Women in the military

[MeMyselfAndI]

Women in the Russian military (allowed to serve in combat positions since 2006):
http://www.expert.ru/images/russian_reporter/2008/25/rep_55_030_2.jpghttp://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/nnnnttuf/rus.jpghttp://news.pskovonline.ru/images/42292_20080411110208.jpg
(Since 2008, Pskov VDV Airborne Troops Academy has been preparing female officers)

There are now about 95,000 women in the Russian Armed Forces, 8.5% of the total personnel (1,130,000). Most of them still serve in non-combat roles: medical personnel, communications. But there are now female officers. Russia's last female general was and is the first woman in space, Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentina_Tereshkova).

This is a constant debate for us. A lot of people in Russia belief that women should not be in the armed forces: they are mothers, as such they are too valuable and important to risk their lives this way. Personally, I disagree. If a woman wants to help defend their country, they should. It would not be fair to deny them.

I know Western countries, NATO countries, have a lot of women in their armies. How is it perceived in your societies?

[The Drunk Girl]

I am going to guess that the picture of the woman with the stylish belt and looking at herself in a compact is a joke?

[Michael]

There are now about 95,000 women in the Russian Armed Forces, 8.5% of the total personnel (1,130,000). Most of them still serve in non-combat roles: medical personnel, communications. But there are now female officers. Russia's last female general was and is the first woman in space, Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova.

This is a constant debate for us. A lot of people in Russia belief that women should not be in the armed forces: they are mothers, as such they are too valuable and important to risk their lives this way. Personally, I disagree. If a woman wants to help defend their country, they should. It would not be fair to deny them.

I know Western countries, NATO countries, have a lot of women in their armies. How is it perceived in your societies?
First of all, I must point out that Russian women served in combat roles during WW2 (the Great Patriotic War as I understand it is known as in Russia). To the best of my knowledge, they are the first women in our modern era to serve in combat.

Here in Canada, women are allowed to serve in the military in all roles, including combat. There is virtually zero controversy on this topic in Canada and there never has been much argument or discussion about it.

According to Wikipedia, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Israel, Sweden and Switzerland all permit women to serve in military combat positions.

I have no objection to women serving at all in any volunteer-based army, though I might object to the conscription of women (as it is in Israel). I do believe that culture and politics are also important concerns. In Israel's case, one must make allowances for their tiny population and very high demand for defense forces, which necessitates the conscription of women. On the flip-side, I'd be surprised if India or China ever permitted women to serve given that both countries have a massive surplus of available males to serve.

In other words, I think the military letting women in might have a lot to do with the military's need to recruit quality people. In western countries (except only the USA), especially the smaller ones, the military is generally a low status, low paying job or career, and thus allowing the women to serve increases the size/quality of the recruiting pool.

USA seems to still have some restrictions against women serving in direct combat roles, though the US military has huge numbers of women in support roles. Though, I do believe they have women in combat aircraft now - but not in any front-line infantry or Marines though.

I think it is interesting that the list of countries that allow women to serve in combat are pretty much the same countries that allow 'open' homosexuals to serve as well.

Speaking of which, are Russian women allowed to serve in any combat roles now? Your post is unclear on this point and I am always interested in learning more about Russia! :)

[MeMyselfAndI]

I am going to guess that the picture of the woman with the stylish belt and looking at herself in a compact is a joke?

I don't know... :)

A. The uniform was probably designed by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Yudashkin
Thinks he is some fashion genius. The soldiers who are forced to wear his 'work of art' disagree. But the generals like it. Their word matters over the soldiers...

B. Russian women really care about their appearance. My wife spends maybe thirty minutes in front of a mirror before we go out anywhere; and all those diets, particularly after we had our daughter 3 years ago, and she was always worried about her hips... Women here are obsessed with how they look. So, I would not be surprised if a female soldier was making herself up while standing in the line...

[MeMyselfAndI]

I think it is interesting that the list of countries that allow women to serve in combat are pretty much the same countries that allow 'open' homosexuals to serve as well.

Oh, haha that's not even discussed over here... :rolleyes: Moscow Mayor says they are 'satanic sodomites' or something of that sort. Has banned their Pride marches consistently since USSR fell apart (before, it was a crime to even be a homosexualist).

Thanks for reply, very interesting. I know about women in Great War. My own grandmother was a partisanka (female insurgent/guerilla fighter) :)

[Donkey]

If we have to have organized military, I have seen no convincing arguments to discriminate between men and women. As for combat/non-combat... the way modern warfare seems to work, that distinction is becoming less and less relevant.

[MeMyselfAndI]

If we have to have organized military, I have seen no convincing arguments to discriminate between men and women. As for combat/non-combat... the way modern warfare seems to work, that distinction is becoming less and less relevant.

Agreed. In US, women serve on submarines now :) Great. Sure wish was true here... 2 years, vast majority of time underwater, in a huge iron coffin, surrounded by men only...

[Greendruid]

Here in Canada, women are allowed to serve in the military in all roles, including combat. There is virtually zero controversy on this topic in Canada and there never has been much argument or discussion about it.

I was under the impression that the one role that women were not allowed in was combat jet fighters and that this has to do with the limitations of average male and female bodily differences. The main one being that in order to be a jet fighter pilot one has to have the type of body that can withstand the pulling of several Gs of gravity without blacking out and then be able to control the jet reasonably well. Women and thin men don't do well at this particularly difficult strain on the body apparently. It may just be that my ideas on this have been misinformed by our patriarchal society though :)

[Donkey]

I was under the impression that the one role that women were not allowed in was combat jet fighters and that this has to do with the limitations of average male and female bodily differences. The main one being that in order to be a jet fighter pilot one has to have the type of body that can withstand the pulling of several Gs of gravity without blacking out and then be able to control the jet reasonably well. Women and thin men don't do well at this particularly difficult strain on the body apparently. It may just be that my ideas on this have been misinformed by our patriarchal society though :)
You have the answer right there in your post I believe.

I don't believe that there are not women who can do the job. So don't ban all women. Have standards, sure, but not arbitrary restrictions.

[Greendruid]

You have the answer right there in your post I believe.

I don't believe that there are not women who can do the job. So don't ban all women. Have standards, sure, but not arbitrary restrictions.

I'm well aware of the sexual dimorphism of our species my friend! I was seeking clarification about the military rules surrounding this, not the real capabilities of men and women. I can also tell you that the sexual dimorphism of our species is about 1.08 depending on the population you look at and that this is directly representative of our sexual selection moreso than anything else. But concerning the ability to fly jets, the military will always have its rules regardless of the truth of capability in any task, regardless.

[Donkey]

Well fuck 'em. I'm drinking.

[The Drunk Guy]

Is service still required in Russia? I know back when I hung out with Russian students (2001), one of the Chechen guys had just got out and was pissed because he hated it.

If it is required, is it required of women?

[Margot]

I was under the impression that the one role that women were not allowed in was combat jet fighters and that this has to do with the limitations of average male and female bodily differences. The main one being that in order to be a jet fighter pilot one has to have the type of body that can withstand the pulling of several Gs of gravity without blacking out and then be able to control the jet reasonably well. Women and thin men don't do well at this particularly difficult strain on the body apparently. It may just be that my ideas on this have been misinformed by our patriarchal society though :)

When I was still in high school I briefly thought about joining the RAAF. My grandad flew with the RAAF in Korea, and I thought it would be neat to be a third generation pilot returning to the military and yadda yadda yadda. I'm an inch (maybe it was two?) too short and skinny to fly any aircraft in pretty much any military anywhere. I was willing to gain the weight, but they just don't make ejection seats for people who are 5'2".

After I learned that, there was no reason for me to ever think about the military again. If I can't fly a C-130 I just don't care.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Is service still required in Russia? I know back when I hung out with Russian students (2001), one of the Chechen guys had just got out and was pissed because he hated it.

If it is required, is it required of women?

It is requiered for men only. Women serve as volunteers.

[The Drunk Girl]

When I was still in high school I briefly thought about joining the RAAF. My grandad flew with the RAAF in Korea, and I thought it would be neat to be a third generation pilot returning to the military and yadda yadda yadda. I'm an inch (maybe it was two?) too short and skinny to fly any aircraft in pretty much any military anywhere. I was willing to gain the weight, but they just don't make ejection seats for people who are 5'2".

After I learned that, there was no reason for me to ever think about the military again. If I can't fly a C-130 I just don't care.

I would love to hear the commentary of you flying one of those.

[Americano]

Agreed. In US, women serve on submarines now :) Great. Sure wish was true here... 2 years, vast majority of time underwater, in a huge iron coffin, surrounded by men only...

That's a new policy change yet to be implemented. It received almost as much resistance as homosexuals being allowed to openly serve in the military, but even the Christians couldn't block it with their claims of sin.

[Michael]

When I was still in high school I briefly thought about joining the RAAF. My grandad flew with the RAAF in Korea, and I thought it would be neat to be a third generation pilot returning to the military and yadda yadda yadda. I'm an inch (maybe it was two?) too short and skinny to fly any aircraft in pretty much any military anywhere. I was willing to gain the weight, but they just don't make ejection seats for people who are 5'2".

After I learned that, there was no reason for me to ever think about the military again. If I can't fly a C-130 I just don't care.

When I was in high school, I was accepted at the Royal Canadian Military College for a degree in military and strategic studies (that's the beginning of the 'general officer' training track). I backed out the day before basic training.

If I didn't I'd probaby be a Rear Admiral right now. :D

[Americano]

When I was in high school, I was accepted at the Royal Canadian Military College for a degree in military and strategic studies (that's the beginning of the 'general officer' training track). I backed out the day before basic training.

If I didn't I'd probaby be a Rear Admiral right now. :D

You'd never have been allowed to post on USPO. It recognizes only enlisted military, preferably from cannon fodder ranks, for their declared knowledge of history, strategic matters and geopolitics.

[Michael]

You'd never have been allowed to post on USPO. It recognizes only enlisted military, preferably from cannon fodder ranks, for their declared knowledge of history, strategic matters and geopolitics.

Blasted French language is what stopped me. I'm hopeless at learning other languages and one is required to be fully bilingual to achieve flag rank in the Canadian military (same goes for Canadian politics).

And if I couldn't achieve flag rank, I wasn't interested in the military as a career. :shrug:

[The Drunk Guy]

Blasted French language is what stopped me. I'm hopeless at learning other languages and one is required to be fully bilingual to achieve flag rank in the Canadian military (same goes for Canadian politics).

And if I couldn't achieve flag rank, I wasn't interested in the military as a career. :shrug:
My draw back was basic training. Working out 12+ hours a day is one thing, but doing that with no smoking, drinking, and fucking? :eek: That shit should be illegal.

[MeMyselfAndI]

You guys have so many barriers to get into military. My friend lives in Canada, in Vancouver, said to me once, there you need university education to be in military. It is funny. Russian military, many soldiers do not know how to read, quite a few cannot write (village boys, you know). But the Generals say: you do not need an education to pull a trigger.

[Michael]

You guys have so many barriers to get into military. My friend lives in Canada, in Vancouver, said to me once, there you need university education to be in military. It is funny. Russian military, many soldiers do not know how to read, quite a few cannot write (village boys, you know). But the Generals say: you do not need an education to pull a trigger.
Your friend in Vancouver is misleading you.

One certainly needs a university degree if you want to be an officer, but not otherwise.

The military will give you all the training you need for your position. Indeed, the military is one of the best ways for young and poor working class people to get good career training. If one is young and fit and has no police record, the military usually never says "no".

There are also programs in Canada for officer cadets where the military will pay for their entire university education (this is a highly competitive program that one has to apply for admission).

[Americano]

In the US criminal felony records were disregarded during enlisted level recruitment for the Iraq War. Government positioned starting enlisted military pay/benefits far above private sector offerings in its quest for cannon fodder. While funding private sector contractors with wealth that allowed them to hire the best of existing military ground forces line personnel. Yet another 'old boys club', women need not apply.