Eminent Mass Destruction- evolution

[JHC]

Was that dramatic?

I hesitated to put this in the science thread because I think people are afraid of science and also, this involves politics, the environment, the economy, health care, religion and morality.

I'm talking about the evolution of microbial life and our general blissful ignorance.

On the top of my mind today is Mycobacterium tuberculosis. If you couldn't tell by the name, this is the bacteria that causes tuberculosis in humans.
We don't care much about tuberculosis in the US anymore because it's been treatable and as it has been treatable, it has slowly lost it's primary host in the US. Not so in other countries.
Less and less so in the US every day.

Here's my anecdote and I hope it sends shivers down your spine:
In this modern era, going to college means you have to have a computer and you do a lot of school business on it. I get about 6 emails per day from the college notifying me of events on campus, registration information, clubs and what not. You know, the stuff you line up for mass deletion.

I actually pay attention to what office the email is from and about two weeks ago, I noticed that one of my emails was from the Dean of the college. Pretty rare so I opened it.
It said that there had been a confirmed case of active TB reported on our campus. All people who had interaction with this person on campus would be notified in person and be tested. If you didn't get a phone call, you hadn't been in contact with this person.

Well, it isn't a big campus but twice the size of my hometown so I figured I was probably in the clear. Although, I wondered how they would ever know with whom this person had been in contact.

TB is passed through the air. Second to AIDS, it is the leading cause of death by microbes (bacteria and viruses primarily). I bet you didn't know that. The reason that it is so successfully spread is because, unlike most airborne pathogens, the little bastards get coughed up with sputum and then just float in the air or land on surfaces where they last for DAYS.
All you have to do to get TB is breath.

This is not to say that everyone who gets TB becomes immediately contagious. That's actually bad news. The bacteria is completely undetectable for up to two weeks after the host is infected. After that, if the host was pretty healthy to begin with, nothing usually happens except that they carry it around until something else happens and their immune system suffers a set back and then the little bastards come out of their tubercles and head out again.
Imagine how long it takes someone to figure out they have TB when they were actually sick, at first, because they had strep throat or the flu or the common cold. How many people think "gees, I feel like crap but I have finals this week and I really have to go to school"? Or, of course, to work because they are hourly employees or are hanging onto their jobs by a thread and trying to impress the boss.
And maybe one of those folks had latent TB - infected for the past 10 years unknowingly.

But hey, it's okay because, as was done on my campus, you can track down all the likely contacts and test them for TB and then get them on a treatment program. Since they're on campus, they're relatively easy to keep track of.

They found seven more cases on campus as a follow up to this person. Another email came out. This one wasn't from the Dean so it was even less likely to be read. It said that if you were concerned, you could get tested for free at the health department by telling them you were from our campus.

We have some very good medical professionals on the faculty. Lots of Indian immigrants too old to compete with their younger kin in the medical field anymore. They can tell you all about TB because it's still a really big deal in India. In fact, it is such a big deal that they still vaccinate people for TB in India.

Why don't they do that here? Well, because if you've been vaccinated for TB, you will test positive forever and ever. The only way to tell for sure if a person from India has TB is to x-ray their chest. Or ask them and trust them to tell the truth. Who would lie about that?!

This guy: A personal injury lawyer - Mr. Son-in-law of CDC TB specialist who didn't want to interrupt his honeymoon plans. (http://thegoodreverend.blogspot.com/2007/05/tb-airplane-guys-father-in-law-is-cdc.html)
As you read that you may have noticed that they said "a particularly rare resistant form of TB".

Well, it turns out he had a less severe strain so he sued the CDC for leaking his name. And then, he had a big chunk of his lung removed surgically (not by a pissed off fellow passenger which probably should have happened).

Ironically, in the good old days of smoking on airplanes (blechhhh), the air aboard tended to be circulated with fresh air. Now days not so much. It's less fuel efficient and thus more expensive to operate. So all those folks were trapped on board with this guy who knew he was sick and contagious circulating that bacteria through the airplane all over Europe and the US.

The strain they THOUGHT he had was less severe in that it wasn't the "extremely drug resistant" kind, just the "multi drug resistant" kind. That XTD kind is hard to treat. But, there's always hope. If you get the TB they thought he had, chances of successful treatment are 30%. The other 70% are "consumed" ('cause that's what we used to call it - consumption).

I asked my classmates this morning if any of them had been tested for TB. 1/30 knew what I was talking about. She hadn't read either email. Her boyfriend had been tested because he was in the same class with the girl that, it turns out, dropped out in the first semester because she was so sick she couldn't get out of bed anymore. She didn't know she had TB but why did it take all these months to get around to notifying and testing her classmates?
She is still too sick to get out of bed. Treatment takes months or up to a year.

In countries where AIDS is rampant, so is TB. Remember what I said about a weakened immune system? Guess who gets TB more than anyone else. And guess where most of these folks live? In hovels in Africa where they don't get treatment and the disease spreads like wildfire. There is talk of starting up sanatoriums again. There is no other way to confine a disease that kills up to 70% of it's hosts. They're talking about doing it in the states too. Arizona. You know, in case of emergency.

That's just ONE species of ONE bacteria.

Theirs MRSA and the counterpart from S. pyogenes. There's the viruses: H1N1, E.coli O157 H7 and dozens...hundreds of others.

Every year, we have more and more people coming up with diseases like mine (Crohn's), that are diseases of the immune system. Why?
Every two years, an influenza virus strain mutates enough to make it resistant to last years antiviral drugs. Every ten years, an influenza virus makes a giant leap and we run the risk of pandemic. The latest H1N1 was one of those and we got lucky.

Too many people, not enough antibiotics, poor living conditions, extreme poverty, ignorance, and an attitude that says health care is a luxury for the rich and as long as I can't see it, it won't hurt ME. We're really going to get it.

[Margot]

I find it amazing how we always feel like we're so prepared, but we never know what the shit is going on. SARS, H1N1, H5N1, it's all the same story over, and over, and over. We pat our backs and talk about what we'd do in the zombie apocalypse and pretend like we've got the gonads to back up the chutzpah. We diagnose our colds on WebMD and think we've got it covered. We go to school when we're beginning to feel a little down because we really shouldn't be missing it in the first place and then all of the sudden we come home with TB and conjunctivitis (ok, the pink eye hasn't happened in a while, but you know what I mean), and how many others did we just pass that along to?

We have the technology, we have the basic science and the basic understanding, but we don't do anything proactive about it. We are still a fantastically reactive culture. I mean, I know I'm speaking very broadly, but on the whole, how many people here would willingly raise his or her hand and attest that "if shit hits the fan, I'm ready, vaccinated, and raring to go!" Yeah. Didn't think so.

I have friends who go to your school, and who only heard about the TB from me. The way those boys get around I'd be surprised if they hadn't been in contact with it. Matt is about to move to California, if he has it, who will he be giving it to when those little glory-nuggets get active in his lungs?

In the Early Modern era (a time of such classics as "she's a witch!" and "burn some incense, I'm sure that'll cut the bad air right out!") people believed that the human body was porous, like a sponge, and that one could absorb bad things through his or her skin (tangentially, they would put chicken anuses on their buboes and pump the chicken's beak until the thing died, believing that the chicken's body was like a reverse bellows, BUT I DIGRESS). Sure, they had no real science, but they were pretty fucking astute, if you ask me.

And they reacted. Your Arizona sanatoriums are the Lazarettos of old. Sure, we can quarantine people, or wear blue masks, or start up just-in-case places to deal with something.

But it's all still just a reaction.

It isn't a cure for, as you so astutely point to as the problem "Too many people, not enough antibiotics, poor living conditions, extreme poverty, ignorance, and an attitude that says health care is a luxury for the rich and as long as I can't see it, it won't hurt ME. We're really going to get it."

[Lily]

We see about three or four suspected cases of TB in our ER per year. I say "suspected" because until cultures are grown or an assay done, we can't be sure. By that time, the patient has usually been discharged. Of course, these patients are immediately put into negative pressure rooms and all the appropriate Airborne Precautions are taken.

Our hospital quit yearly PPD testing a couple of years ago. I don't know why, money? I recently got tested on my own (negative, thank you), and most of the nurses do the same. Many other workers don't get tested. We're just asking for it.

I'm exposed to all kinds of nasty pathogens every day. I am, at the same time, very conscious of that fact and take precautions, and don't dwell on it. If I thought about it, I'd never go near a patient. MRSA, C-diff, klebseilla, H1N1... all kinds of bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites. C-diff spores, for example, can't be killed with the alcohol hand sanitizers and they live on hard surfaces for days, maybe weeks.

MRSA is a fairly common infection seen in the general population. In the past three years, I've watched this bacteria develop resistance to our frontline antibiotic, Bactrim. More and more patients are coming back with unresolved wounds, or multiple wounds, and some are coming back with the infection having spread systemically. Not good. I would guess a large percentage of hospital workers are colonized with MRSA.

Yes, we have emergency plans for mass outbreaks, but the truth is, every hospital would be overwhelmed if a true deadly epidemic were to occur in the U.S. We would not have the staff, the beds or the meds.

[The Drunk Girl]

We see about three or four suspected cases of TB in our ER per year. I say "suspected" because until cultures are grown or an assay done, we can't be sure. By that time, the patient has usually been discharged. Of course, these patients are immediately put into negative pressure rooms and all the appropriate Airborne Precautions are taken.

Our hospital quit yearly PPD testing a couple of years ago. I don't know why, money? I recently got tested on my own (negative, thank you), and most of the nurses do the same. Many other workers don't get tested. We're just asking for it.

I'm exposed to all kinds of nasty pathogens every day. I am, at the same time, very conscious of that fact and take precautions, and don't dwell on it. If I thought about it, I'd never go near a patient. MRSA, C-diff, klebseilla, H1N1... all kinds of bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites. C-diff spores, for example, can't be killed with the alcohol hand sanitizers and they live on hard surfaces for days, maybe weeks.

MRSA is a fairly common infection seen in the general population. In the past three years, I've watched this bacteria develop resistance to our frontline antibiotic, Bactrim. More and more patients are coming back with unresolved wounds, or multiple wounds, and some are coming back with the infection having spread systemically. Not good. I would guess a large percentage of hospital workers are colonized with MRSA.

Yes, we have emergency plans for mass outbreaks, but the truth is, every hospital would be overwhelmed if a true deadly epidemic were to occur in the U.S. We would not have the staff, the beds or the meds.

Having a PPD has always been mandatory for any job I have had or applied for in the medical field. The last job I had we might have had to pay for it but it wasn't that much and they also paid for the Hep-B. Last year, I opted to get the flu vaccination and didn't jump on getting the H1N1...I ended up with the swine flu. :sad:

Viruses like the common cold and the flu are what I was taught to compare to garbage/junk viruses. They're constantly evolving and picking up and dumping pieces here and there making it hard to have vaccines against them. That always made me scared for some reason.

Every human body is crawling with these microorganisms as part of our normal flora, and if you really think about it we're lucky not to end up with something like necrotizing fascitis :erm:

[JHC]

Thanks for your expert additions Lily and Drunk Girl. Sometimes I feel paranoid.

Look what I found today: Non-Drug Approach Can Slow Spread of Pandemic Flu (http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/SwineFlu/19843)

Really? Washing your hands and sneezing into your elbow helps keep you healthy? He knew?! Crimey.
The real relevance of the article is this:

he researchers, writing in the May issue of the American Journal of Infection Control, called for large intervention studies, conducted over multiple flu seasons, to assess the impacts of such things as handwashing, cough etiquette, and mask wearing.

Research is also needed into the psychosocial and cultural barriers that make some groups reluctant to accept such measures, Aiello and colleagues said, as well as lab studies to pin down how the flu is transmitted.

The data so far, they concluded, "provide some evidence that face masks, hand hygiene, cough etiquette, reduced crowding, and school closures are effective in reducing the spread of influenza."

Well no shit Kemosabe.

[Michael]

Top Physician-Scientists Voice Grave Concern about Stagnant U.S. Global AIDS and TB Funding

Nearly 300 leading U.S. disease experts expressed serious concern about the White House’s inadequate budget request for global AIDS and TB programs, saying the proposed funding levels signal a retreat in the U.S. response to the twin epidemics of HIV and TB.

In a strongly-worded letter sent to members of Congress today, the physician-scientists said the consequences of a pullback in combating HIV and TB in the developing world would be devastating. HIV/AIDS experts, in particular, are concerned that insufficient funding requested by the White House could jeopardize the hard-won gains made in reducing HIV-related mortality, preventing new infections, and providing life-saving treatment and care to millions of HIV-positive patients through the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR).

Source (http://sciencespeaks.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/top-physician-scientists-voice-grave-concern-about-stagnant-u-s-global-aids-and-tb-funding/)

I figured I'd post this since it seems rather relevant to the thread topic. You are all talking about how this problem is rising, yet the US government is cutting back on funding for exactly this kind of stuff.

[The Drunk Girl]

Sometimes I feel paranoid.



Microbiology has a tendency to make one paranoid. You can't help not to become that after you start learning about all the diseases and infections people can get. Not to mention when you start dealing with these microorganisms 2-3 times a week in lab!

Our first day in lab, we took TSA plates and placed them anywhere we wanted in the building. I placed mine on a bookshelf out in the hall. 10-15 minutes passed and all the students retrieved their plates, gave them to the TA, and the plates were incubated. When we returned to class two days later, my plate had some mold growing on it. The next week...four different types of mold were present! I just couldn't believe that all that mold was floating around in the air and everyone was breathing it in. Shew!

[Michael]

Look what I found today: Non-Drug Approach Can Slow Spread of Pandemic Flu (http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/SwineFlu/19843)

Really? Washing your hands and sneezing into your elbow helps keep you healthy? He knew?! Crimey.

Yes, this seems to be a popular form of propaganda. I was annoyed when I saw this being tossed around in the [overblown] run up to the Swine Flu.

Fact is, washing your hands and sneezing into your elbow helps prevent spreading the disease, it doesn't keep you healthy. But our goverments seem to believe if they don't package the idea as "ALL ABOUT YOU" no one will do it.

Sad commentary on the human race - or our governments. I'm not sure which. :shrug:

[JHC]

I don't think the run up to H1N1 was overblown at all. We were lucky.
We all sat around and laughed about countries that were quarantining but they were the only people that were reacting responsibly.
Here in my neck of the woods, before we knew whether or not this thing was going to be something we could handle, we had many cases in grades schools. The first case caused a closure of the school and a super cleaning. Multiple schools followed shortly after and no schools were closed. In fact, since only a few people died, the schools were sending out notices that your kids better show up or their absences would be unexcused.

Also, although sneezing into your elbow doesn't help you personally when you do it, the culturalization of these habits does a lot of good. Washing your hands isn't nearly as beneficial as not breathing in someone else's germs but it certainly helps and goes a long way toward preventing all kinds of other nasty illnesses.
I used to quietly judge people that didn't wash after using the toilet. Now I quietly judge people that don't wash long enough.:rolleyes:

I'll tell you something else that creeps me the hell out is my daughter's high school. They are so preoccupied with behavior problems that they don't let the students use the bathroom. When they do get to use the bathroom, there is never any soap. Then they don't let the students go outside to eat lunch so they're all crammed in the cafeteria with filthy hands, sharing food.

They don't sincerely care about anything except being in control.

[Michael]

This thread is really, really depressing to read. :erm:

[Lily]

This thread is really, really depressing to read. :erm:

Then you really don't want to hear about the overuse of antibiotic soaps, cleaners, detergents, etc., and the overuse of prescribed antibiotics and how those things have helped our little microscopic soldiers make us sick... :lol:

[Michael]

Then you really don't want to hear about the overuse of antibiotic soaps, cleaners, detergents, etc., and the overuse of prescribed antibiotics and how those things have helped our little microscopic soldiers make us sick... :lol:

I think my ability to absorb the data of catastrophe is already on 'maximum' just trying to grasp the dangers of peak oil and climate change (and human political insanity). I just can't comprehend adding another whole 'scary issue' to my awareness. I just don't have enough brain cells to process all that. :shrug:

[JHC]

Then you really don't want to hear about the overuse of antibiotic soaps, cleaners, detergents, etc., and the overuse of prescribed antibiotics and how those things have helped our little microscopic soldiers make us sick... :lol:

I don't worry so much about that. It pales in comparison to the antibiotics we use in pigs, chickens and cattle to keep them fat for slaughter.

Did you know, for instance, that no one knows why specifically, pigs and cattle get fatter if you pump them up with antibiotics and a specific period of time prior to slaughter. That's in addition to the usual antibiotics.

If we didn't raise them the way we do, they wouldn't be so susceptible to infection and thus would not require the antibiotics. In turn, there would be less mutation of the same bacteria that can kill us eventually too. Tons, TONS more antibiotic use in our livestock than using antibacterial soap.

On the other hand, if Asian communities didn't live among their livestock, we wouldn't have such a tough time with viruses. This is why we look to Asia for information about the next most likely flu strain against which we build a stock of immunizations for our own citizens.

For those non-medical types, pigs are susceptible to the same influenza viruses as humans. They are also susceptible to influenza that affects birds. The pigs become a giant mixer full of virus.

Viruses are nearly always made of strands (8) of RNA rather than DNA (except "retro viruses" like those that cause HIV/AIDS). They are never made of both. It's one of the things that leaves the question about whether or not a virus constitutes life.

The thing about RNA is that it has no mechanism of checking and repairing damage during replication. This means that mutations happen at a much higher rate than is possible with DNA.

So the mixer (the swine), collects influenza virus from avians and from Homo sapiens and spreads it back to birds and people. Now you know why "avian" flu and "swine" flu are significant. The virus can be tracked back to it's origin by examining the RNA. Mutations can be measured quite easily - after the fact of course. This is also how it is estimated that the particular strain is related to an outbreak from decades past.

For Michael and Igor:
On the brighter side, Margot brought home The Stand by Steven King. The thrust of the novel is an outbreak of some mystery illness that sweeps across the world killing all but a handful.
Mr. King has one of his characters play the part of the government representative telling lies to the citizens to keep them calm. He says it's a strain of the Russian flu and not as serious as many others.
Indeed, the real Russian flu that gained some notoriety (in the 70's I think), is believed to have been created in a Russian lab and released by accident. That is specifically how the illness in the book gets started - in a US lab.
The Russian flu was not too serious otherwise.

So, that was just a little fun trivia for a really dreary thread.

Also, I have come down with a cold in the past few days. :lol:

[Margot]

Don't forget to wash your thumbs, kids!

[Michael]

Don't forget to wash your thumbs, kids!

Actually, there is something to be said for not washing your thumbs (as it were).

Working on the theory - 'that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger'. I think I picked that one up from Greendruid many years ago.

No 'five-second-rule' for me with food dropped on the floor. If I find popcorn or a potato chip under the couch while cleaing up, I'll eat it, even if I know its been there for a week or three. :shrug:

(I'm a firm believer that humans are the ultimate 'scavenger' species)

[Americano]

Actually, there is something to be said for not washing your thumbs (as it were).

Working on the theory - 'that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger'. I think I picked that one up from Greendruid many years ago.

No 'five-second-rule' for me with food dropped on the floor. If I find popcorn or a potato chip under the couch while cleaing up, I'll eat it, even if I know its been there for a week or three. :shrug:

(I'm a firm believer that humans are the ultimate 'scavenger' species)

You do housecleaning every three weeks? Must be an insect and critter free environment.

[Lily]

I don't worry so much about that. It pales in comparison to the antibiotics we use in pigs, chickens and cattle to keep them fat for slaughter.

Did you know, for instance, that no one knows why specifically, pigs and cattle get fatter if you pump them up with antibiotics and a specific period of time prior to slaughter. That's in addition to the usual antibiotics.

If we didn't raise them the way we do, they wouldn't be so susceptible to infection and thus would not require the antibiotics. In turn, there would be less mutation of the same bacteria that can kill us eventually too. Tons, TONS more antibiotic use in our livestock than using antibacterial soap.

I did know that. I prefer, however, to ignore all of that information while scarfing down my bacon and eggs and my ribeyes. :)


Also, I have come down with a cold in the past few days. :lol:

Steak won't help for a virus. :D

[Michael]

You do housecleaning every three weeks? Must be an insect and critter free environment.

Yes, living 250 feet up in the air, one gets zero bugs. I can leave windows wide open on a summer night with lights on inside, and there will be no bugs. :)

One can set the table for eating outside and leave food sitting there... no bugs.

Alternatively, the dust buildup is unbelievable.

[Americano]

Yes, living 250 feet up in the air, one gets zero bugs. I can leave windows wide open on a summer night with lights on inside, and there will be no bugs. :)

One can set the table for eating outside and leave food sitting there... no bugs.

Alternatively, the dust buildup is unbelievable.

My wife, one of her nicknames being the Cleaning Nazi, claims lawns surrounding the house are what allow us to leave our screened windows open with little dust accumulation. A wise person never questions such an edict and subsequently avoids piercing glances intended to make the questioner feel like dirt.

[evanescence]

We are definitely due for a pandemic of some kind. It statistically happens every century. The last serious pandemic was the Spanish Flu.

[Multiplum]

We are definitely due for a pandemic of some kind. It statistically happens every century. The last serious pandemic was the Spanish Flu.
It really depends.

I find it very likely that we are due for a pandemic. Our hardon for the use of antibiotics, chemical agents like soap and ease of transport makes it very likely that an opportunist, drug-resistant strain of bacteria or virus can hit hard and unexpectedly.

The H1N1 pandemic didn't live up to the more sinister expectations. Unfortunately, perhaps? While the efforts proved that we are getting better at proactively combatting new crowd diseases, the anticlimatic outcome of the H1N1 pandemic could make us more vulnerable the next time around. "Wolf, wolf", and that. Still, technological and scientific advances the last 20 years makes it hard to predict where we'll be in another 20.

[evanescence]

The over use of antibioltics is most damaging, it seems. I have never given my kids antibiotics..yet. When my daughter has gotten sick, I did not take her to the doctor right away, but I try to let her body fight it for a couple of days before considering taking her to the doctor. My son is only 3 months, but he is very healthy. Both of my kids have also been breastfed which is key, I think. Anyhow, with less people breastfeeding, and more people over using antibiotics, things could get worse.

[Multiplum]

The over use of antibioltics is most damaging, it seems. I have never given my kids antibiotics..yet. When my daughter has gotten sick, I did not take her to the doctor right away, but I try to let her body fight it for a couple of days before considering taking her to the doctor. My son is only 3 months, but he is very healthy. Both of my kids have also been breastfed which is key, I think. Anyhow, with less people breastfeeding, and more people over using antibiotics, things could get worse.

Absolutely. What's really unfair is that the overuse of antibiotics won't lead to diseases that discriminate based on who has used more. It's one big collective breeding ground for resistant strains, that, I suspect, eventually will lead to the emergence of a new strain we do not possess means to handle. Kind of like the infinite amount of chimps on typewriters. A naturally healthy immune system can mean nothing when faced with something completely foreign.

Imagine a modern pandemic analogous to the arrival of Eurasian crowd diseases in the new world.

[Michael]

Absolutely. What's really unfair is that the overuse of antibiotics won't lead to diseases that discriminate based on who has used more. It's one big collective breeding ground for resistant strains, that, I suspect, eventually will lead to the emergence of a new strain we do not possess means to handle. Kind of like the infinite amount of chimps on typewriters. A naturally healthy immune system can mean nothing when faced with something completely foreign.

Imagine a modern pandemic analogous to the arrival of Eurasian crowd diseases in the new world.

Que a rise in epicurianism and stocism.

Those two trends rose up both times society was faced with similar systemic challenges to the survival of society (3rd/4th century AD and again in the 14th century AD).

[Multiplum]

Que a rise in epicurianism and stocism.

Those two trends rose up both times society was faced with similar systemic challenges to the survival of society (3rd/4th century AD and again in the 14th century AD).

I would love to read about this, if you know a good site for it online. I guess these qualify as paradigm shifts. We could probably use one right about now. Preferably without millions upon millions suffering to get there, but that's unlikely.

[Michael]

I would love to read about this, if you know a good site for it online. I guess these qualify as paradigm shifts. We could probably use one right about now. Preferably without millions upon millions suffering to get there, but that's unlikely.

They are not very interesting at all as they are philosophic schools of escapism.

In the 3rd/4th century, Rome was collapsing and barbarian invaders were threatening to overrun the Empire. Instead of rising to the challenge, Roman society retreated into private pleasures and abandoned engagement with civil society.

Same thing happened in the 14th century when the plague hit. Instead of spuring science to address the problem, society turned inward and retreated into theology (private salvation) and capitalism (private profit).

These are not noble trends. They are escapist. I'm merely predicting that similar 'existential' challenges to our current society will likely spur the same response of withdrawl and hedonism.

[Multiplum]

They are not very interesting at all as they are philosophic schools of escapism.

In the 3rd/4th century, Rome was collapsing and barbarian invaders were threatening to overrun the Empire. Instead of rising to the challenge, Roman society retreated into private pleasures and abandoned engagement with civil society.

Same thing happened in the 14th century when the plague hit. Instead of spuring science to address the problem, society turned inward and retreated into theology (private salvation) and capitalism (private profit).

These are not noble trends. They are escapist. I'm merely predicting that similar 'existential' challenges to our current society will likely spur the same response of withdrawl and hedonism.

I'm ignorant of history. For some reason I thought you meant people turned to reason during those times.

I'm not quite as pessimistic. I really believe the scientific community will work to address an emerging crisis.

On the other hand, they (we? :read: ) will probably be met with a collective "fuck off" from politicians and the general public in line with your prediction.

[evanescence]

Absolutely. What's really unfair is that the overuse of antibiotics won't lead to diseases that discriminate based on who has used more. It's one big collective breeding ground for resistant strains, that, I suspect, eventually will lead to the emergence of a new strain we do not possess means to handle. Kind of like the infinite amount of chimps on typewriters. A naturally healthy immune system can mean nothing when faced with something completely foreign.

Imagine a modern pandemic analogous to the arrival of Eurasian crowd diseases in the new world.

As usual, everyone suffers from the actions of a few. There's no doubt that Big Pharma pushes the over use of anti biotics. When my daughter developed a minor skin condition, the doctor automatically wanted to put her on a very potent prescription used by asthma patients. I said no. :mad:

They are not very interesting at all as they are philosophic schools of escapism.

In the 3rd/4th century, Rome was collapsing and barbarian invaders were threatening to overrun the Empire. Instead of rising to the challenge, Roman society retreated into private pleasures and abandoned engagement with civil society.

Same thing happened in the 14th century when the plague hit. Instead of spuring science to address the problem, society turned inward and retreated into theology (private salvation) and capitalism (private profit).

These are not noble trends. They are escapist. I'm merely predicting that similar 'existential' challenges to our current society will likely spur the same response of withdrawl and hedonism.

Excellent point about escapism. I never considered that before..

[Americano]

As usual, everyone suffers from the actions of a few. There's no doubt that Big Pharma pushes the over use of anti biotics. When my daughter developed a minor skin condition, the doctor automatically wanted to put her on a very potent prescription used by asthma patients. I said no. :mad:

You're not the general public. An MD friend related how most mothers demand antibiotics for everything from the sniffles to a runny nose. Two primary motivations; working mothers who need the pass for day care purposes and mothers who simply detest the inconvenience of a sick child. Even though it's carefully explained to them that antibiotics require time to become effective, many demand them or threaten to use a different physician to get it.

Excellent point about escapism. I never considered that before..

[evanescence]

You're not the general public. An MD friend related how most mothers demand antibiotics for everything from the sniffles to a runny nose. Two primary motivations; working mothers who need the pass for day care purposes and mothers who simply detest the inconvenience of a sick child. Even though it's carefully explained to them that antibiotics require time to become effective, many demand them or threaten to use a different physician to get it.

They're idiots. Plain and simple.

[The Drunk Girl]

They're idiots. Plain and simple.

You know I should be used to it, but sometimes I am still amazed at people's level of stupidity.

[Americano]

You know I should be used to it, but sometimes I am still amazed at people's level of stupidity.

That shouldn't last much longer.

[Michael]

You know I should be used to it, but sometimes I am still amazed at people's level of stupidity.

I'm in the opposite camp - being the cynic that I am. :D

I'm delightfully surprised when I encounter people that aren't outrageously stupid! :lol:

[The Drunk Girl]

I'm in the opposite camp - being the cynic that I am. :D

I'm delightfully surprised when I encounter people that aren't outrageously stupid! :lol:

Well, yes I am the same way. It's always like, "where have you been my entire life?" I know the world is full of dipshits, but I guess what surprises me so much is why people do what they do sometimes (and the extremes they go to). Seriously, I just want to say, "what the fuck possessed you to do that? Why did that seem like a good idea to begin with?"

After I would hypothetically say that, I would then hypothetically beat their dumbfuck face(s) into a pulp.

[The Drunk Girl]

That shouldn't last much longer.

If only I had you as a father the world would be a better place :angel:

;)

[The Drunk Guy]

Sorry, but going with theme of recent comments, I would like submit the lyrics to Aenima by Tool. Enjoy!

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks


Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.


Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.


It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks


Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.


Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.


Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this


Silly shit, stupid shit...


One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.


Learn to swim.


Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.


Learn to swim.


Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.


Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.


Learn to swim.


Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.


Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.


Learn to swim.


Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.


Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.


Learn to swim.


Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.


Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.


Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.


I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.
I wanna see it all come down.


suck it down.
flush it down.

[Americano]

Sorry, but going with theme of recent comments, I would like submit the lyrics to Aenima by Tool. Enjoy!

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks


Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.


Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.


It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks


Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.


Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.


Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this


Silly shit, stupid shit...


One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.


Learn to swim.


Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.


Learn to swim.


Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.


Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.


Learn to swim.


Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.


Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.


Learn to swim.


Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.


Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.


Learn to swim.


Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.


Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.


Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.


I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.
I wanna see it all come down.


suck it down.
flush it down.

Sounds like a replay of Jack Kerouac's Beat Generation. When beat still meant weary.

[evanescence]

Love Tool!

[JHC]

You're not the general public. An MD friend related how most mothers demand antibiotics for everything from the sniffles to a runny nose. Two primary motivations; working mothers who need the pass for day care purposes and mothers who simply detest the inconvenience of a sick child. Even though it's carefully explained to them that antibiotics require time to become effective, many demand them or threaten to use a different physician to get it.

Well damn nation! If a doctor sets you up with a 3:00 appointment and you get your snot nosed kid in to actually see the doctor at 4:00 for 10 minutes, I think he can lose a couple!

Seriously though, I hate when doctors blame the patients for "demanding" antibiotics. What does the doctor do when they demand oxycontin or a leg amputation for persistent planter warts?

I'd also like to say, that I am heartened to see that we are the general public and we do seem to be thinkers. Doesn't that make you feel better? :)

[Americano]

Well damn nation! If a doctor sets you up with a 3:00 appointment and you get your snot nosed kid in to actually see the doctor at 4:00 for 10 minutes, I think he can lose a couple!

Seriously though, I hate when doctors blame the patients for "demanding" antibiotics. What does the doctor do when they demand oxycontin or a leg amputation for persistent planter warts?

The demand for Oxycontin here is so high that prescriptions for it are cross referenced by patient name in a database accessed by licensed pharmacists before filling any prescription for it or other serious pain killers. I've read of six different prescriptions being obtained from different MDs in a single day. Street price is $1/mg, which drives people seeking it for resale to devise some unusual schemes in attempting to obtain it. Burglaries? First places they hit are medicine cabinets, bedside tables and kitchen cupboards near the water.

Amputations? No idea what that demand level is.

I'd also like to say, that I am heartened to see that we are the general public and we do seem to be thinkers. Doesn't that make you feel better? :)The general public as thinkers. There's a novel idea. Between reality shows or before the game comes on?

[evanescence]

The demand for Oxycontin here is so high that prescriptions for it are cross referenced by patient name in a database accessed by licensed pharmacists before filling any prescription for it or other serious pain killers. I've read of six different prescriptions being obtained from different MDs in a single day. Street price is $1/mg, which drives people seeking it for resale to devise some unusual schemes in attempting to obtain it. Burglaries? First places they hit are medicine cabinets, bedside tables and kitchen cupboards near the water.

Amputations? No idea what that demand level is.

The general public as thinkers. There's a novel idea. Between reality shows or before the game comes on?

60-80 bucks for Oxys here. Only 8 bucks for hydros.

[Americano]

60-80 bucks for Oxys here. Only 8 bucks for hydros.

Demand drives supply. US military occupation of Afghanistan has somehow flooded the world market with a surplus of Afghan heroin. In the US imported heroin interests are unable to expand their stable market share due to wide availability of legal/illegal opiates and synthetic equivalents in pill/capsule form. US bandits now hijack trucks leaving distribution centers with desired pharmaceuticals cargo. Far more efficient and hygienic for a user than having to source needles and risk a hot shot.

But, let's do get those borders sealed and eliminate common US drug addiction societal problems caused by those foreigners and their drugs!

[evanescence]

Demand drives supply. US military occupation of Afghanistan has somehow flooded the world market with a surplus of Afghan heroin. In the US imported heroin interests are unable to expand their stable market share due to wide availability of legal/illegal opiates and synthetic equivalents in pill/capsule form. US bandits now hijack trucks leaving distribution centers with desired pharmaceuticals cargo. Far more efficient and hygienic for a user than having to source needles and risk a hot shot.

But, let's do get those borders sealed and eliminate common US drug addiction societal problems caused by those foreigners and their drugs!

:lol:

I find it ironic that the most ardent (self proclaimed) "free market capitalist" is often against legalizing or at least decriminalizing drugs. Using the supply-demand model, this is the most logical step. :shrug:

[Non Sequitur]

:lol:

I find it ironic that the most ardent (self proclaimed) "free market capitalist" is often against legalizing or at least decriminalizing drugs. Using the supply-demand model, this is the most logical step. :shrug:

I think the issue is not about what is most efficient from a market perspective. If you really pressed the ardent supporters of the status quo I think they would grant you that the supply and demand system is certainly in favor of decriminalization. Their problem would probably be rooted in some form of moral/ethical concerns. If pressed to clearly define their position I bet the answer would be that beyond alcohol and tobacco, which society by virtue of tradition has allowed, drugs are morally offensive and should not be permitted by society. Their response would be something like "just because the demand is there does not mean that we should bow to the pressure"

Now of course this is still inconsistent. Many people have no problem with greed or gluttony that our system encourages. However, this issue is not about the supply and demand.

[Americano]

I think the issue is not about what is most efficient from a market perspective. If you really pressed the ardent supporters of the status quo I think they would grant you that the supply and demand system is certainly in favor of decriminalization. Their problem would probably be rooted in some form of moral/ethical concerns. If pressed to clearly define their position I bet the answer would be that beyond alcohol and tobacco, which society by virtue of tradition has allowed, drugs are morally offensive and should not be permitted by society. Their response would be something like "just because the demand is there does not mean that we should bow to the pressure"

Now of course this is still inconsistent. Many people have no problem with greed or gluttony that our system encourages. However, this issue is not about the supply and demand.

I personally believe control of moral legislation and enforcement in this instance is directly attributable to lobbying efforts by the pharmaceutical, LE and transportation industries. No citations but that's a very powerful, combined sector to dislodge with logic. Those industries do own members of our governing system who chair important decision making processes. Anything that threatens to restrict financial ambition by a significant monopoly is faced with challenges that would have been approved by any one of say the Mongol Conquers.

[Non Sequitur]

I personally believe control of moral legislation and enforcement in this instance is directly attributable to lobbying efforts by the pharmaceutical, LE and transportation industries. No citations but that's a very powerful, combined sector to dislodge with logic. Those industries do own members of our governing system who chair important decision making processes. Anything that threatens to restrict financial ambition by a significant monopoly is faced with challenges that would have been approved by any one of say the Mongol Conquers.

You attribute the moral component to lobbying? Certainly I would agree that those industries play a role in the current structure of the law, but I think it is overstating the effectiveness of corporations to say they are responsible for the moral component of the debate. The pharmaceutical industry probably supports the moral opinion, but I doubt they have the power to create that opinion.

[Americano]

You attribute the moral component to lobbying? Certainly I would agree that those industries play a role in the current structure of the law, but I think it is overstating the effectiveness of corporations to say they are responsible for the moral component of the debate. The pharmaceutical industry probably supports the moral opinion, but I doubt they have the power to create that opinion.

The moral opinion is supported by somewhat recent legislation making possession/consumption of opiates and their synthetic counterparts without a prescription a serious crime. Yet methadone, a synthetic heroin used to maintain heroin addicts, is widely available by prescription from an approved supplier. Ask any junkie and you'll be informed that methadone is no different than heroin with the best part being its legality and wide availability. Oxycontin enjoys that same status. Buy it from an approved supplier with a prescription and enjoy your addiction. Buy heroin on the street and risk jail.

How was that legislation put in place? Certainly not from the apathetic general public deciding morphine, heroin and cocaine were bad for them and drug stores shouldn't be allowed to continue selling it over-the-counter for pennies. Politicians certainly don't perform without incentives. Why not make it a sin and control the legitimate supply through government authorized outlets while enjoying immensely profitable monopolies enforced by police and the judicial system?

Who would have the motivation to create monopolies and enforce them?

[Michael]

I think the issue is not about what is most efficient from a market perspective. If you really pressed the ardent supporters of the status quo I think they would grant you that the supply and demand system is certainly in favor of decriminalization. Their problem would probably be rooted in some form of moral/ethical concerns. If pressed to clearly define their position I bet the answer would be that beyond alcohol and tobacco, which society by virtue of tradition has allowed, drugs are morally offensive and should not be permitted by society. Their response would be something like "just because the demand is there does not mean that we should bow to the pressure"

Now of course this is still inconsistent. Many people have no problem with greed or gluttony that our system encourages. However, this issue is not about the supply and demand.
Yes and no. You make a good argument here and it is true to some extent with respect to the public. Indeed, the same can be said of 'kiddie porn' - the government and private industry could make a fortune if it was legalized and taxed, but "just because the demand is there does not mean we should bow to the pressure" is equally applicable here as well.

That is to say, the moral argument is certainly there and stands on its own merits, regardless of any capitalist or supply/demand issues.

But I said, "yes and no" because, as Americano is arguing, the real reason that pot is illegal and oxycotin is legal is because of special interest lobbying, not morality. The morality of right/wrong only seems to be used to politically defend the status quo, it wasn't used to create the original laws that created the status quo that is being defended.

I personally believe control of moral legislation and enforcement in this instance is directly attributable to lobbying efforts by the pharmaceutical, LE and transportation industries. No citations but that's a very powerful, combined sector to dislodge with logic. Those industries do own members of our governing system who chair important decision making processes. Anything that threatens to restrict financial ambition by a significant monopoly is faced with challenges that would have been approved by any one of say the Mongol Conquers.
Agreed. Pot was originally made illegal back in the 1920's based on lobbying by the oil industry because they feared hemp-based ethanol as a serious competitor to fostering gasoline-addiction in the USA.

The 'morality' argument of 'pot is evil' comes afterwards in the 1950s and 1960s.

You attribute the moral component to lobbying? Certainly I would agree that those industries play a role in the current structure of the law, but I think it is overstating the effectiveness of corporations to say they are responsible for the moral component of the debate. The pharmaceutical industry probably supports the moral opinion, but I doubt they have the power to create that opinion.
Again, yes and no.

It is true, as I pointed to above, that the morality argument stands independent of the market argument (theoretically or by definition) but in reality of modern politics, this is not entirely so. Moral opinions of the masses can and are routinely manufactured or manipulated by political propaganda (public relations and advertising) paid for by these same corporations.

The moral opinion is supported by somewhat recent legislation making possession/consumption of opiates and their synthetic counterparts without a prescription a serious crime. Yet methadone, a synthetic heroin used to maintain heroin addicts, is widely available by prescription from an approved supplier. Ask any junkie and you'll be informed that methadone is no different than heroin with the best part being its legality and wide availability. Oxycontin enjoys that same status. Buy it from an approved supplier with a prescription and enjoy your addiction. Buy heroin on the street and risk jail.

How was that legislation put in place? Certainly not from the apathetic general public deciding morphine, heroin and cocaine were bad for them and drug stores shouldn't be allowed to continue selling it over-the-counter for pennies. Politicians certainly don't perform without incentives. Why not make it a sin and control the legitimate supply through government authorized outlets while enjoying immensely profitable monopolies enforced by police and the judicial system?

Who would have the motivation to create monopolies and enforce them?
The bolded sentence is key here. I was just arguing this issue last night (offline) that under our form of pseudo-democracy, governments and politicians do not lead society - they follow it or reflect it.

[Americano]

The bolded sentence is key here. I was just arguing this issue last night (offline) that under our form of pseudo-democracy, governments and politicians do not lead society - they follow it or reflect it.

Which brings forth the question of who does lead US societal trends. Certainly not the general public nor their elected representatives. Bags of money are required and with US investment policy that general public eagerly responds with capital which is utilized to create monopolies by directing political representation to enact legislation protecting those monopolies. Politicians easily rationalize their self-serving actions with the usual blanket statement of protecting the people.

Government regulation has long been a favored corporate tool for eliminating competition. Owning compliant politicians a necessary component of that strategy.

[Non Sequitur]

Yes and no. You make a good argument here and it is true to some extent with respect to the public. Indeed, the same can be said of 'kiddie porn' - the government and private industry could make a fortune if it was legalized and taxed, but "just because the demand is there does not mean we should bow to the pressure" is equally applicable here as well.

That is to say, the moral argument is certainly there and stands on its own merits, regardless of any capitalist or supply/demand issues.

But I said, "yes and no" because, as Americano is arguing, the real reason that pot is illegal and oxycotin is legal is because of special interest lobbying, not morality. The morality of right/wrong only seems to be used to politically defend the status quo, it wasn't used to create the original laws that created the status quo that is being defended.


Agreed. Pot was originally made illegal back in the 1920's based on lobbying by the oil industry because they feared hemp-based ethanol as a serious competitor to fostering gasoline-addiction in the USA.

The 'morality' argument of 'pot is evil' comes afterwards in the 1950s and 1960s.


Again, yes and no.

It is true, as I pointed to above, that the morality argument stands independent of the market argument (theoretically or by definition) but in reality of modern politics, this is not entirely so. Moral opinions of the masses can and are routinely manufactured or manipulated by political propaganda (public relations and advertising) paid for by these same corporations.


The bolded sentence is key here. I was just arguing this issue last night (offline) that under our form of pseudo-democracy, governments and politicians do not lead society - they follow it or reflect it.

Ah, well then I think we are in agreement about why the system is the way it is. As I said, the structure of the law is effected by the pharmaceutical industry. I was just saying that the moral argument is it's own issue.

[evanescence]

I think the issue is not about what is most efficient from a market perspective. If you really pressed the ardent supporters of the status quo I think they would grant you that the supply and demand system is certainly in favor of decriminalization. Their problem would probably be rooted in some form of moral/ethical concerns. If pressed to clearly define their position I bet the answer would be that beyond alcohol and tobacco, which society by virtue of tradition has allowed, drugs are morally offensive and should not be permitted by society. Their response would be something like "just because the demand is there does not mean that we should bow to the pressure"

Now of course this is still inconsistent. Many people have no problem with greed or gluttony that our system encourages. However, this issue is not about the supply and demand.

So basically, they are hypocrites.

[evanescence]

You attribute the moral component to lobbying? Certainly I would agree that those industries play a role in the current structure of the law, but I think it is overstating the effectiveness of corporations to say they are responsible for the moral component of the debate. The pharmaceutical industry probably supports the moral opinion, but I doubt they have the power to create that opinion.

Reefer Madness is an example of ridiculous propaganda created for the sole purpose of misinformation. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if lobbying and special interests were somehow involved.

[Non Sequitur]

So basically, they are hypocrites.

Reefer Madness is an example of ridiculous propaganda created for the sole purpose of misinformation. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if lobbying and special interests were somehow involved.

Well, I did not say hypocrites on purpose. Also, as I said I am willing to say that the various industries that have supported the moral argument but the moral argument does stand on it's own.

[Americano]

So basically, they are hypocrites.

More common that not when money and/or morals are involved.

[evanescence]

Well, I did not say hypocrites on purpose. Also, as I said I am willing to say that the various industries that have supported the moral argument but the moral argument does stand on it's own.

It rarely does.

[evanescence]

More common that not when money and/or morals are involved.

Money is the actual reason behind legislation. Morality is used as a ploy for the masses, so that they except legislation without question. (or with as few questions as possible). Luckily for Wall Street and Washington, Americans care more about spectator sports and sitcoms.

[Zarquon]

Well, I did not say hypocrites on purpose. Also, as I said I am willing to say that the various industries that have supported the moral argument but the moral argument does stand on it's own.
It does not.

[Non Sequitur]

It does not.

ok :shrug:

[Non Sequitur]

It rarely does.

Sure because such things do not occur in a vacuum. All I was trying to say was that it is not a supply and demand issue for many who are against legalization.

[evanescence]

Sure because such things do not occur in a vacuum. All I was trying to say was that it is not a supply and demand issue for many who are against legalization.

Such things rarely occur at all. There's an old saying: He who has the gold makes the rules. That is the real "Golden Rule".

[Americano]

Such things rarely occur at all. There's an old saying: He who has the gold makes the rules. That is the real "Golden Rule".

I think you can carry it another step to include individuals, belief systems and governments who have the gold dictate commonly adhered to morality. Before divorce became common in Catholicism I well remember friends and acquaintances joking (not really) about buying a stained glass window to facilitate their divorce actions.

[Non Sequitur]

Such things rarely occur at all. There's an old saying: He who has the gold makes the rules. That is the real "Golden Rule".

haha, well to respond to that adequately I would have to drift into the law vs morality and a religious discussion would take this thread off topic. :D

[evanescence]

I think you can carry it another step to include individuals, belief systems and governments who have the gold dictate commonly adhered to morality. Before divorce became common in Catholicism I well remember friends and acquaintances joking (not really) about buying a stained glass window to facilitate their divorce actions.

Someone stood to make money by preventing those divorces. :lol: But seriously, morality benefits those who make and/or enforce morality, not the followers.

[evanescence]

haha, well to respond to that adequately I would have to drift into the law vs morality and a religious discussion would take this thread off topic. :D

Well this is sort of a broad topic. :)

[Americano]

Someone stood to make money by preventing those divorces. :lol: But seriously, morality benefits those who make and/or enforce morality, not the followers.

Followers seem to enjoy dining on dogma with an appropriate guilt or fear sauce.

[Non Sequitur]

Followers seem to enjoy dining on dogma with an appropriate guilt or fear sauce.

"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" I'm pretty sure you don't mean fear in the same sense Proverbs does, but hey :lol:

[evanescence]

Followers seem to enjoy dining on dogma with an appropriate guilt or fear sauce.

I wonder why humans choose to be punished like that? If choosing Escapism, it would be better to choose something less..unkind. :shrug:

[Michael]

Followers seem to enjoy dining on dogma with an appropriate guilt or fear sauce.

Oddly enough, guilt and/or fear seem to sell really well. :shrug:

[evanescence]

Oddly enough, guilt and/or fear seem to sell really well. :shrug:

People especially like to watch other people suffer and be humiliated. Now that's entertainment!

[Michael]

People especially like to watch other people suffer and be humiliated. Now that's entertainment!

That's true, but the issue here is the way the government/media 'sells' fear and the people line up to 'buy' it.

That seems weird.

[evanescence]

That's true, but the issue here is the way the government/media 'sells' fear and the people line up to 'buy' it.

That seems weird.

I find violence extremely entertaining.

[The Drunk Girl]

I find violence extremely entertaining.

So I take it you will be going to view the new Saw 3D movie?

[Michael]

I find violence extremely entertaining.

This appears to be an American cultural trait. :shrug:

[Americano]

I find violence extremely entertaining.

Your government spreading democracy has kept you constantly entertained for nine years.

[evanescence]

So I take it you will be going to view the new Saw 3D movie?

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff93/evanescence_3/icon_chainsaw.gif

:lol:

This appears to be an American cultural trait. :shrug:



Your government spreading democracy has kept you constantly entertained for nine years.

I think that is somehow connected. A thirst for violence is necessary for world domination.

[JHC]

Christian Science Monitor - Staph in Meat (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0416/Staph-in-meat-Are-US-cattle-and-poultry-over-drugged)


I saw this article today and it reminded me of this thread.

[Michael]

I think that is somehow connected. A thirst for violence is necessary for world domination.

Then why did the Brits outlaw slavery in 1834 at the height of their imperial power and world-wide military dominance?

[evanescence]

Then why did the Brits outlaw slavery in 1834 at the height of their imperial power and world-wide military dominance?

Literature and emotionalism? :shrug:

[Non Sequitur]

Literature and emotionalism? :shrug:

Well at least something can trump the thirst for violence then.

[evanescence]

Well at least something can trump the thirst for violence then.

The thing about public opinion is it is fickle. Who knows? Maybe we'll go the other direction at some point.