch.

I usually watch Netflix movies on my current computer. This computer has crashed at least five times so far in two years. Terrible.

Does anyone know of a place to buy used computers that are still under warranty? I had heard that some places sell computers much cheaper because a customer opens the box, and then sends the computer back in basically the same condition, but the company has to sell the computer as used, for example.

[Americano]

I appreciate the advice and the link (btw mine is a hp pavilion 6500 with nvidia, and yet graphics card been crashing from the start, driver up-dates and re-boots be damned).

I'd wager your new residence will have adequate geeks ready to provide knowledgeable advice based on your personal requirements. Serious gamers know this subject as part of life. Make friends and sort them out later.

[The Drunk Girl]

Zarquon, check out your school's financial aid office and see if they offer a grant for computers. I am pretty sure I have seen at the school I attend where students can receive up to a $1000 for that purpose. It might have something to do with FAFSA, but it still wouldn't hurt to ask.

[evanescence]

Zarquon, check out your school's financial aid office and see if they offer a grant for computers. I am pretty sure I have seen at the school I attend where students can receive up to a $1000 for that purpose. It might have something to do with FAFSA, but it still wouldn't hurt to ask.

That sounds nice. I've never noticed such a thing at my school.

[Zarquon]

Zarquon, check out your school's financial aid office and see if they offer a grant for computers. I am pretty sure I have seen at the school I attend where students can receive up to a $1000 for that purpose. It might have something to do with FAFSA, but it still wouldn't hurt to ask.
As an international student I'm ineligible for any aid(save a scholarship I didn't qualify for); however, I believe I'lll be able to purchase software and stuff at a student discount (not the kind of software one would purchase, mostly MS crap).
I'm looking to purchase a dell laptop as well.
And also an iPod and a Kindle.

[Michael]

As an international student I'm ineligible for any aid(save a scholarship I didn't qualify for); however, I believe I'lll be able to purchase software and stuff at a student discount (not the kind of software one would purchase, mostly MS crap).
I'm looking to purchase a dell laptop as well.
And also an iPod and a Kindle.

I was going to say that if pricetags aren't you're most important consideration (and that list says it isn't!), then I'd recommend Dell specifically for laptops or even a desktop. They aren't usually the cheapest out there, but they do have a pretty decent reputation for quality, service and warranties.

[evanescence]

Vision Computers has the absolute worst customer service EVER..bar none.

[Americano]

We have a five year old Dell desktop. One HD failure in the first year, bought the three year service plan and replacement took about four days. Dell has long been a 'Menu' vendor, one can customize any unit for application requirements.

Memory (max), data storage and video card are the important considerations. If one is lost with the technical side and doesn't have time to research it, find an oracle.

[evanescence]

:lol: ok?

My last computer was a Dell Laptop and it lasted through five years of lots of moving and wear and tear. Great machine.

[Michael]

We have a five year old Dell desktop. One HD failure in the first year, bought the three year service plan and replacement took about four days. Dell has long been a 'Menu' vendor, one can customize any unit for application requirements.
I always buy my computers 'menu' style from a electronics stores in Chinatown here in Toronto. They will build custom machines while you wait, or next day and are about half the price of advertised brands like Dell or HP.

All these shops have their own service desk. If one has a problem, just bring the computer back to them and they will fix it or replace it on the spot.

Memory (max), data storage and video card are the important considerations. If one is lost with the technical side and doesn't have time to research it, find an oracle.
For desktop computers, it is all about the video card (and video RAM) - particularly for graphic applications and/or gaming. For laptops, as WFCY pointed out above, performance is all about heating/cooling.

[Americano]

I always buy my computers 'menu' style from a electronics stores in Chinatown here in Toronto. They will build custom machines while you wait, or next day and are about half the price of advertised brands like Dell or HP.

All these shops have their own service desk. If one has a problem, just bring the computer back to them and they will fix it or replace it on the spot.

Other than my wife's, I've long bought my desktops from local shops and then off the Internet. I don't particularly care about service as I'm capable of choosing and changing components and from my spreadsheet days I always get whatever RAM the MB can handle.

For desktop computers, it is all about the video card (and video RAM) - particularly for graphic applications and/or gaming. For laptops, as WFCY pointed out above, performance is all about heating/cooling.

I fortunately haven't required or owned a laptop in ten years. I'm not a gamer but as a proponent of too much is normally better than not enough do use high-end video cards.

[Lily]

I always buy my computers 'menu' style from a electronics stores in Chinatown here in Toronto. They will build custom machines while you wait, or next day and are about half the price of advertised brands like Dell or HP.

All these shops have their own service desk. If one has a problem, just bring the computer back to them and they will fix it or replace it on the spot.


For desktop computers, it is all about the video card (and video RAM) - particularly for graphic applications and/or gaming. For laptops, as WFCY pointed out above, performance is all about heating/cooling.


I haven't purchased a store brand desktop in years. Computer geek friends have built mine and we've ordered ala carte online. The guy who built the box I have now moved away, so when my CPU fan burned out, I had to find a local store. Turned out to be fortuitous, because they will do what you've described, Michael, which is nice.

[Zarquon]

I'm tempted to buy a 13.1" Apple MacBook Pro, because of its good battery life, portability, and the student discount scheme in which I could get an 8GB iPod Touch free.
What do y'all think?

[Michael]

I'm tempted to buy a 13.1" Apple MacBook Pro, because of its good battery life, portability, and the student discount scheme in which I could get an 8GB iPod Touch free.
What do y'all think?

MacBook Pro a fairly good product.

Personally, I avoid Mac-anything for the same reason I won't buy a BMW. I just don't like large numbers of strangers assuming I'm an idiot or asshole (or that technology is a fashion statement). I'm not an Apple-Droid. Once you get to USA you will meet Apple-droids and then you will understand why I don't want to own any Apple product. :D

[Americano]

MacBook Pro a fairly good product.

Personally, I avoid Mac-anything for the same reason I won't buy a BMW. I just don't like large numbers of strangers assuming I'm an idiot or asshole (or that technology is a fashion statement). I'm not an Apple-Droid. Once you get to USA you will meet Apple-droids and then you will understand why I don't want to own any Apple product. :D

Same here.

[drgoodtrips]

I'm tempted to buy a 13.1" Apple MacBook Pro, because of its good battery life, portability, and the student discount scheme in which I could get an 8GB iPod Touch free.
What do y'all think?

If you're on a budget, Apple might not be the way to go, even with a free accessory. In tech circles, you have to pay what is colloquially known as the "Apple Tax" which is essentially a luxury brand markup. You get less bang for your buck with an Apple.

That said, I believe that a lot more university students are having good luck with Apple computers and there are a lot fewer document compatibility problems. If I were a fulltime student, I'd probably look for a cheapie netbook running Linux, but that might not be for everyone.

[drgoodtrips]

In terms of brands of computer, I don't think that the name/logo on the box is nearly as important as it used to be. Components have become increasingly modular and very few in the PC world actually manufacture their own hardware. You have a motherboard made by one of a few companies, a graphics card by nVidia, a chip by intel, and so on and so forth. Who assembles them? Who cares? The main thing that I would look for if I were going to buy a computer out of the box is how their customer service is and what the manufacturer warranty is like.*

The newest computer I have is a netbook I bought because I needed it while I was traveling for work. It's an Asus, which doesn't exactly ring in high on the ratings chart, but I have no issues with the device. I use it to dual boot Windows and Linux since its specs are too paltry to virtualize. Besides that, I have about 8 computers at home, all varying in age between 7 and 15 years. A couple of Dells, a couple of Gateways, a couple of HP's, and some I don't honestly remember. All failures that I have fixed have been components not made by those manufacturers. And, since I don't bother with tech support, it doesn't make a lick of difference to me who made them.

Personally, my next computer will be one that I assemble from parts, but that probably isn't for everyone. It's geek taboo to say this, but that proposition is becoming less and less of a money-saver as the margins on computers grow smaller. I would say that for your average consumer who doesn't like to tinker, building your own isn't worth it and paying someone to do it isn't either.

*Edit: Also worth noting is the amount of crapware installed by those manufacturers and how hard it is to remove. That's another big differentiation.

[drgoodtrips]

I just discovered something interesting today. Since I found out that Civilization V is going to require more hardware than my best PC currently has, I started looking at components and machines in general. What I discovered is that it has now become more expensive to build your own PC than to buy one off the shelf in many cases. I found instances where a brand new i7 processor with 8+ gigs of memory and 1TB hard drive can be had for under a thousand dollars. Just as a point of reference, off the top of my head and google finger:

i7 processor and supporting motherboard: $400-$500
8 gig memory: $200-$300
1 TB hard drive: $50-$100
OS: $100

So, without any video card, chassis, CD/DVD drive, USB or Firewire, networking, or anything else, we're already up to a bare minimum of $750. That's amazing to me, quite frankly. The margins on out of the box PC's have gotten so narrow that they're dispensing altogether with the markups and can undercut me for building my own with bulk purchasing of components.

I've long held the position that I wouldn't bother buying a desktop machine in the future (I sometimes cobble together Frankenboxes with old parts and figured I'd just buy all my own parts and do the same with any upgrade). I'm not so sure now, though. I mean, I like DIY and I get a lot more control over the components this way, but it seems to make no sense to pay an extra few hundred dollars for the "privilege" of spending a day assembling a machine, screwing with heat sinks, power supplies and grounding myself.

Strange times... I never thought I'd see this.

[Michael]

I just discovered something interesting today. Since I found out that Civilization V is going to require more hardware than my best PC currently has...
CivV??? Wow!

I didn't like Civ3 or Civ4. Real pity that. Believe it or not, I still have great pleasure playing Civ2, though I only play Scenarios (mostly WW2).

I've long held the position that I wouldn't bother buying a desktop machine in the future (I sometimes cobble together Frankenboxes with old parts and figured I'd just buy all my own parts and do the same with any upgrade). I'm not so sure now, though. I mean, I like DIY and I get a lot more control over the components this way, but it seems to make no sense to pay an extra few hundred dollars for the "privilege" of spending a day assembling a machine, screwing with heat sinks, power supplies and grounding myself.

Strange times... I never thought I'd see this.
Yes, it does seem counter-intuitive, but the same rule applies to cars - it is way cheaper to buy 'pre-built' cars than to assemble a new one yourself. Same rule seems to apply to most electronic items it seems. :shrug:

[drgoodtrips]

CivV??? Wow!

I didn't like Civ3 or Civ4. Real pity that. Believe it or not, I still have great pleasure playing Civ2, though I only play Scenarios (mostly WW2).

I believe it. I enjoyed all of the games, and I seem to recall enjoying Civ 2 a lot. I recently thought idly about seeing if I could emulate Civ I or Civ II on my phone. :D


Yes, it does seem counter-intuitive, but the same rule applies to cars - it is way cheaper to buy 'pre-built' cars than to assemble a new one yourself. Same rule seems to apply to most electronic items it seems. :shrug:

I guess that may just happen once the electronic item achieves a certain level of ubiquity. Computers have gone from luxury item for the affluent to "keep up with the Jones" item for the middle class to essential for day-to-day life. As such, the margins go down and mass production (and thus economies of scale) ramps up.

(Of course, you're much more the econ guy than me, so correct me if I my take here is wrong)

[Michael]

I guess that may just happen once the electronic item achieves a certain level of ubiquity. Computers have gone from luxury item for the affluent to "keep up with the Jones" item for the middle class to essential for day-to-day life. As such, the margins go down and mass production (and thus economies of scale) ramps up.

(Of course, you're much more the econ guy than me, so correct me if I my take here is wrong)
That's exactly the game - economies of scale. Once industry competitively starts ramping up production, the price point starts falling fast. Plasma tv's are a good example of this.

A lot has to do with corporate control though. I recall seeing a study once that showed that a $10,000 car would cost $27,000 if you just purchased all the parts separately.

[dilettante]

CivV??? Wow!

I didn't like Civ3 or Civ4. Real pity that. Believe it or not, I still have great pleasure playing Civ2, though I only play Scenarios (mostly WW2).


I believe it. I enjoyed all of the games, and I seem to recall enjoying Civ 2 a lot. I recently thought idly about seeing if I could emulate Civ I or Civ II on my phone. :D


I'm really curious to see how Civ V turns out. The elimination of giant stacks of units and the implementation of true "ranged" combat (shooting over multiple squares...er, hexes) seems like it will change the tactical side of things significantly.

Having Civ on my phone though...that sounds like the death of all productivity. :)

[Michael]

I'm really curious to see how Civ V turns out. The elimination of giant stacks of units and the implementation of true "ranged" combat (shooting over multiple squares...er, hexes) seems like it will change the tactical side of things significantly.

Having Civ on my phone though...that sounds like the death of all productivity. :)

Interestingly enough, Civ2 Scenarios don't seem to suffer from the AI stacking issue. I'm not sure why/how this is so, but it really improves the quality of the game.

And on a state of the art computer, circa 1995 game software runs really really fast! :lol:

[evanescence]

We're thinking of building our next computer. I have no idea where to start.

[Michael]

We're thinking of building our next computer. I have no idea where to start.
You can start with reading drgoodtrips' post in this thread. :D

In other words, the best value for money these days is to buy a machine, not make one.

[drgoodtrips]

We're thinking of building our next computer. I have no idea where to start.

If you're doing it to save money, I'd suggest carefully pricing out your components versus buying something comparable off the shelf. Based on a bit of research I did the other day into relative prices, it's quite likely that it will cost you as much or more to build it yourself.

If you're doing it for the love of the game, then I would suggest that you start by deciding which processor chip you want. There's a good amount of information to be had, and there are sites that break down complex notions like L2/L3 cache, cores and FSB into terms that are understandable by those who don't have a processor architecture course or two under their belts. Deciding on the processor then starts a lot of dominoes falling. Processor and motherboard are intricately tied together, but since it takes a special kind of nerd to be a motherboard aficionado, better to pick the processor.

Once you have a motherboard, you can find a chassis that fits it (assuming you're not like me, and content to have piles of computer guts sitting on desks and flopping in the breeze), then you can set about looking for the various other components (drives, memory, cards, etc), making sure they're all compatible with your motherboard. As long as they are, it's really just ala carte customization from there.

A couple of things that most people wouldn't consider off the top that you might want to bear in mind:

- There are different mechanisms for hooking components to your motherboard, including drives and cards (IDE, SATA, etc). This is something that you might want to have a preference for before you start the process.
- Cooling. Your CPU generates heat and the more powerful, the more heat. You need to cool it.
- Power supply. Obviously the device needs power, but when spitting out figures about RAM and DVD burning speeds, people often forget to consider this until it's an afterthought.
- Return policies. You're going to order a bunch of components and try to mash them together for a working beast. It's almost a given that you'll order the wrong thing or get a defective one at least once. Don't order from "Bob's going out of business PC parts website". Order from somewhere that you know you can exchange/return.

Anywho, good luck :D

[evanescence]

If you're doing it to save money, I'd suggest carefully pricing out your components versus buying something comparable off the shelf. Based on a bit of research I did the other day into relative prices, it's quite likely that it will cost you as much or more to build it yourself.

If you're doing it for the love of the game, then I would suggest that you start by deciding which processor chip you want. There's a good amount of information to be had, and there are sites that break down complex notions like L2/L3 cache, cores and FSB into terms that are understandable by those who don't have a processor architecture course or two under their belts. Deciding on the processor then starts a lot of dominoes falling. Processor and motherboard are intricately tied together, but since it takes a special kind of nerd to be a motherboard aficionado, better to pick the processor.

Once you have a motherboard, you can find a chassis that fits it (assuming you're not like me, and content to have piles of computer guts sitting on desks and flopping in the breeze), then you can set about looking for the various other components (drives, memory, cards, etc), making sure they're all compatible with your motherboard. As long as they are, it's really just ala carte customization from there.

A couple of things that most people wouldn't consider off the top that you might want to bear in mind:

- There are different mechanisms for hooking components to your motherboard, including drives and cards (IDE, SATA, etc). This is something that you might want to have a preference for before you start the process.
- Cooling. Your CPU generates heat and the more powerful, the more heat. You need to cool it.
- Power supply. Obviously the device needs power, but when spitting out figures about RAM and DVD burning speeds, people often forget to consider this until it's an afterthought.
- Return policies. You're going to order a bunch of components and try to mash them together for a working beast. It's almost a given that you'll order the wrong thing or get a defective one at least once. Don't order from "Bob's going out of business PC parts website". Order from somewhere that you know you can exchange/return.

Anywho, good luck :D

Thanks. The reason we're considering building our own is because we have had such bad luck with our current computer. My husband does like games, but mostly the older ones so that's not much of an issue. I'll let my husband read what you've posted and see what he says. I'm just tired of crappy computers and shitty customer service.

[Michael]

Thanks. The reason we're considering building our own is because we have had such bad luck with our current computer. My husband does like games, but mostly the older ones so that's not much of an issue. I'll let my husband read what you've posted and see what he says. I'm just tired of crappy computers and shitty customer service.
Stay away from big-box chain retailers then. :)

The quality, price and service at my little electronics shops on Spadina Avenue are wonderful. They will make a custom machine for you next day. Half the price of anything at Best Buy.

[evanescence]

Stay away from big-box chain retailers then. :)

The quality, price and service at my little electronics shops on Spadina Avenue are wonderful. They will make a custom machine for you next day. Half the price of anything at Best Buy.

I went with Vision Computers because they had false advertisement claiming to have American customer service. Instead they had Indian customer service people I could hardly understand who only told us to do a "System Restore" EVERY time we called with a problem.

Does anyone know where I could write a negative customer review for Vision Computers that would actually be read and have an impact? I already wrote BBB and that had almost no effect at all.

[Michael]

I went with Vision Computers because they had false advertisement claiming to have American customer service. Instead they had Indian customer service people I could hardly understand who only told us to do a "System Restore" EVERY time we called with a problem.

Does anyone know where I could write a negative customer review for Vision Computers that would actually be read and have an impact? I already wrote BBB and that had almost no effect at all.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/index.htm

[evanescence]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/index.htm

Thanks. I'll check it out. Those pricks ripped me off several times. I want revenege!! :lol:

[Americano]

I went with Vision Computers because they had false advertisement claiming to have American customer service. Instead they had Indian customer service people I could hardly understand who only told us to do a "System Restore" EVERY time we called with a problem.

Does anyone know where I could write a negative customer review for Vision Computers that would actually be read and have an impact? I already wrote BBB and that had almost no effect at all.

I was perfectly comfortable with Dell's service plan, customer service calls handled in India (his English was flawless) with local US hardware replacement. My ISP uses a company in the Philippines for technical assistance and in the times I've used it I have no complaints. Very professional and competent, again perfect English spoken by the tech advisers.

May I ask why you feel revenge is necessary for what you deem inadequate customer service? Why not put it behind you and go forward?

[willssmith]

Check your school's financial aid office, and they are the computers Zarquon to see the offer of a grant. I'm pretty sure where students can get up to $ 1000 to participate in the school for this purpose. the fafsa may be something to do with, but it still wouldn't hurt to ask.