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Michael
Apr 19th 2010, 10:19 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Battle_of_crecy_froissart.jpg
Image is the Battle of Crecy by Froissart.

One of the most remarkable weapons in the history of warfare has to be the [so-called] English Longbow. The origin is in fact Welsh, but it was in the hands of the English of the 14th century that showed just how powerful that weapon could be.

If you ever wondered how England could have waged war against France for over a hundred years straight back in the 14th/15th century, given that France was about eight times as populous and considerably more wealthy by every measure - the answer is the longbow.

With little more than a few thousand expert longbows, almost any position could be held in the face of the most overwhelming odds, against far superior numbers of opponents. Time and time again, the cream of French chivalry charged the English lines to their death. Battle after battle, the results are repeated. The only thing that stopped the English from conquering the whole of France was the fact that the longbow wasn't very effective as an offensive weapon. In defense though, it was unsurpassed.

Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt are the 'big three' most famous battles where massive and superior French armies were utterly destroyed when they charged against comparatively smaller numbers of English troops - armed with longbows.

Anyway, the one really truly and interesting fact about the English Longbow is that it wasn't until the Napoleonic era that gunpowder muskets achieved sufficient firepower to out-shoot the old English Longbow. Theoretically speaking, the Brits could have ignored the expensive use of muskets and instead relied upon the longbow for defense against the musket-armed opponents of the 16th/17th and 18th century!

I remember the first time I read about that - it really freaked me out - why didn't Britain keep using the longbow given that it was so much cheaper (and more powerful) than muskets and gunpowder? It was a rather similar weapon. Or alternatively, why didn't the French equip their own battalions of longbows to counter the threat of the English? Its not like the technology was a secret or anything!

Anyway, it took me many years of study to figure out the answer. The key fact of the longbow is that it is only as powerful as a weapon if you devote half your life to using it. With the English, one particular social class adopted the weapon - the yeomanry. This is always the most important military class in classical society as I have long argued in respect of ancient Greek and Roman history. Of course in a feudal society, the yeomanry is a very small class to begin with. It is in fact a measure of the liberty and advancement of the English political economy that they had such a social class at all at that late feudal time period when almost all land was 'owned' by the King, nobles or the church.

Anyway, I think this social class is the reason that this weapon didn't really catch on anywhere else other than in Britain. Nobody else had much of a yeoman class at all at that time. The alleged French reply to the question of the longbow in the 14th century was that they'd be horrified (and stupid) to give that kind of a weapon to their peasants. That just underscores the point that the English Longbow was not a 'peasant' weapon. It took years of hard work, training and practice to become proficient with this weapon. And one had to keep up one's practice regularly for years or you'd lose it. Peasants didn't have the leisure time to devote to that kind of military specialization.

Even still, I think the British aristocracy was more than a little afraid of the longbow-armed yeoman class and that they weren't too keen on pushing to keep it in use. Firearms are much better weapons because they are expensive and that means they were hard for peasants to use against the government or the nobility.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this particularly interesting weapon. :)

Here's the Wiki page for the English Longbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow)

Donkey
Apr 19th 2010, 10:50 PM
Was it mass produced?

;)

andrewl
Apr 20th 2010, 12:08 AM
Cool. I am reading a historical fiction trilogy by Bernard Cornwell where one of the main themes is around the english longbow.

http://www.bernardcornwell.net/index2.cfm?page=1&seriesid=6

Not sure if you are into this type of fiction (or fiction at all) but i love historical fiction, particularly of the medieval British type.

Interesting to note that according to the these novels the english longbowman was not afforded the same social status as a swordsman. One could not rise to the same societal heights if one was a master at the bow. Also, when a longbowman was captured he was likely to have his fingers cut off and/or killed. He was not held for ransom or given the same treatment as a lord who rode horseback with a sword. The longbowman was often viewed as a coward who did not kill with the honor or artistry of a sword.

That might also be part of the explanation for why the longbow did not remain in the british arsenal. :shrug:

Andrew

andrewl
Apr 20th 2010, 12:11 AM
Was it mass produced?

;)

Good point.

Andrew

Michael
Apr 20th 2010, 09:43 AM
Was it mass produced?

;)

That's my point. Technologically, making these bows would be a whole lot cheaper and easier than manufacturing muskets and powder-shot.

But you could teach a peasant how to use a musket in a few weeks. It took many years to master the longbow.

Michael
Apr 20th 2010, 09:49 AM
Cool. I am reading a historical fiction trilogy by Bernard Cornwell where one of the main themes is around the english longbow.

http://www.bernardcornwell.net/index2.cfm?page=1&seriesid=6

Not sure if you are into this type of fiction (or fiction at all) but i love historical fiction, particularly of the medieval British type.

Interesting to note that according to the these novels the english longbowman was not afforded the same social status as a swordsman. One could not rise to the same societal heights if one was a master at the bow. Also, when a longbowman was captured he was likely to have his fingers cut off and/or killed. He was not held for ransom or given the same treatment as a lord who rode horseback with a sword. The longbowman was often viewed as a coward who did not kill with the honor or artistry of a sword.

That might also be part of the explanation for why the longbow did not remain in the british arsenal. :shrug:

Andrew
Yes, as I noted above, the English longbow was the preserve of the yeoman class alone - a class that didn't really exist in most feudal kingdoms at that time.

To be specific, the 'yeomanry' refers to that class of farmer who owns their own farm. Essentially, the yeomanry are prosperous farmers who tend to hire wage-labor to work their land.

This is of course rather different than the gentry or nobility who tended to own whole villages where the labor on the lord's fields was obligatory and hereditary.

And of course the sword was held in higher repute - it was the weapon of the nobility. But the longbow delivered English battlefield victories in a way that swords never did. When England used the longbow, England was very powerful and much feared. With the end of the longbow in the 16th century, the English fell back to being just another 3rd-ranked European power - entirely dependent upon the Royal Navy for defense of England.

Note: if the Spanish Armada got through in 1588, there was virtually ZERO English armies in England to counter an invaison of 40,000 Spanish troops. England would have become a province of Spain.

andrewl
Apr 20th 2010, 11:50 AM
Yes, as I noted above, the English longbow was the preserve of the yeoman class alone - a class that didn't really exist in most feudal kingdoms at that time.

To be specific, the 'yeomanry' refers to that class of farmer who owns their own farm. Essentially, the yeomanry are prosperous farmers who tend to hire wage-labor to work their land.

This is of course rather different than the gentry or nobility who tended to own whole villages where the labor on the lord's fields was obligatory and hereditary.

And of course the sword was held in higher repute - it was the weapon of the nobility. But the longbow delivered English battlefield victories in a way that swords never did. When England used the longbow, England was very powerful and much feared. With the end of the longbow in the 16th century, the English fell back to being just another 3rd-ranked European power - entirely dependent upon the Royal Navy for defense of England.

Note: if the Spanish Armada got through in 1588, there was virtually ZERO English armies in England to counter an invaison of 40,000 Spanish troops. England would have become a province of Spain.

The word yeoman must have went way over my head.... :erm:

Andrew

Donkey
Apr 20th 2010, 01:25 PM
That's my point. Technologically, making these bows would be a whole lot cheaper and easier than manufacturing muskets and powder-shot.

But you could teach a peasant how to use a musket in a few weeks. It took many years to master the longbow.
I was just making a dig about the post you lost. ;)

I wonder if there wasn't a psychological factor in the switch. The flash and bang of firearms certainly helped the Spanish dominate the Aztec, whose weaponry and manpower was vastly superior.

Michael
Apr 20th 2010, 01:44 PM
I was just making a dig about the post you lost. ;)

I wonder if there wasn't a psychological factor in the switch. The flash and bang of firearms certainly helped the Spanish dominate the Aztec, whose weaponry and manpower was vastly superior.
That was a rather unique event - hardly planned, known or understood by contemporaries in Europe at the time.

And I respectfully submit, that the English with longbows could have beat the 16th century Spanish army, even if outnumbered 2:1.

No, I think the longbow died because it empowered a political class that was not the aristocracy.