Equality, and Russian North: don't mix.

[MeMyselfAndI]

http://www.pomorcpp.org/insight/print.html?id=1169

<The pomors are one of the native ethnic minorities of the European North of Russia, trying to achieve from The Russian Government to be included into the Unified List of the native ethnic minorities of Russia

The pomors traditionally have been identifying themselves to be as a separate people with their own original distinctive culture, history, language, religion and historical territory of living called Pomorje. However the pomors ethnic identity actually was not researched systematically by the Russian scientists, and in Russia the pomors used to be considered as "Russian subethnos".>

On the other hand, according to Wikipedia,

<Pomors or Pomory (Russian: помо́ры) are Russian settlers and their descendants on the White Sea coast. It is also term of self-identification for the descendants of Russian, primarily Novgorod, settlers of Pomorje (Pomorie, Pomor'e, Russian North), living on the White Sea coasts and the territory whose southern border lies on a watershed which separates the White Sea river basin from the basins of rivers that flow south.>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomors

Pomor people:
http://www.tersky.ru/newimages/tersky/pomor_costume_b.jpg
http://img0.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1004453.900.buasbdrfcr/Jakob+Mikkelsen+and+Suzjomje_400x300.jpg
http://pomorland.narod.ru/img/0001.jpg
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/h/hwan_d_i/ushedshie2/117.jpg

Their official web site (in Russian only, for now at least, sorry): http://pomorland.narod.ru/

So, they are a sub-ethnos. In Rusian 'pomor' means 'person who lives near the sea'. But, like, for example, the Cossacks, in the South, who are also, technically, 'descendants' of all sorts of weird people, the Pomors want to be recognized as a nation. But not just as a nation. As a Malyi Narod Severa, Small Nation of the North. The Small Nations, such as Nency, Khanty, Mansi, Komi, Eveny, Chukchi, and others, have status, as aboriginal titular nations on their land. They have autonomy, in their Autonomous Okrugs/Districts (and even a 'Republic' for the more numerous Komi). But most importantly, they have unique fishing and hunting rights for their area. Pomor fishermen have been sitting out of business for a long time, they've only got the worst spots, where, often enough, there is no fish at all. Their neighbors, the Nency, are thriving, because they are a recognized Small Nation, and their fishing boats go up and down all those waters. Frankly, I think this is hugely unfair. They are just as native to these parts as the others, and they have their own, unique culture and, arguably, their own sort of language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomor_dialects). They qualify for a nation. What do you guys think? My father is a Pomor. This is an injustice...

[Non Sequitur]

It does seem to some kind of problem at the very least. However, this line from the Wikipedia page is interesting:
During the 2002 Census, it was possible for respondents to identify themselves as "Pomors", this group being tabulated by the census as a subgroup of the Russian ethnicity. However, merely 6,571 persons did so, almost all of them in Arkhangelsk Oblast (6,295) and Murmansk Oblast

Not that numbers should effect rights, but I'd be interested in your opinion on that.

I must admit, this is a subject which I have no clue about. Should be interesting to read more.

[The Drunk Guy]

I was just researching the autonomous districts in Russia the other day. Very interesting subject. However, it seems that most of the existing autonomous areas simply remained so after the collapse of the CCCP. As far as developing a new autonomous region, I have no idea if that is even a current policy.

I suppose I would start by finding out how autonomy can be achieved and then help get the folks started in whatever process that would be. :shrug:

[Greendruid]

In contrast to this issue, it takes a total of only 500 speakers of an indigenous language to have the culture officially given status for Aboriginal groups/First Nations in the United States. That's Native Americans for our American readers. This is one of the reasons why there are no reservations in all of Missouri, you know, the state named for the Missouria-Oto peoples.

The number of Pomors in Russia would be considered a major indigenous group under American legislation, not to mention Canadian population rules as well. We don't have the 500 speakers rule here but we do have status marriage and cultural inheritance laws.

[MeMyselfAndI]

It does seem to some kind of problem at the very least. However, this line from the Wikipedia page is interesting:


Not that numbers should effect rights, but I'd be interested in your opinion on that.

I must admit, this is a subject which I have no clue about. Should be interesting to read more.

Well, there are only 8743 Koryaks on Kamchatka, yet they are recognized as a people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryaks).

And there are only about 16000 Chukchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukchi_people), but they even get their own Chukotka Autonomous Okrug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukotka_Autonomous_Okrug).

In contrast to this issue, it takes a total of only 500 speakers of an indigenous language to have the culture officially given status for Aboriginal groups/First Nations in the United States. That's Native Americans for our American readers. This is one of the reasons why there are no reservations in all of Missouri, you know, the state named for the Missouria-Oto peoples.

The number of Pomors in Russia would be considered a major indigenous group under American legislation, not to mention Canadian population rules as well. We don't have the 500 speakers rule here but we do have status marriage and cultural inheritance laws.

Exactly.

[Michael]

Is there any reason that the Russian government might have some past 'issues' with the Pomors?

In other words, if the Pomer's allied with the Finns in WW2 (for example), the Russian government might not be too happy about the Pomors and seek to 'punish' them by not recognizing them.

I'm just speculating, I don't know anything about the Pomors, or Russian government relations with indigenous ethnic groups.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Is there any reason that the Russian government might have some past 'issues' with the Pomors?

In other words, if the Pomer's allied with the Finns in WW2 (for example), the Russian government might not be too happy about the Pomors and seek to 'punish' them by not recognizing them.

I'm just speculating, I don't know anything about the Pomors, or Russian government relations with indigenous ethnic groups.

No, nothing like that. The Orthodox Church has some problems with Pomors, because many of them worship in the Old Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomorian_Old-Orthodox_Church), the Dukhobor way.

[Margot]

No, nothing like that. The Orthodox Church has some problems with Pomors, because many of them worship in the Old Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomorian_Old-Orthodox_Church), the Dukhobor way.

Do the others, like the Nency, worship that way?

The way you paint it I'm going to have to agree that this is a complete injustice. I just can't decide whether it's a bureaucratic injustice, or an injustice actively levied against the Pomors, you know? If the government just can't get its shit together then it's one thing, but if it's because someone hates the Pomors that changes the whole tune.

Either way, with what little I know, I'm not seeing any reason why they shouldn't be granted Small Nation status.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Do the others, like the Nency, worship that way?

The way you paint it I'm going to have to agree that this is a complete injustice. I just can't decide whether it's a bureaucratic injustice, or an injustice actively levied against the Pomors, you know? If the government just can't get its shit together then it's one thing, but if it's because someone hates the Pomors that changes the whole tune.

Either way, with what little I know, I'm not seeing any reason why they shouldn't be granted Small Nation status.

The Nency worship spirits, through their shamans.

And, yeah, agree, it is an injustice what the government is doing.

[JHC]

Fascinating. What a beautiful area!

Why is this an issue now?

It looks to me as if the Pomors sort of migrated inland hundreds of years ago. Is that correct? And if it is correct, then have they sort of resettled along the coast and are trying to secure their heritage?

Or is this a matter of urgency because resources (fish) are spread very thinly?

This is really, really interesting and I would love to learn more.

[MeMyselfAndI]

Fascinating. What a beautiful area!

Why is this an issue now?

It looks to me as if the Pomors sort of migrated inland hundreds of years ago. Is that correct? And if it is correct, then have they sort of resettled along the coast and are trying to secure their heritage?

Or is this a matter of urgency because resources (fish) are spread very thinly?

This is really, really interesting and I would love to learn more.

Been an issue for awhile. Came up now because it has become a matter of preserving themselves as a people for Pomors. Because their traditional fishing lifesyle was (and still is, really) dying, a lot of young people left for the big cities, Moscow, Peterburg, to go to university and have a different life there. If this continues, they will not return, they will forget who their people are; their children will grow up in Moscow or Peterburg, without knowledge of their ancestry. And the Pomor nation will die.

[Michael]

...
So, they are a sub-ethnos. In Rusian 'pomor' means 'person who lives near the sea'. But, like, for example, the Cossacks, in the South, who are also, technically, 'descendants' of all sorts of weird people, the Pomors want to be recognized as a nation.

When you say "sub-ethos" what is it a sub-group of?

If Pomors came from Novgorod, does that mean that "Rus" is the "ethos"?

[MeMyselfAndI]

When you say "sub-ethos" what is it a sub-group of?

If Pomors came from Novgorod, does that mean that "Rus" is the "ethos"?

Subgroup of ethnic Russian people. Rus were ancestors of modern Russians (Novgorodian Rus anyway; Kievan Rus were Ukrainians).

[Michael]

Subgroup of ethnic Russian people. Rus were ancestors of modern Russians (Novgorodian Rus anyway; Kievan Rus were Ukrainians).

Okay, that makes sense. :)

[Greendruid]

What about the Evenki and their spiritual beliefs? Don't they also follow their traditional, non-Abrahamic beliefs?

[MeMyselfAndI]

What about the Evenki and their spiritual beliefs? Don't they also follow their traditional, non-Abrahamic beliefs?

Yeah, they are all shamanist/spiritualist. Except for the Finno-Ugric Komi (half of them Lutheran, half Orthodox Christian), and the Pomors. The church has been trying to convert them all, especially the Yakuts, so there are many Orthodox Yakuts now. Evenki btw are not a North nation, I don't think. they live lower, in the taiga, in the forests. The Eveny live up North though, they are the raindeer herders. Often mistaken for the Evenki, names are simialr lol